Most of you are missing the point!

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

Setting up your team, including substitutes, and deciding on formations and tactics are managerial bread and butter.

In this respect Chris Hughton generally does okay. But then you have plenty of time to think about it outside of the heat of battle.

But a good manager reads the game and his players in match time. He uses instinct and gets it right when the pressure is on and in this respect Chris Hughton generally does poorly, because he is a coach. He is the commanding officer who can do it on the parade ground but not on the battlefield.

Time and again we see opposition managers, successful because they are EPL managers of ability, change games and do us over.

Spurs was an exception, Chris screwed up from the start, but he simply doesn''t do changes and he knows it, that''s why he dithers and takes so long, he has no instinct for it. Occasionally, when the chips are fully down he throws everything in because he has to, as at Watford, and gets a break.

I have laughed my socks off on various media where fans are pointing to Hughton''s substitutions today and trying to pass them off as the fans fault as they want more enterprise. Is he really that gullible and naive he reacts as he did because of fan criticism in very different match circumstances where he was wrong to be cautious?

He set the team up well today and the side played well enjoying 43% of possession at The Emirates where we have played well in recent times. The side fell to good goals and didn''t let their heads drop and at that point I was seeing the circumstances as a confidence builder if the game stopped there and then.

So, a side capable of coming back like that, in Chris''s opinion needed breaking up with all the loss of momentum. No like for like with tired players but stripping the DM out and going at a side who had just scored when we were pressing upfield.

As we were why wouldn''t we continue to make chances? Who at that point was more likely to get the next goal? Arsenal were nervous and Hughton gave them the break they needed.

Did something in his brain say he needed to take this opportunity to appease his critics and throw caution to the wind?

Hughton''s job is to make pressure decisions, he can''t and has proved that time and again. As a coach he can prepare and set up but as a manager he proves time and again he simply does not have it.

What will he do next week in a game we simply have to win? And how much confidence do the players have in the man who pulls the strings?

[havemyhowsonit 0]

The bloke is tactically useless.

Can''t read a football match to save his life.

Destroyed both Chelsea and today''s game with terrible sub decisions.

Like having a winning card hand. Then handing it over to the other player on the table.

Houghton out!!!

[im spartacus canary 0]

very good post, redmond on for either of the wingers fair enough,but  hoolahan on for tetty was like the charge of the light brigade, foolhardy at best negligent at worst ... amongst all the hysteria, pant wetting, and blind optimism this post really does hit the nail on the head if we do survive it will be inspite of hughton    OTBC

[Scottlarock 3]

....an excellent post , you''re quite right.

[CDMullins 436]

Its fair to say Hughton cant win,He doesnt make changes - He gets slatedHe brings on like for like - He gets slatedHe brings off a defensive player for a attacking player - He gets slatedHe brings off a attacking player for a defensive player - He gets slatedAll these are regardless of results, performance, opposition or any other mitigating circumstancesThe Hugton out brigade will say his changes are poor,The Pro-Hughtoner''s will say he''s doing what the ''Hughton Outers'' want him to do!I feel for the bloke,  took us to a higher finish than another manager has for over 2 decades, higher than the massiah, yet people were calling for his head before the end of August.

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

Hughton is paid a lot of money to get it right along with being supported by the 9th highest transfer outlay in Europe this summer.

As Eric Morecombe once said: he is playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the correct order.

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

It''s fair to say Hughton can''t win....

You might as well have just stopped there.

[Matt Juler 148]

[quote user="CDMullins"]I feel for the bloke,  took us to a higher finish than another manager has for over 2 decades, higher than the massiah, yet people were calling for his head before the end of August.[/quote]That''s because a lot of us look at more than a final league position, we see a much bigger picture that includes a shocking run of results post Christmas 2012, staring relegation in the eye until the penultimate weekend of the season, no plan B, let alone C, D, E etc., and most of all he''s got the resources but just can''t put the jigsaw together.  No previous Norwich manager has had a squad half as good as this, but we''re bottom three.

[City 2nd 191]

CDMullins wrote the following post at 2013-10-20 3:52 AM:

......took us to a higher finish than another manager has for over 2 decades, higher than the massiah, yet people were calling for his head before the end of August.

Last season is history, and simply does not come into it at all - the manager was allowed to strengthen the squad which he did with some quality players, but we are not ''progressing'' at all, which is the mandate for this season - we do not look like scoring goals or winning games consistently, and that is what it is all about, being consistent over the season - it''s no good everyone saying we must beat Cardiff - we need to beat all who come to FCR now, and pick up more points away to stand any chance of staying up at all, and quite honestly we do not look like we will at this time.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

[quote user="Matt Juler"][quote user="CDMullins"]I feel for the bloke,  took us to a higher finish than another manager has for over 2 decades, higher than the massiah, yet people were calling for his head before the end of August.[/quote]That''s because a lot of us look at more than a final league position, we see a much bigger picture that includes a shocking run of results post Christmas 2012, staring relegation in the eye until the penultimate weekend of the season, no plan B, let alone C, D, E etc., and most of all he''s got the resources but just can''t put the jigsaw together.  No previous Norwich manager has had a squad half as good as this, but we''re bottom three.[/quote]

 

Well there''s a thing! Matt''s views aren''t just his own anymore. He''s now speaking on behalf of the group again. Although whether it''s the Hughton outers or the caps he hasn''t made plain.

 

As for the OP. Well I have some sympathy with the view he peddles that at 2-1 if we''d settled for what we hadn''t got we might have just nicked something. But then bringing on more attacking players could have pumped up the players into another revolt where they ignored his instructions and went for it as the op believed happened against Everton last season. But then he may have left it and as the players tired Arsenal could have gone up through the gears and ended up with 5 or 6. You just never know. But what is tiring is wheeling out the same tired arguments that Hughton should have done the opposite to what he actually did do.

 

On yer bike Rudolph.

 

 

[tom cavendish 0]

Looking at Hughton''s substitutions v Arsenal he should have brought Redmond on for Snodgrass rather than Pilkington because at least Pilkington was getting into some good positions in the box.If Hughton was going to bring Wes on then it should have been for Howson because yet again Howson was failing to provide any service for the striker. The fact that Howson had scored a goal probably influenced his judgement.Tettey & Fer again looked solid and Arsenal took control the moment that Tettey was substituted.Judging from Hughton''s comments he has taken responsibly for his own mistakes.

[Robert911 0]

[quote user="CDMullins"]Its fair to say Hughton cant win,He doesnt make changes - He gets slatedHe brings on like for like - He gets slatedHe brings off a defensive player for a attacking player - He gets slatedHe brings off a attacking player for a defensive player - He gets slatedAll these are regardless of results, performance, opposition or any other mitigating circumstancesThe Hugton out brigade will say his changes are poor,The Pro-Hughtoner''s will say he''s doing what the ''Hughton Outers'' want him to do!I feel for the bloke,  took us to a higher finish than another manager has for over 2 decades, higher than the massiah, yet people were calling for his head before the end of August.[/quote]Didn''t Jas write a similar post? Every other thread?

[HampsteadCanary 0]

Tom I agree with you here, I think the Chelsea game should have taught us that leaving ourselves open at the back to push on to get a winner/equaliser against top 4 opposition will normally end up with us getting punished. We don''t have enough pace in defence to go all out against these sides, and if the momentum is in our favour against a top 4 team with 15 mins to go, just one like for like sub in a forward position is probably the way to go. I know this is in hindsight, but lessons should be learnt from today and chelsea. Go all out against lesser teams to get points, but maybe Hughton''s measured approach is better suited for the better teams in the league.

[Dubai Mark 0]

At 2-1 down away to the best team in the league currently and time running out, surely he made the right decisions, he gambled to try and get a point knowing that he also risked conceeding another goal or two......very similar to what everyone has been crying out for him to do......"thats what PL would have done" I have heard many cry oh so many times! Why would he keep the same team and tactics and simply change just one player without changing things in an attempt to get more opportunities to that one player to score. Nutty Nigel, I am with you and the majority!  

[Jim Smith 2,314]

CD Mullins he can win simply by making the right substitutions for once. The Tettey sub yesterday was simply appalling and as the OP has stated was indicative of his (and the rest of the coaching staffs) complete inability to actually read a game or respond to what is happening on the pitch. As soon as he did it we could not get the ball and they poured through the middle at will. Pilks also should have been taken off much earlier.

For what it''s worth I don''t blame him for Chelsea that was just unfortunate individual errors.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="alartz"]Destroyed both Chelsea and today''s game with terrible sub decisions.

Like having a winning card hand. Then handing it over to the other player on the table.[/quote]1-1 against Chelsea and sensing the chance for a win.2-1 down against Arsenal and wanting to chase for an equaliser.At what point was he holding a "winning card hand"?

[Joanna Grey 0]

Rudolph once said that Lambert would lead us to failure as well, and look what happened there. Can we have an ignore button for the eternal whingers and doom merchants?

[Jim Smith 2,314]

It''s a legitimate point though. name one example of a match where Hughton''s substitutions have turned/changed the game?

Only examples I can think of are Kamara against Everton and st a push the subs at Watford this season but then I''m not sure the latter was not more luck than judgment since he even left those subs very late. Whether you want Hughton out or in his apparently inability to read games and think on his feet is a real worry. He has to have a ten minute conference with on if those two losers we have as assistants before deciding on any substitution at all.

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

After we beat Stoke, most of us were missing the point, in that it ''was about the performance, and not the results''. Or, that we had a ''defensive, inept manager who never attacks away from home''. So easy to be an expert on Sunday, eh?After 2 good attacking performances with positive substitutions against quality opposition, I guess we need a new stick to beat Hughton with. Still, at least this one is better than the ''too gracious in press conferences'' one.I can''t wait to find out what point I''m going to be informed that I''m missing next week.

[grefstad 0]

[quote user="Dubai Mark"]At 2-1 down away to the best team in the league currently and time running out, surely he made the right decisions, he gambled to try and get a point knowing that he also risked conceeding another goal or two......very similar to what everyone has been crying out for him to do......"thats what PL would have done" I have heard many cry oh so many times! Why would he keep the same team and tactics and simply change just one player without changing things in an attempt to get more opportunities to that one player to score. Nutty Nigel, I am with you and the majority!  [/quote]

Got no complaints at Hughtons subs today, but at 2-1 down, and 10 mins left, he could thrown Bechio on and go a little longer, as Hooper clearly need someone at his side.

Wes for Tettey could have been because of Tetteys head injury, but otherwise I would perhaps expected Wes to start vs Arsenals diminuitive midfield.

Hughton tried for the point, fair enough.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

[quote user="grefstad"][quote user="Dubai Mark"]At 2-1 down away to the best team in the league currently and time running out, surely he made the right decisions, he gambled to try and get a point knowing that he also risked conceeding another goal or two......very similar to what everyone has been crying out for him to do......"thats what PL would have done" I have heard many cry oh so many times! Why would he keep the same team and tactics and simply change just one player without changing things in an attempt to get more opportunities to that one player to score. Nutty Nigel, I am with you and the majority!  [/quote]

Got no complaints at Hughtons subs today, but at 2-1 down, and 10 mins left, he could thrown Bechio on and go a little longer, as Hooper clearly need someone at his side.

Wes for Tettey could have been because of Tetteys head injury, but otherwise I would perhaps expected Wes to start vs Arsenals diminuitive midfield.

Hughton tried for the point, fair enough.[/quote]

No it''s not fair enough because the point is his subs simply made much harder for us to get a point. Throwing on an attacking player for a defensive one in an effort to get a point is too simplistic. The reason we were on top for much of the second half was the midfield dominance of Tettey and Fer. Fer was tiring but Tettey was still doing an excellent job. That substitution was terrible on two levels. It cost us any chance of genuinely going for a point because we lost the midfield platform and it had a big part in us shipping two more goals. Dreadful.

[sgncfc 1,221]

I think it''s a bit harsh to criticise Hughton for failing to respond during the game when Wenger made similar errors. Everything we did was being countered by Flamini and as soon as he went off, we got on top. Wenger did nothing about it, and the second half started the same, with us calling the tune. Their second goal was hugely against the run of play and we were still on top. When we scored, it looked like we would go on to equalise and the only thing which turned it against us was when Wenger made Arteta drop deeper and put Ramsey wide - until then, Ramsey had barely had a kick.

It wouldn''t surprise me if this move by Wenger was actually prompted by us bringing on Redmond. Taking Tettey off for Hoolahan was a massive gamble which completely backfired, and has resulted in the "fabulous Arsenal" headlines, but for much of the game indeed up to the 80th minute, we were very much in it and competing. I sat among the Arsenal fans and the feeling around me was that we were going to nick a draw and that we were not a bad side. Ten minutes later, apparently, they are easily going to be champions and we''re going down.

Arsenal won''t win the title - they don''t have enough quality in their defence and their team ethic is too brittle.

Norwich won''t go down - we are improving and have a lot of quality in midfield and up front which will click in time.

I am slightly concerned about Bassong, who I think has been a bit off his best recently and who lost his position on several occasions yesterday - in fact, Giroud completely dominated him. And I also question our fitness - against both Chelsea and Arsenal, we clearly tired much more than they did and it cost us goals.

But I have complete faith that we are a work in progress; we are getting better and the points will come.

[Bury Yellow 2]

Well Nutty Nigel thinks we are doing fine so I''m happy with that

[starfish 0]

I am largely with sgncfc in terms of the latter stages, except that the first 35 minutes of the game we were so lethargic and lacking in pace it was scary. Bassong is nowhere near last year''s standards, while Hooper had zero influence at any point. So still a work in progress, with tettey fer and Olsen looking real positives.

[a1canary 0]

"sat among the Arsenal fans and the feeling around me was that we were going to nick a draw and that we were not a bad side. Ten minutes later, apparently, they are easily going to be champions and we''re going down."

Indeed - isn''t that just football all over!

I agree with OP and thought when we scored CH should have held off the substitutions. I got the distinct impression that he was conceding this himself in the post match interviews.

Where I don''t agree with OP is suggestion that a manager is not influenced by the messages around him, from all manner of directions. The longer and louder they go on, it''s impossible not to be influenced. You''d be worried if managers were able to completely and totally ignore it because that''d mean the fans have no influence at all. We know that''s not true. There are rare exceptions where a manager earns the right to ignore the fans views but I can actually only think of one, perhaps two.

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

I am in agreement with Jim that the players were at fault for the Chelsea result but no one has been able to clarify whether CH turned down the opportunity to sub Pilks as he was on the far side taking a corner and in doing so send out instructions or, through his captain, get players back.

Incidentally, it appears making Bassong team captain hasn''t worked for team or player so far.

As fans we are entitled to opinions and hindsight but one man makes those decisions, he will make mistakes as everyone does but for me, over time, the pattern is clear.

Joanna, I can''t recall making such a comment against Lambert so would be interested to see evidence, you could be right but I really don''t recall writing or thinking it.

I have said recently the best thing for NCFC is for CH to be successful so we have stability. I expect us to beat Cardiff and for the situation to look better.

We appear to have found our midfield. The wide players are a problem along with hesitation in playing early balls into the box and we are playing much better than our position indicates. But we have also spoiled two recent good performances by shooting ourselves in the foot.

It''s alright for Nigel, he is hedged against all of this by putting money for personal gain against Hughton while backing him on here. But for those who live by their principles it is a far more difficult course of sticking to them.

[PurpleCanary 5,553]

This point could go in any number of threads but...All our six Premier League goals have come in open play. A contrast with the overall percentage for last season.

[the bristol nest 0]

All the tedious talk of ''us'' and the ''majority'' from both sides of the CH debate clouds the point in the original post that the substitution of Tetty for Hoolahan was a gaff. CH said as much.

Arsenal were technically brilliant at times in the game but were allowed free range at the end. It was a decision that worries me in that CH could not see what was surely going to happen next.

Redmond coming on was a good move but I groaned when he took Tetty off.

I enjoyed our occasional dominance and believe that if we can play like that against the lesser teams we will get some good results.

CH will hopefully learn from this.

[kingsway 94]

["i''m spartacus"]very good post, redmond on for either of the wingers fair enough,but  hoolahan on for tetty was like the charge of the light brigade, foolhardy at best negligent at worst ... amongst all the hysteria, pant wetting, and blind optimism this post really does hit the nail on the head if we do survive it will be inspite of hughton    OTBC

 

Hughtons been critiscised for not going for it but when he yesterday fans like you still critiscise!

 

I applauded the Tetty for Hoolahan substitution yesterday cause we had nothing to lose as we already were but in hindsight it made us more open and Arsenal took advantage, but if we''d of done we''d never know!

 

A very fine balancing act and people remember we aren''t playing in the Anglian Combination so a draw yesterday would have been a huge result. The Arsenal of yesterday are a better team than the team they''ve been the previous two seasons!

[HampsteadCanary 0]

This is what I said earlier, Bristol...that the one attacking sub (bringing on a pacy young winger) makes sense, as he''s already created more this season than Snodgrass, and then not taking off the player that allows our creative players a but more license. Wes for Howson would have made more sense if he really wanted to bring Wes on.