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grefstad

Gary Hooper - invisible

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No complaints about losing to Arsenal, we tried in the second half, but once again losing goals to counter attacks, as against Chelsea.

Bit this thread is about Hooper´s performance.

To be honest, lacklustre is not the best word. Totally awaful perhaps a better word.

He was, at best, totally invisible for the entire match.

And yes, I saw the entire match.

Pilkington should perhaps have been taken off earlier. Looked off pace all night.

First goal was FIFA14 stuff. Probably teamgoal of the season. And typicallly we are on the receiving end of such wonder goals. you never see Chelsea at the receiving end of such stuff.

2-0 also a great goal, on the counter. How annoying to lose a goal on the counter away at Arsenal.

2-1 was a great low shot from just inside the area, Howson.

It was game on at that time, and we huffed and puffed, but really never looked like scoring another. Hooper was, as I said, invisible.

Amazed that Becchio did not get a chance at 2-1 down and us chasing goals with Hooper ineffective.

3-1 and 4-1 was Arsenal taking the mickey.

Harsh on us, but we always look capable of losing goals, but sadly don''t look much like scoring.

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As is RVW and as was Holt last season and as will be every striker that plays under Hughton in his system.

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I agree and I watched the whole match, although we did play some good football we were simply outclassed. Lets see if we can now start picking up points in our next game?????????

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Strikers need sevice , Citys srikers have had none ever since Hughton arrived , whatever striker we play always looks completely lost .

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Never got a pass or a decent cross all afternoon. How do you expect a centre forward to score goals when he''s bye passed by the system just like Holt & RVW before him. There can be no other reason why three prolific goalscorers suddenly become "invisible" when they play in a Hughton team.

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[quote user="JF"]As is RVW and as was Holt last season and as will be every striker that plays under Hughton in his system.[/quote]
^ THIS. 
If you are a talented striker the worst thing that you can do for your career is move to Norwich City. 
I don''t know if it is Hughton, or the midfielders seeking personal glory. 
Snodgrass, Pilkington, Redmond have all at various times this season gone for a shot when a cross or pass may have been the better option, and I don''t know what we do about that.
Pilkington''s ''cross shot'' today being the perfect example. It makes me wonder whether we really do need an attacking coach, Darren Huckerby seemed to know when to shoot and when to cross and he is at the club - perhaps there is something that he could teach our creative players. 

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[quote user="CanaryOne"]Strikers need sevice , Citys srikers have had none ever since Hughton arrived , whatever striker we play always looks completely lost .[/quote]^^thisits easy for other teams to crowd out a one man strike force because the midfield always sit so deep, its all good and well people talking about how no one plays 2 up front anymore, the difference is we dont have a frank lampard, ramires, hazard, mata and oscar to play in midfieldneed to go back to basics

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[quote user="iron_stan"][quote user="CanaryOne"]Strikers need sevice , Citys srikers have had none ever since Hughton arrived , whatever striker we play always looks completely lost .[/quote]^^thisits easy for other teams to crowd out a one man strike force because the midfield always sit so deep, its all good and well people talking about how no one plays 2 up front anymore, the difference is we dont have a frank lampard, ramires, hazard, mata and oscar to play in midfieldneed to go back to basics [/quote]
It''s not just us sitting deep, we get forward in numbers enough (or have recently at least) - am I the only person who has noticed that the only player willing to whip in an early cross is Olsson? 
Quick early crosses cause headaches for goalkeepers and defenders, and talented poachers seize on mistakes or capitalise on being a second quicker. Van Wolfswinkel and Hooper will score goals if we start whipping the ball into the box - that''s what they are good at. 
The accidental Whittaker cross and the Van Wolfswinkel goal one example, the Olsson cross to Van Wolsfwinkel headed down to Pilkington another. We always seem to be waiting for that "perfect cross". It''s BS..... just whip the bloody ball in, the striker''s job is to be in the right place at the right time and if we do it enough then sometimes they will be. 
It may be primative, but Lambert used to play that way - and we don''t have people like Ramsay and Ozil, so that''s how we score goals. People like Szczesny today would hate to have to deal with balls into the box every week. We see goalkeepers spill or miss balls every week - we don''t test the keeper or centre backs enough. I think we give them too much respect. 

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Agree Hooper only had a few touches, but not sure what more he could have done with the way the match went. Disagree on Pilkington, he worked hard and certainly did enough to warrant his place in the team, as did the rest of the team, against what I consider to be the team who will win the league comfortably.  Despite the scoreline a reasonable performance and no disgrace against such an impressive outfit, a club who loan their players to Juventus and who''s bench would all get into the majority of the other Premier League sides...its a huge gap, huge.  

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[quote user="Dubai Mark"]Agree Hooper only had a few touches, but not sure what more he could have done with the way the match went. Disagree on Pilkington, he worked hard and certainly did enough to warrant his place in the team, as did the rest of the team, against what I consider to be the team who will win the league comfortably.  Despite the scoreline a reasonable performance and no disgrace against such an impressive outfit, a club who loan their players to Juventus and who''s bench would all get into the majority of the other Premier League sides...its a huge gap, huge.  [/quote]
I also think that we just lost to this seasons champions. Unless they get an injury crisis or Ozil breaks his leg next week, I think they will walk this league - and people will start calling Wenger a genius again. 

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"as is RVW and as was Holt last season and as will be every striker that plays under Hughton in his system.

^ THIS. 
If you are a talented striker the worst thing that you can do for your career is move to Norwich City. 
I don''t know if it is Hughton, or the midfielders seeking personal glory. 
Snodgrass, Pilkington, Redmond have all at various times this season gone for a shot when a cross or pass may have been the better option, and I don''t know what we do about that.
Pilkington''s ''cross shot'' today being the perfect example. It makes me wonder whether we really do need an attacking coach, Darren Huckerby seemed to know when to shoot and when to cross and he is at the club - perhaps there is something that he could teach our creative players. 

Good point.

We just never seem to play short passes, invite the lone striker on short linkups, flicks, etc as Arsenal and others do. It i a combined problem, partly because we dont have mobile enough midfielders with good enough technical and tactical ability, partly because our strikes dont have enough "flesh" on their bodies to hold off defenders, and partly because Hughton uses his midfielders more to protect a fragile defence than to support his forward(s).

The better teams trust their defenders to do their parts in the one-on-ones. We, or Hughton, clearly dont, and therefor our goalscoring problems come from the back ( we dont dare to attack with force in fear of being caught out)

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[quote user="JF"]As is RVW and as was Holt last season and as will be every striker that plays under Hughton in his system.[/quote]

 Nail on the head, hardly Hooper''s fault if that''s how he has been told to play.

The tactics and system are to blame.

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@The New Boy (Le Juge)the problem with what youre saying is that we have a left footed winger playing on the right, and a right footed winger playing on the left, said it before, they ALWAYS cut inside and head at the centre backs, we never see them go past their man on the outside and cross because they are played out of position, occasionally the full backs can get up and support but its rare because its a risk at this levelwe need to drop snodgrass, square pegs round holes. redmond on the right pilks on the left (or maybe even a murphy). hoof it up the wings, beat the full backs on the outside and stick it in the 6 yard box for wolf and hooper to fight for.balls to what tactics the billionaires are playing, we dont have those players

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As has been previously highlighted, strikers need service. I agree with the point mentioned earlier in this thread about Olsson being the only one who seems to look to whip in an early ball and when you play a lone striker (like we do) especially against a side like Arsenal the job of the wingers should be to pepper the box with crosses, not to wait for that one ''perfect'' opportunity...

If we''re going to play the crossing game we need to play wingers on the same wing as their strong foot. This would mean they wouldn''t have to cut in/back to get a cross in and would allow for the RB/LB''s to be more defensive because they wouldn''t have to constantly support on the wings. In doing this, the defense would be more solid, we could deliver more crosses which provide more service to the strikers and the midfield could afford to press higher as the defense would be stronger. Simple really. :)

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[quote user="Wazzy van Donkeydangler"]

[quote user="JF"]As is RVW and as was Holt last season and as will be every striker that plays under Hughton in his system.[/quote]

 Nail on the head, hardly Hooper''s fault if that''s how he has been told to play.

The tactics and system are to blame.

[/quote]

 

Exactly.[Y]

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Actually, a 4-2-3-1 system is rarely about the lone striker scoring much.

Look at Chelsea and Man C.

Its the "second wave" , the midfielders, who often end up scoring in a system like that, roaming around, linking up with the striker, getting on the end of cut-backed crosses, etc.

Sadly we dont have midfielders licenced to roam forward, and therefore the system becomes ineffective.

Intead, Hughton uses the system to protect our defenders more than the midfield is used for attacks.

All this because our defenders are not good enough, or got no pace, to cope with one-on-ones.

As such, the lone striker will often look isolated and will see little of tbe ball.

We saw this with Holt, RvW and now Hooper.

Unless we see more mobile midfielders and better pace on the wings, this 4-2-3-1 will never give us goals.

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We''re actually trying to play it through the middle a bit more rather than crossing all the time like we did in the Championship and the first couple of seasons back in the Prem. We''re still in a transition from being ultra-defensive to playing a more open and pressing game. I think with a single striker we need to be more fluid and deadly on the counter (a la Chelsea and Arsenal) and get more shots on target from outside the box, but even these areas show signs of improvement.If anything, it''s a bit of an irony that we need to keep the back door locked a bit better when we lose the ball high up. The midfielders and defenders who are further forward need to be much more urgent when we lose the ball in these situations, not stand there waiting for it to come back. Our full backs have been good attack-wise but maybe need to be a bit more cautious at times.To sum up, I don''t think we need radical changes to our system, tactics or personel. Many things like our passing have been excellent, but we need to keep working on our weaknesses and we should start scoring more and conceding less.

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[quote user="grefstad"]Actually, a 4-2-3-1 system is rarely about the lone striker scoring much.

Look at Chelsea and Man C. [/quote]
I disagree with this, there are plenty of examples of a lone striker scoring a hatful of goals. Van Persie played alone up front with Rooney or another other playing deep, the system at Liverpool when Fernando Torres was there was completely built around feeding Torres with three attacking midfielders and two defensive midfielders. Easier when you have a Steven Gerrard of course, but Suarez was also a lone striker last season.
Pretty sure that Michu and Berbatov were lone strikers too, they all scored a hatful. Chelsea can get away with their strikers not scoring because their midfielders are prolific (last season at least) but if we want to make 1 up front work then we need to try and set up like Liverpool did with Torres, because that sure worked.

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Why don''t we do a Spain and play with no strikers and have a midfielder up front? Howson for lone striker? I am taking the mick! But all the stick people gave RVW was hooper really that much better? Did he chase as much as RVW or make them runs in behind? And why do we keep giving snodgrass a chance and leaving redmond out? Snodgrass will be tired after new child....

Ill let you decide

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[quote user="can u sit down please"]Re 4231 I don''t think we have the pace from the midfield to support a line forward.

No penetration going beyond the forwards at all.[/quote]Spot on.It''s easy to defend against one up top unless you have either (or preferably both) creative players who can play in between the lines or pacy midfielders who can break and go past the lone striker. As a centre half you only really have to worry about tracking the lone striker. When we get people up and around the lone striker (the goal against Chelsea was a good example) it''s not so bad but that didn''t happen much today.

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The past couple of games our central midfield has improved vastly. Some of the balls going into the strikers areas be it from the wings or down the middle haven''t been great/consistent. Get this area sorted and I''m sure they''ll start earning their keep.

Is clear Hooper has to be fed whereas RvW makes space/has pace. Two different strikers. Maybe against Cardiff it could be playing Hooper further up with RvW behind in an old Holt/Wes role?

Why was Hooper invisible? Maybe down to a pretty decent Arsenal back line containing our boys.

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[quote user="Thorny"]

Is clear Hooper has to be fed whereas RvW makes space/has pace. Two different strikers. Maybe against Cardiff it could be playing Hooper further up with RvW behind in an old Holt/Wes role.[/quote]

Ive been advocating this since Hooper was bought. RvW could well play behind Hooper in a 4-4-1-1 or even 4-2-3-1 with Rvw as advanced mid.

Also, if we are going to play 4-2-3-1 in weeks to come, we need more creativity.

Surely Wes must be worth a game vs Cardiff?

Sadly we lack personell to play a proper 4-2-3-1.

No pace on the wings, little creativity, and no penetrting deep runs (not seen Fer make many runs into the box).

This is probably due to tactical reasons, but surely Fer and Howson can make probing runs while Tettey holds back?

It is just too defensive for me still.

Our forwards will struggle to get 5 goals during the season with this system.

Instead of copying other teams tactical setup (which clearly does not suit our player material), we should set out playing a style suited to our players. Hughton does not fancy this, however

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RVW as an advanced mid is a terrible idea he just doesn''t have the skill set required. The midfield trio we put out today is our best selection. Hooper was fine he had a very tough game against the excellent Koscielny. His performance today is indicative of nothing and people really shouldn''t care.

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If RvW does not have the skillset, then he is not suited to be the lone striker either, in act not suited to anything. Is this what you are saying?

When Ars can play øzil, Cazorla and Wilshere in the 4-2-3-1, none of them with a big frame, none of them tacklers by profession, we should be able to play Howson and Wes in the same team, based on he thought you need creative ad roaming players in those positions.

Our problem though, is playing a fecking system not suited to the players we have got.

Therefore, Hughton out

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