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Juggy

Hoping that we lose...

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What sort of position is this? I''ve seen plenty of people say that they hoped we lost today so that Hughton got the sack.
Surely the problem that we have with Hughton is primarily that we simply aren''t winning games or scoring goals?
I''m as pessimistic as most when it comes to getting a result at Stoke at the weekend, but I''m not going to hope that we lose. As far as I''m concerned Hughton needs to go if we keep losing, and he can stay if we start winning (especially if he can show that we win away games).
It would be suicide to sack him if he can show that we have improved over the next few games. The whole point in wanting out is the belief that Hughton has lost the team and get us relegated isn''t it?
So if we go and beat Stoke, and turn out some good performances against Arsenal and Chelsea, and then go and beat Cardiff at home, or similar, the reasons for wanting him to go become largely void don''t they?
I want us to beat Stoke, I want Hughton to save his job at get us winning games and scoring goals. I only want him to sacked if him remaining in employment looks set to see us relegated. 
Surely wishing him failure extends way past wanting to replace an underperforming manager and is well into ''vendetta'' territory? Nobody should want him to fail, believing that he will fail is a completely different thing?
He at least needs the opportunity to show that we can score goals with Hooper in the team, Hughton himself said at the start of the season that Van Wolfswinkel will need time to adjust to this league, he knew that from the beginning, Hooper
We need to give Hughton a fair chance of turning this around, three league games at least, possibly four. 
Just think of the nomarks and wasters that we could be left with, the dole queue is hardly brimming with quality managers and those in employment don''t leave this early in the season.
Give him a little time, even just three or four games, that isn''t too much to ask. 

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Here Hare Here !!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely agree. Really want CH to have some sort of epiphany, and learn fast on the job; he has the rep of being a good coach ...lets see him break his mold and try something other than a variation on a staid 4-4-2.

Would love it, ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!, if it works out for him, because then it works out for us.

And as I''ve said before, love his dignity and the way he comes across.

(Oh, and please sort out any dissent asap too Chris :)

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If this is the catalyst to kick start the season then so be it... I''m not fussed who''s in charge as long as we are doing the job. Abit of the old norwich spirit there... Lets see that on Sunday!

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Good post made back then Juge. That was a point being made by many at the time and if you add the Man City game to that I had forecast that we would get 4/5/6 points from the five games which was laughed at.

 

However just to clarify... "So if we go and beat Stoke, and turn out some good performances against Arsenal and Chelsea, and then go and beat Cardiff at home, or similar, the reasons for wanting him to go become largely void don''t they?" If we now don''t beat Cardiff at home, lets say we draw the game, would that count as similar?

 

 

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I eat humble pie with the OP here because of ''So if we go and beat Stoke, and turn out some good performances against Arsenal and Chelsea, and then go and beat Cardiff at home, or similar, the reasons for wanting him to go become largely void don''t they?''

My feelings too - when seeing this post bumped, without checking the date, was regarding our next game against Cardiff.

You''ve called it how I''ve seen it so far there.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Good post made back then Juge. That was a point being made by many at the time and if you add the Man City game to that I had forecast that we would get 4/5/6 points from the five games which was laughed at.

 

However just to clarify... "So if we go and beat Stoke, and turn out some good performances against Arsenal and Chelsea, and then go and beat Cardiff at home, or similar, the reasons for wanting him to go become largely void don''t they?" If we now don''t beat Cardiff at home, lets say we draw the game, would that count as similar?

[/quote]
Well a win at Cardiff would mean season firmly back on track and everybody can shut up and get back to supporting the team in my book. 
A draw and a good performance would make it four good performances in a row, but perhaps the jury is still out, and then we then have to have the "how much time" argument - with people like you or me then turning a very keen eye back towards the fixture list to decide how much time we would want to give him/them and others coming on here to spout their anti-Hughton crap. 
I think if we lose that game, then that would be enough to make the more reasonable of us start to worry again - I was very worried after Villa, but I think emotions are always going to run high after a defeat to Lambert. It is the closest thing that we have now to a rivalry, like losing at home to Ipswich.
For me personally if we are in the relegation zone after Palace on 30th November then that''s the time to seriously consider moving him on. I can say that because I don''t believe that we will be, and we may even have a League Cup shock in the process if Moyes is too concerned about the league position and plays the kids. 

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More good points Juge. However the past 3 games have me concerned that some fans want Hughton gone more than they want to enjoy the season. Nobody expected more than 3 points from the last 3 games and very few expected as many as 3. But rather than this buying him time it''s just been another nail in his coffin because "you don''t get points for just playing well against Chelsea and Arsenal."

 

We are competing well against the best teams in the country and are one game, an exciting cup tie at Old Trafford, away from the quarter finals of the league cup for the second successive season. I am totally at a loss to why where we are indicates we need such an urgent change.

 

 

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Our next five league games:
Cardiff (h)
Man City (a)
West Ham (h)
Newcastle (a)Palace (h)
Ideally we need 7 points out of that lot, if we get that we won''t be in the bottom three. I think that''s a realistic objective, that''s two home wins and then a draw at either the other home game or Newcastle away (I''m writing Man City off). 
If we play the way we have been then wouldn''t surprise me if we bettered 7 points, but I don''t want to go overboard and expect three home wins. If I had to choose two home wins out of three then I''d choose Cardiff and Palace.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

More good points Juge. However the past 3 games have me concerned that some fans want Hughton gone more than they want to enjoy the season. Nobody expected more than 3 points from the last 3 games and very few expected as many as 3. But rather than this buying him time it''s just been another nail in his coffin because "you don''t get points for just playing well against Chelsea and Arsenal."

We are competing well against the best teams in the country and are one game, an exciting cup tie at Old Trafford, away from the quarter finals of the league cup for the second successive season. I am totally at a loss to why where we are indicates we need such an urgent change.

[/quote]
Immediate aftermath of the Villa defeat aside, where emotions were running very high due to the Lambert factor, I don''t know if the strong anti-Hughton sentiments are as representative of the typical Norwich season ticket holder as it seems on here. I would hope not anyway, but must remember that a high proportion of the people on this forum will be listen on Radio Norfolk ("haven''t seen the game Neil but Tettey was rubbish", etc) and then watch Match of the Day, only go when you can get a ticket for a tenner on a Tuesday night cup game types. I don''t know how many Norwich fans actually want Hughton sacked at this stage. 
I can remember not long after joining doing a "Do you want Holt to leave poll?" (before he left, when people had suspicions that he was off). It was a straw poll, yes or no, but it turned out to be less than 10% saying "yes". But if you''d have read the threads on the topic you would have had the impression that it was more like 50/50 - it turns out that they were the ''vocal minority'', they made the most noise but didn''t accurately reflect any sort of general consensus. In fact I think a similar strawpoll after the Villa game ran the "Should Hughton Be Sacked" poll, where the ''Yes'' vote was more than 10% but still a firm minority. I assume that after recent performances that minority would be even smaller.
I''m just glad that we have a CEO with a brain, because a popularist individual might have responded to the pressure that the vocal minority tried to put him under on twitter. I''m never going to be in the "Hughton even if we get relegated" camp, but I believe he will keep his job and lead us to a mid-table finish again, and at the end of the season I will then respect whatever McNally''s decision is with regards to whether he has met expectations and whether he will be trusted with our Sky millions again. That is the sensible time to change the manager, if deemed necessary, unless relegation looks a real threat (and it is far too early to ascertain whether that threat is real, I don''t think it is, not if we keep playing like this).
I will try not to be too reactionary if we lose/draw to Cardiff, I''m looking at the next five league games really - I want two home wins out of the next three home games, and it would relieve a lot of pressure if the first can come at the weekend.
Gosh look at the time, sleep time. 

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Hughton has gone past the point of no return for me. I have no confidence in his ability to

A) keep us up

B) play attractive football

C) progress the club

D) purchase players wisely with the limited funds we have. Of his summer buys only Fer In my opinion has been consistently good.

Hughton out

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[quote user="Local canary"]Hughton has gone past the point of no return for me. I have no confidence in his ability to

A) keep us up

B) play attractive football

C) progress the club

D) purchase players wisely with the limited funds we have. Of his summer buys only Fer In my opinion has been consistently good.

Hughton out[/quote]

You Waveny Canary and I claim my £5.

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Nutty and Juge sum it up nicely for me. I am convinced that the anti CH gang are a very small minority, and am also convinced that it is the wrong time for the club to be considering change. All games in this league are tough, including Cardiff City, as they too are off the back of a big defeat but also have shown they are capable at this level. I still believe we will have enough to beat them from what I have seen so far this season...... but you just know that regardless of what happens for the rest of this season, even if mostly positive this nasty minority will still have it in for Hughton!  That said, then if we do become one of the sides that are struggling for several weeks in the bottom three as we enter the new year, then of course things could change, but cant see that happening.

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[quote user="The New Boy Le Juge"]
I can remember not long after joining doing a "Do you want Holt to leave poll?" (before he left, when people had suspicions that he was off). It was a straw poll, yes or no, but it turned out to be less than 10% saying "yes". But if you''d have read the threads on the topic you would have had the impression that it was more like 50/50 - it turns out that they were the ''vocal minority'', they made the most noise but didn''t accurately reflect any sort of general consensus. In fact I think a similar strawpoll after the Villa game ran the "Should Hughton Be Sacked" poll, where the ''Yes'' vote was more than 10% but still a firm minority. I assume that after recent performances that minority would be even smaller.
 

[/quote]

 

I don''t follow this argument. If it was only a minority thinking Holt should be let go in the summer then the minority was proved right. We could have held on to Holt - he wasn''t out of contract - but didn''t. McNally, if we are going to attribute every decision to him alone, went along with what you say was the view of a small but noisy group and against the consensus.

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As a NORWICH fan, I always hope norwich win. Not for the manager, or the players or even the fans, but for the club.

I want the club to succeed and managers come and go, but I would never wish for norwich to lose a game of football, no matter what the situation

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I''d largely agree with this post Juge, which is rather more measured than your one 13 minutes earlier ! I''m afraid that merely beating Cardiff (by whatever margin and in whatever style) will not "get the season back on track so we can all shut up" . One swallow does not make a summer. But, if results have consistently improved by Nov 30th,( 7 or 8 more points, minimum) then you will have a point, and this is what I''ve certainly said for a while now.

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As much as I want the fool gone, I couldn''t wish City to lose to achieve it.

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But this is the quandary isn''t it Wiz?

 

You want the "fool" gone but you don''t want us to lose. If we keep winning games, the "fool" won''t get sacked. So do you REALLY want him gone or not?

 

The other ponderable is after how many wins does the "fool" cease being just that?

 

A perfect example of why "fans" get labelled as fickle.

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I also want the ''fool'' gone but you still keep turning up with ridiculous posts Wiz.

Anyone who has watched the performances and the obvious improvement in the last three games should be ashamed to want the manager out at the moment.

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I can''t help feel that Wiz is doing what Wiz does best....ie being deliberately provocative for effect. CH is clearly not a "fool". As applies to many others, I''m yet to be convinced that he has the tactical ability to be a Prem manager, but that does not make him foolish.

I''d never wish a City defeat, but there''s no doubt in my mind thad Hughton is drinking in the last chance saloon now . The patience of a large proportion of fans has worn VERY thin, and one can only assume that the same applies (more pertinently) to the people who hire and fire at Carrow Rd.

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[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]I agree it''s a daft position, but in hindsight, aren''t you glad we lost 7-1 to Colchester that time?[/quote]

 

Yes.....................[:$]

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[quote user="Warren Hill"]

But this is the quandary isn''t it Wiz?

 

You want the "fool" gone but you don''t want us to lose. If we keep winning games, the "fool" won''t get sacked. So do you REALLY want him gone or not?

 

The other ponderable is after how many wins does the "fool" cease being just that?

 

A perfect example of why "fans" get labelled as fickle.

[/quote]

 

Good points Warren, but yes, I still want him gone, the style of football under him is not Norwich, its a tedious bore, and it will be again next season, regardless of what league we''re in.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

I don''t follow this argument. If it was only a minority thinking Holt should be let go in the summer then the minority was proved right. We could have held on to Holt - he wasn''t out of contract - but didn''t. McNally, if we are going to attribute every decision to him alone, went along with what you say was the view of a small but noisy group and against the consensus.

[/quote]Don''t really see where you are coming from there really Purple because the straw poll was something along the lines of "Do you want Holt to leave?", not "Should we sell Holt if it is true that he wants to leave and Hughton is given money to sign some quality new strikers". McNally himself may have "not wanted Holt to leave", Hughton may not have "wanted Holt to leave", but decided that they "should let Holt go in the summer" as a result of his unhappiness. We won''t know either way, but for all we know there may have been an effort from Hughton to persuade Holt to remain - we did go and sign Elmander, hardly a Holt upgrade.But even if it was a little more black and white I don''t really see how anybody could be proved ''right'' or proved ''wrong'' with Holt, if it was to be a decision based on ability. So far our three new strikers have 1 league goal between them - they have a collectively much worse goalscoring rate together than Holt''s 1 in 4 last season. Our four strikers have 1 in 8 between them. So nobody has been proved right just yet? Then there is the leadership thing, we wouldn''t have seen Snodgrass take the ball from Holt - he''d have ripped his head off. As for "attributing every decison to McNally", well I don''t really see where you are coming from there either, because although you would be quite correct that a major issue like dismissal of a manager would be a decision made collectively by the board - the decision to sell Holt wouldn''t be one that I would attribute to the board, but mostly to Hughton. One would certainly hope that Hughton has control over playing staff, yet Hughton certainly has no say in whether he remains in his job. I''ve never implied that McNally has made any decision about Holt, and I''d be concerned if he had - I''d have thought that move resulted from discussions between Holt and Hughton. So it is you attributing the Holt sale to McNally not me, I''d have thought that other than ticking a box or signing a form it would have had very little to do with McNally (past telling Hughton how much he had to spend on the squad).I bet nobody on here knew that Grant Holt had the Leeds badge on his shinpads everytime he pulled on a Norwich shirt though, maybe that would have skewed the vote: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2466369/Its-secret-Wigan-striker-Grant-Holt-dinner-Margaret-Thatcher-special-shin-pad-cheesy-mash.htmlAmazing what you learn, no surprise that he didn''t reveal that one on twitter.

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[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]I agree it''s a daft position, but in hindsight, aren''t you glad we lost 7-1 to Colchester that time?[/quote]Hoping that we lose a game in advance of it happening, and realising that a defeat was beneficial in hindsight, are two completely different things. There is also a world of difference between Bryan Gunn and Chris Hughton.If you think about it, all those "I miss Lambert types" should perhaps consider the fact that even if Lambert is the superior manager.... Hughton still looks like Jose Mourinho compared with Gunn, Roeder, Duffy, Grant, Hunter, Worthington''s last two seasons, Hamilton, Rioch, Walker''s second spell, Megson, and Deehan. People should be careful what they wish for. McNally may be more clued up than the likes of Doncaster, but he is still capable of getting things very wrong - I think the Lawrie Sanchez appointment at Fulham coincided with his departure from that club.

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