Are you embarrassed by our current league position?

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="City 2nd"]Rock The Boat wrote the following post at 2013-10-11 9:46 PM: We are much better than our present position indicates. We are improving by the match as a unit, and if we maintain the current progress we''ll soon be occupying a mid-table position But we are not - our results determine our position, or haven''t you noticed that! We are not improving if we are not winning! Look at the managers stats and you will see it confirmed, we are not improving and not progressing. Fact![/quote]

 

And the fact that N comes after F.

But you are right, results do determine our position, so please explain why so many people are on the managers case after our successful season last year?

 

[Row D Seat 7 0]

In answer to the OP''s question -

Not at the moment. I''m surprised McNally said that because it alters from what he said at the fans forum last week where he said he thought we''d just been "unlucky" - which annoyed me. I''m not embarrassed by the league position yet, but to say we''d JUST been unlucky was in itself, embarrassing. Obviously he didn''t watch us at Hull and Tottenham and at home to Villa.

I would be embarrassed if we are in 18th on Boxing Day. I think if we are, CH won''t be here much longer, but I think it''s a bit early for embarrassment. We have some tough games coming up. A win at home to Cardiff is a must. Lose that and losing to Arsenal and Man City either side of that fixture could see us lower than 18th.

My attitude is - let''s just wait and see. Give it time. Not embarrassed at the moment.

[City 2nd 191]

ellis206 wrote the following post at 2013-10-14 5:16 PM:

And the fact that N comes after F.

But you are right, results do determine our position, so please explain why so many people are on the managers case after our successful season last year?

Oh, I see, struggling with relegation until the last TWO games of the season was SUCCESS!

Funny I thought winning matches, challenging for honours and winning cups was success. How silly of me!

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="City 2nd"]  Oh, I see, struggling with relegation until the last TWO games of the season was SUCCESS! [/quote]

Can you please explain how we were "struggling" with relegation? 

If we''d have lost those two final games, instead of winning them, we would still have finished 17th.

We finished 8 points above the team in 18th, 9 points even if you take into consideration Wigan''s terrible goal difference.

We finished above 9 Premier League teams, in 11th place, 5 places above Paul Lambert''s claret army.

We recorded our best Premier League finish for almost two decades. We beat Man Utd, Arsenal and Man City. 

We were 2 points away from a top half finish, 2 points behind the FA Cup winners Swanselona, 1 place above Paul Lambert''s finish the year before.

If it weren''t for Lionel Messi we would have been the top tier team with the longest unbeaten run in Europe, a continent with over 40 league systems. 

We had a collective one week panic after the Villa game, where we realised that relegation remained a mathematical possibility, and we only panicked because it was Wigan in 18th - we wouldn''t have panicked if it were any other team.

If you wish to remember the entire 40 week season as a relegation battle then so be it, but most of us remember it as a mediocre/average mid-table season with a week or two of unnecessary panic which were followed with two excellent wins.

Goodness knows what you would be like if we actually got into a relegation battle, 2004/05 was a relegation battle. 

[City 2nd 191]

Oh, I see, struggling with relegation until the last TWO games of the season was SUCCESS!

Can you please explain how we were "struggling" with relegation?

If we''d have lost those two final games, instead of winning them, we would still have finished 17th.

We finished 8 points above the team in 18th, 9 points even if you take into consideration Wigan''s terrible goal difference.

We finished above 9 Premier League teams, in 11th place, 5 places above Paul Lambert''s claret army.

We recorded our best Premier League finish for almost two decades. We beat Man Utd, Arsenal and Man City.

We were 2 points away from a top half finish, 2 points behind the FA Cup winners Swanselona, 1 place above Paul Lambert''s finish the year before.

If it weren''t for Lionel Messi we would have been the top tier team with the longest unbeaten run in Europe, a continent with over 40 league systems.

We had a collective one week panic after the Villa game, where we realised that relegation remained a mathematical possibility, and we only panicked because it was Wigan in 18th - we wouldn''t have panicked if it were any other team.

If you wish to remember the entire 40 week season as a relegation battle then so be it, but most of us remember it as a mediocre/average mid-table season with a week or two of unnecessary panic which were followed with two excellent wins.

Goodness knows what you would be like if we actually got into a relegation battle, 2004/05 was a relegation battle.

Another one who has absolutely NO IDEA regarding what is success through those yellow and green spectacles. Success is winning - how many games did CH oversee last season, and how many so far this season? If you cannot see that we are in a relegation battle already, come back to me after this weekend!

[SeattleCanary 0]

It''s true. We aren''t a top 6 team, theefore amongst the other 14 teams its never decided who shall finish where. It''s always going to be about staying up for us, we aren''t a top 10 team yet like something so it''s always a battle.

Last season it was very probable at one point based on our form and Wigans, and the fixtures that we would go down. We didn''t and I''m glad, but it wasn''t plain sailing. 11th was about as convincing as Chelsea''s 3-1 over us at the weekend, not a true reflection of a consistent performing team.

We sprinted the last 10 feet over the line.

[SeattleCanary 0]

[quote user="SeattleCanary"]It''s true. We aren''t a top 6 team, theefore amongst the other 14 teams its never decided who shall finish where. It''s always going to be about staying up for us, we aren''t a top 10 team yet like something so it''s always a battle.

Last season it was very probable at one point based on our form and Wigans, and the fixtures that we would go down. We didn''t and I''m glad, but it wasn''t plain sailing. 11th was about as convincing as Chelsea''s 3-1 over us at the weekend, not a true reflection of a consistent performing team.

We sprinted the last 10 feet over the line.[/quote]

*Some think*

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="City 2nd"]  Another one who has absolutely NO IDEA regarding what is success through those yellow and green spectacles. Success is winning - how many games did CH oversee last season, and how many so far this season? If you cannot see that we are in a relegation battle already, come back to me after this weekend![/quote]

Point 1: "success is winning" - No it isn''t, success in the league is obtaining enough points to achieve your objective, which if you are Arsenal is Champions League qualification and if you are Norwich is attempting to progress in possibly the toughest league in the world. Objective achieved. Points can be obtained by winning games, or by drawing games, and last season we lost less games under Hughton than we did Lambert. Last season we won the same number of games as Aston Villa and yet finished 5 places above them (don''t let the facts get in the way of your argument though).

Point 2: "yellow and green spectacles" - I do not own a pair of yellow and green spectacles. 

Point 3: "how many games did CH oversee last season" - Chris Hughton oversaw 38 Premier League games last season, the same number as he will oversee this season.

Point 4: "we are in a relegation battle already" - Approximately 15 of the teams in this league will be in a ''relegation battle'' this season for the majority of the season, and will be until they reach somewhere around 37 to 40 points. The gap between 9th in the table and 18th in the table is 3 points. The gap between 18th in the table and Norwich City when you claimed we were in a relegation battle was 8 points. So if we use a range of 8 points, then Chelsea in 3rd are also in a relegation battle (your math not mine).

Point 5(a): "come back to me after this weekend!" - No. 

Point 5(b): "come back to me after this weekend!" - If you believe in the strength of your convictions then the best person to see is a bookmaker, you can still get 3/1 on us getting relegated despite us being 18th. That should sound like an easy way to turn £100 into £400 to you, and an easy way to turn £100 into £0 to me? So we can be expecting your betting slip scanned and linked within the next day or so can we?

[City 2nd 191]

The New Boy (Le Juge) wrote the following post at 2013-10-15 1:34 AM:

City 2nd wrote:

Another one who has absolutely NO IDEA regarding what is success through those yellow and green spectacles. Success is winning - how many games did CH oversee last season, and how many so far this season? If you cannot see that we are in a relegation battle already, come back to me after this weekend!

Point 1: "success is winning" - No it isn''t, success in the league is obtaining enough points to achieve your objective, which if you are Arsenal is Champions League qualification and if you are Norwich is attempting to progress in possibly the toughest league in the world. Objective achieved. Points can be obtained by winning games, or by drawing games, and last season we lost less games under Hughton than we did Lambert. Last season we won the same number of games as Aston Villa and yet finished 5 places above them (don''t let the facts get in the way of your argument though).

Point 2: "yellow and green spectacles" - I do not own a pair of yellow and green spectacles.

Point 3: "how many games did CH oversee last season" - Chris Hughton oversaw 38 Premier League games last season, the same number as he will oversee this season.

Point 4: "we are in a relegation battle already" - Approximately 15 of the teams in this league will be in a ''relegation battle'' this season for the majority of the season, and will be until they reach somewhere around 37 to 40 points. The gap between 9th in the table and 18th in the table is 3 points. The gap between 18th in the table and Norwich City when you claimed we were in a relegation battle was 8 points. So if we use a range of 8 points, then Chelsea in 3rd are also in a relegation battle (your math not mine).

Point 5(a): "come back to me after this weekend!" - No.

Point 5(b): "come back to me after this weekend!" - If you believe in the strength of your convictions then the best person to see is a bookmaker, you can still get 3/1 on us getting relegated despite us being 18th. That should sound like an easy way to turn £100 into £400 to you, and an easy way to turn £100 into £0 to me? So we can be expecting your betting slip scanned and linked within the next day or so can we?

Yaaaaawwwwwwwnnnnnnnn! How sad you are! As I said, take off the green and yellow glasses and take a real dose of reality. We are bottom 3 on results achieved this season, and that alone, just as we were in relegation trouble on results achieved last season until the players took it upon themselves to do something about it! FACT, not pessimistic fiction that you appear to believe.

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="City 2nd"] We are bottom 3 on results achieved this season [/quote]

Until everybody has played everybody once we have no idea whether we are in ''relegation form'' or not, but we have not lost a game to anybody who currently sits in the bottom half of the table #fact.  

[quote] just as we were in relegation trouble on results achieved last season  [/quote]

We were never in relegation trouble last season, even after that Villa defeat. 

 

[quote] until the players took it upon themselves to do something about it! FACT [/quote]

Oh that old the players rebelling against Hughton thing again. Only it isn''t a "FACT" is it? It is completely made up in the mind of morons like yourself. Would you be able to so confidently exclaim "FACT" if a letter from a solicitor landed on your door asking to retract or back up your opinion? There is more chance of the moon being made of cheese than you having good reason to believe that the players rebelled against Hughton to beat West Brom and Man City. I suppose that Becchio substituted himself onto the pitch before that beautiful little lay off to Howson didn''t he?

[Thorny 0]

Rather be in that position now than at the end of the season.

We will creep out and upwards but won''t start until after this weekend.

[Houston Canary 0]

We were in a relegation battle until we were safe which wasn''t until games on Week 37 ended.

Wigan didn''t have their late season rally. But we were all wondering about it.

It''s disingenuous to suggest we weren''t in a battle and base it solely on the outcome.

[City 2nd 191]

The New Boy (Le Juge) wrote the following post at 2013-10-15 3:.02am

We were never in relegation trouble last season, even after that Villa defeat

Would you be able to so confidently exclaim "FACT" if a letter from a solicitor landed on your door asking to retract or back up your opinion?

1) What are you doing up so late - does mummy know!

2) Take of the yellow and green glasses sonny, we were in a relegation battle last season, and will be this!

3) You wish to send me a solicitors letter because I have an opinion?! You have little idea regarding Law, but you are not far off slander.

Extricate your head from your backside and you may see clearly, now do one!

[ROBFLECK 132]

yes

[nutty nigel 7,510]

[quote user="Houston Canary"]We were in a relegation battle until we were safe which wasn''t until games on Week 37 ended.

Wigan didn''t have their late season rally. But we were all wondering about it.

It''s disingenuous to suggest we weren''t in a battle and base it solely on the outcome.[/quote]

 

Yes we were all worrying about it Houston. And by all I mean half the division. That''s the problem I have with this. We weren''t safe until the 37th game but neither were Sunderland, Aston Villa, Newcastle, Southampton, Fulham or Stoke. So in order to be safe after 36 games we would have had to have been in the top 10. It''s that context which you and others ignore when making the point. It was not just between us and Wigan.

 

 

 

 

[City 2nd 191]

nutty nigel wrote the following post at 2013-10-15 2:56 PM:

Houston Canary wrote:

Yes we were all worrying about it Houston. And by all I mean half the division. That''s the problem I have with this. We weren''t safe until the 37th game but neither were Sunderland, Aston Villa, Newcastle, Southampton, Fulham or Stoke. So in order to be safe after 36 games we would have had to have been in the top 10. It''s that context which you and others ignore when making the point. It was not just between us and Wigan.

Agree with you totally NN, but it was our later league form that was poor too, not just our position, a lot of the villas, Newcastle, Fulham and stokes were picking up points and wins which we were not - until WBA - we looked the more likely to go down prior to that. Unfortunately it looks like our form is going to be very similar this season, the odd win and draw here and there, but do you see another ten game run this season like we had last and which contributed massively to our survival? We were devoid of goals last season, and it doesn''t look any better this - yet! With Arsenal and Man city in the next three we could seriously be cut adrift at the bottom and that is not good and I am as seriously worried for this season.

[nutty nigel 7,510]

We were in no worse position than many others City 2nd. Including Fulham who''s later league form was worse than ours. You can''t keep isolating certain games to make a point. You surely have to concede that if we were in a relegation fight then so were half the league. Trying to paint a picture of us and Wigan in a straight fight has nothing of substance to back it up. 

 

Now I suspect you are a total WUM which shows disrespect to anyone who uses this board. If not you''d take the challenge that was offered when I played your "guess how many points game" before the Stoke game. That''s still live BTW. Would you like to revisit your guess or are you hoping for a points deduction? The new Rays Funds thread will be up tomorrow evening.

 

 

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="City 2nd"]The New Boy (Le Juge) wrote the following post at 2013-10-15 3:.02am We were never in relegation trouble last season, even after that Villa defeat Would you be able to so confidently exclaim "FACT" if a letter from a solicitor landed on your door asking to retract or back up your opinion? 1) What are you doing up so late - does mummy know! 2) Take of the yellow and green glasses sonny, we were in a relegation battle last season, and will be this! 3) You wish to send me a solicitors letter because I have an opinion?! You have little idea regarding Law, but you are not far off slander. Extricate your head from your backside and you may see clearly, now do one![/quote]

 

Sorry but you are starting to make yourself look a little silly now.

When you start throwing out the word "Fact" at the end of your "opinions", it doesn''t become an opinion any more does it?

But the FACT that your "facts" are nothing more than made up stories, perhaps you are the one who''s not far off slander?

 

[Houston Canary 0]

I gave an example of why claiming we weren''t in a relegation battle, and get told I''m wrong because......wait for it.........several other teams too were involved in the same battle for survival.

Nice job saying I''m wrong because I''m right. Now if only you could read and understand simple ideas instead of adding imagined content that was in no way implied.

Look back at the "we were not in a relegation battle" comments and then re-read mine. That was ALL I was commenting on. The stupidity of such a claim for which I provided evidence.

[nutty nigel 7,510]

Houston, If you''re suggesting I said you''re wrong then you''re wrong[:S] I agree with you that we were in a relegation fight, but I think it''s helpful to add a bit of context by pointing out that so were with half the league. I fully expected us to finish in that half of the league in close proximity to those clubs and I fully expect the same this season. It would help if City2nd would either admit he''s on the wind or perhaps tell us what his expectations are for a decent season this time.

 

After we lost to Villa in our 36th game these were the standings : -

 

11. Stoke P35 40pts

12 Fulham P36 40pts

13 Villa P36 40pts

14 So''ton P36 39pts

15 Norwich P36 38pts

16 Newc P36 38pts

17 Sund P35 37pts

18 Wigan P35 35pts

19 Reading P36 28pts

20 QPR P 36 25 pts

 

It''s worth putting that on here for future reference because City 2nd .... It''s a FACT!

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Houston, If you''re suggesting I said you''re wrong then you''re wrong[:S] I agree with you that we were in a relegation fight, but I think it''s helpful to add a bit of context by pointing out that so were with half the league. I fully expected us to finish in that half of the league in close proximity to those clubs and I fully expect the same this season. It would help if City2nd would either admit he''s on the wind or perhaps tell us what his expectations are for a decent season this time.

 

After we lost to Villa in our 36th game these were the standings : -

 

11. Stoke P35 40pts

12 Fulham P36 40pts

13 Villa P36 40pts

14 So''ton P36 39pts

15 Norwich P36 38pts

16 Newc P36 38pts

17 Sund P35 37pts

18 Wigan P35 35pts

19 Reading P36 28pts

20 QPR P 36 25 pts

 

It''s worth putting that on here for future reference because City 2nd .... It''s a FACT!

 

 

[/quote]

 

Just to add a bit of factual[;)] context, nutty. At that point Wigan''s game in hand was a potentially very winnable home fixture against a Swansea team already quite safe, and qualified.for Europe. A win there for Wigan, putting them on 38 points, and suddenly in particular Sunderland, Newcastle and ourselves woud have  been very much in the relegation mix. Wigan lost, as they did their next game, at Arsenal, and suddenly everyone else was home free. I don''t think there is any doubt that Wigan playing in the FA Cup Final, which was sandwiched tightly between their Swansea and Arsenal games, was a factor in dooming them, and making the relegation danger facing ourselves and those other clubs look less real in retrospect than it was at the time.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]At that point Wigan''s game in hand was a potentially very winnable home fixture against a Swansea team already quite safe, and qualified.for Europe.[/quote]Swansea were already on the beach then? [;)]

[nutty nigel 7,510]

That''s right Purple. But Wigan had that game in hand with all the other clubs in the bottom half too. If it''s as close this season I fully expect us to be in danger of relegation after 36 games. Did anyone seriously expect us to have been comfortable in thew top 10 last season? Or this? It would be nice but it''s not my expectation.

 

 

[City 2nd 191]

nutty nigel wrote the following post at 2013-10-15 7:12 PM:

It would help if City2nd would either admit he''s on the wind or perhaps tell us what his expectations are for a decent season this time.

My expectations NN are that we finish top 10 at least, considering that CH has spent upwards of 27 million on new staff, making the squad his own now I suggest. Personally I believe that is the progress that should be expected, and I believe Bowkett was suggesting the same with his recent statement. What worries me is that we struggled last season, and I do not disagree with you that several other clubs were in the mix until the death and could have gone down. I just think we were fortunate to beat WBA and Man City, but very pleased we did. Had we not, well, who knows! What worries me is that we are still not scoring goals, the same as last season. However, I thought we were capable of one or two when Holty found a bit of form last few games. I like RVW, but do not have the same feeling about him, and whilst he works hard, he doesn''t currently look to have goals in him! In answer to the original post yes I am embarrassed by our current league position, I thought we would beat Hull, and Villa. We didn''t and the defeat against Chelsea has not helped at all with Arsenal and Man City next up with Cardiff in between. I do not see either a strong run of game s without defeat as last season, and defensively whilst using much the same personnel, we don''t look as strong. I don''t remember seeing the points tally thing you mention, but from the next three games I only see one point v Cardiff. I hope I am wrong, but if that does happen many more of us will be embarrassed with our position. I am not a Hughton hater at all, I didn''t like his tactics last season, there is improvement this, but we just seem to still be short of the ability to score goals, which is worrying.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

One fact.[;)] I think all our five League goals have come in open play. I don''t know what the percentage of open play (as against set piece) goals was last season, but it was nowhere near 100 per cent.

[nutty nigel 7,510]

[quote user="City 2nd"]nutty nigel wrote the following post at 2013-10-15 7:12 PM:

It would help if City2nd would either admit he''s on the wind or perhaps tell us what his expectations are for a decent season this time.

My expectations NN are that we finish top 10 at least, considering that CH has spent upwards of 27 million on new staff, making the squad his own now I suggest. Personally I believe that is the progress that should be expected, and I believe Bowkett was suggesting the same with his recent statement. What worries me is that we struggled last season, and I do not disagree with you that several other clubs were in the mix until the death and could have gone down. I just think we were fortunate to beat WBA and Man City, but very pleased we did. Had we not, well, who knows! What worries me is that we are still not scoring goals, the same as last season. However, I thought we were capable of one or two when Holty found a bit of form last few games. I like RVW, but do not have the same feeling about him, and whilst he works hard, he doesn''t currently look to have goals in him! In answer to the original post yes I am embarrassed by our current league position, I thought we would beat Hull, and Villa. We didn''t and the defeat against Chelsea has not helped at all with Arsenal and Man City next up with Cardiff in between. I do not see either a strong run of game s without defeat as last season, and defensively whilst using much the same personnel, we don''t look as strong. I don''t remember seeing the points tally thing you mention, but from the next three games I only see one point v Cardiff. I hope I am wrong, but if that does happen many more of us will be embarrassed with our position. I am not a Hughton hater at all, I didn''t like his tactics last season, there is improvement this, but we just seem to still be short of the ability to score goals, which is worrying.[/quote]

 

Well they''re your expectations so you''ll have to deal with any disappointment. Now I''m guessing that you have quite a few season''s support under your belt. maybe more than me? But I can tell you that in my life, and in the club''s life for that matter, we have only finished top 10 on 5 occasions. It''ll be great if we do it but I believe totally unrealistic to expect it. All those other sides have spent money improving their squads too you know. In this league you have to improve year in year out to even stand still.

 

Now I thought we had a little game where we were guessing how many points we''d get between Villa and Cardiff. I played your game and suggested we''d get 4/5/6 and you laughed at that and said 1 if we were lucky. But it''s 3 already buddy!  I''m sticking with my 4/5/6 you obviously want to revise your prediction now? You need some practice in this predicting lark. So my suggestion still stands. Come onto Rays Funds every week and try and sharpen your skills a little whilst helping other City fans raise money for the CSF.

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,510]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]One fact.[;)] I think all our five League goals have come in open play. I don''t know what the percentage of open play (as against set piece) goals was last season, but it was nowhere near 100 per cent.[/quote]

 

Funny thing facts! If we''d have converted that penalty against Villa we''d have scored as many goals as Spurs....

 

 

[City 2nd 191]

NN wrote:

Well they''re your expectations so you''ll have to deal with any disappointment. Now I''m guessing that you have quite a few season''s support under your belt. maybe more than me? But I can tell you that in my life, and in the club''s life for that matter, we have only finished top 10 on 5 occasions. It''ll be great if we do it but I believe totally unrealistic to expect it. All those other sides have spent money improving their squads too you know. In this league you have to improve year in year out to even stand still.

Well you''re not wrong there NN - 55 years to be precise. Seen lots of disappointments too, gut wrenching and frustrating always., but always try to deal with it. Perhaps the reasons why my expectations are so high! Don''t recall the game mate, but again the old grey matter not as good as it was for sure. But I''ll take a look at the Rays Funds as you suggest. But whatever, I''ll always be at CR cheering them on whilst I am able - but it won''t be for another 55! Would really just like to see us win something one more time, or light up that top 3 in the PL once again - but realistically know that is unlikely now !

[City 2nd 191]

NN just took a look as you suggested - can you just give me a leg up on what to do?

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

We were safe with months to spare in 11-12 season.

In answer to the original question, no I am not embarrassed by our current league position. There are 9 clubs within 3 points of us, half the league.