Why the doom and gloom after just two matches?

[ROBFLECK 132]

Brightside posted: I think the crux of peoples anger is that it isn''t just two matches. We don''t seem to have learnt anything from last season. Playing so negatively away from home for the vast majority of last season was the main reason we found ourselves facing relegation. The majority of supporters me included expected a fresh new approach to go along with the fresh new team. I don''t want to see the same tactics empoyed that nearly got us relegated. Playing over 60 mins against 10 men was a brilliant opportunity to go on the offensive and get 3 points, but we didn''t we kept on playing the same negative passing side to side and backwards football.

I don''t want Hughton out just an immediate change in how we approach games. We''ve spent brilliantly in summer and now we need the approach to games that compliment that.

I agree with this , I was dissapointed saturday, as it looked like a few no shows of last season...which I paid money for (Stoke,...) I felt really bad for the faithfull that had done the trip to Hull. I don''t want CH out either but he really needs a top showing on Saturday.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

hasn''t it been 6 months of poor performances? (apart from 2 games at the end of last season against sides on the beach)

[Highland Canary 76]

[quote user="Herman "]How long would you put up with us losing 5-4 or 3-2?[/quote]

I would hope that different (try to win rather than draw) type tactics might make such a choice irrelevant. However, if I were to choose between going down with a fight as against passively accepting we are not even the equal of teams such as Hull, I would choose the former.

[KeelansGlove 0]

Fully agree with Brightside and Robfleck on this

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

Absolutely spot-on Flecky. This basic premise is what so many of the Hughton apologist do not seem able to get their heads around. For a lot of us it costs a shedload of time and money to be able to get the City matches home and away. And to be served up the sort of dross as we were too often last season , and now at the KC, it''s terribly frustrating and disappointing. The same apologists also seem to deny that we were a whisker away from the Championship last spring, so when those of us who see already a return to the bad old performances of then, it''s not that we get a perverse pleasure out of knocking the club, management or players. It''s just that we see a hefty dose of déja vu, and a lot of writing on the wall to go with it.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Absolutely spot-on Flecky. This basic premise is what so many of the Hughton apologist do not seem able to get their heads around. For a lot of us it costs a shedload of time and money to be able to get the City matches home and away. And to be served up the sort of dross as we were too often last season , and now at the KC, it''s terribly frustrating and disappointing. The same apologists also seem to deny that we were a whisker away from the Championship last spring, so when those of us who see already a return to the bad old performances of then, it''s not that we get a perverse pleasure out of knocking the club, management or players. It''s just that we see a hefty dose of déja vu, and a lot of writing on the wall to go with it.[/quote]

As a Hughton "apologist", I think you''re right to be concerned.  Where I differ with you is on the remedy.   The remedy for me is allowing the manager to get the team playing how he wants - but they are not up to the job yet.   

No manager in his right mind goes away from home and sets up for a draw.   They hope that with a slightly more defensive set up, they will soak up the home pressure and try and score on the break - and win.  But by  the same token a draw away from home is always acceptable.

The issue isn''t with the way the manager sets up his team - its the ability of the players to carry out what he wants.  We get all sorts of nonsense about "He''s not right for Norwich" which to be honest is a load of squit.   The players  he had last season and some this are not technically gifted enough to play the way he wants.  But they are trying - and he is doing the best with what he has available.   the upgrades, once they are all fit and in the team, will demonstrate that he has the right tactics for this level.  

If you want Lambert style football, I''m sorry, but that era is gone.  We are trying to move up a level and compete on a level with top half premier teams.  We have to be patient and let Hughton get on with it.  

 

[The Great Wall Of Tettey 0]

I think hughtons still trying and we need to wait until the end of the window before deciding how were going to do.

He was hit with the loss of hooper snodgrass bassong and fer. That''s arguably 4 players that will play a major part this season.

Next of all he''s got to find the correct system to play them in effectively and I think it takes time.

Swansea arsenal chelsea to name 3 all play 1 striker and it''s a formation that can work

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

Well Lakey, at least you have the bottle to stand out from all the Hughton apologists by agreeing that the many of us who are very concerned are right to be so.

What you are saying though re the players'' ability to put Hughton''s ideas into practice offers a very mixed message. Are you suggesting that players in the squad are unable to carry out even the basic instructions, and that''s why it''s so often gone tits up, or are you saying that they are the wrong types of player to fit into the CH dogma ?. Either way , if true it does not bode well for the future .

[Bws Cat 0]

"I''ve had a season and two matches to judge, and my view is that Hughton''s not the right manager for us"

I thought you said you would give him until Christmas?

Personally, I give him 4 more games. If nothing has changed by then, he has to go.

I put up (just) with last seasons nightmare in the hope that he would get quality players in the summer (which he has) and shape the team into a more attacking force.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Well Lakey, at least you have the bottle to stand out from all the Hughton apologists by agreeing that the many of us who are very concerned are right to be so.

What you are saying though re the players'' ability to put Hughton''s ideas into practice offers a very mixed message. Are you suggesting that players in the squad are unable to carry out even the basic instructions, and that''s why it''s so often gone tits up, or are you saying that they are the wrong types of player to fit into the CH dogma ?. Either way , if true it does not bode well for the future .[/quote]

The basic instructions aren''t the problem - its the passing and moving ability in midfield areas that is the issue.   I think Howson has it in him to flourish this season - especially if he is alongside Fer.   I don''t get the same feeling with BJ, Wes and Tettey.  These three all featured on Saturday and the passing was poor, to say the least.   Every time you lose the ball is an opportunity missed and gives encouragement to the opposition so if they can''t pass it to one of their own team with even simple passes,  they are not up to the quality of the kind of game Hughton is trying to achieve.   He must be as frustrated as the rest of us to see it - but he has to remain positive and try and get the best out of the players he has. 

I am confident he will get it right - the new players will learn to gel better - and the passing and link up play will improve.  We all want top half premiership every season. The only way we are going to get that is if we evolve into the kind of team that defends well, holds on to the ball well, and scores enough to win matches.  We have the defence right.  Most would say we have the strikers.  The midfield will improve, I am certain, but it will take time.   It will improve.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

Fair enough, Lakey. I suppose it''s down to a matter of philosophy then. You clearly believe that CH has (or will have) the correct tactics and strategy to succeed at this level. It''s merely that in the past the players have not been up to implementing them.And now, with the new improved personnel on board , once they''ve got the idea, they are good enough to do what he says competently.

Myself (and several thousand others) believe somewhat differently . ie that the Hughton mantra will not deliver the desired success. Not with last season''s players, and not with this . I''m prepared to concede that it may work when we play MoanUre, Chelsea, Citeh etc, but we should not need to resort to it v the Hulls, Fulhams, Stokes, Palarses of this world.

But time will tell which of us is right.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Fair enough, Lakey. I suppose it''s down to a matter of philosophy then. You clearly believe that CH has (or will have) the correct tactics and strategy to succeed at this level. It''s merely that in the past the players have not been up to implementing them.And now, with the new improved personnel on board , once they''ve got the idea, they are good enough to do what he says competently.

Myself (and several thousand others) believe somewhat differently . ie that the Hughton mantra will not deliver the desired success. Not with last season''s players, and not with this . I''m prepared to concede that it may work when we play MoanUre, Chelsea, Citeh etc, but we should not need to resort to it v the Hulls, Fulhams, Stokes, Palarses of this world.

But time will tell which of us is right.[/quote]

Indeed it will!  [:)]

[KeelansGlove 0]

Sorry LDC I can accept much of your blind faith in CH but if you are trying to tell me anybody thought that the team selection for Saturday was set out for more than a draw I think they need professional help.

Add to this his reaction to the opposition going down to 10 men and I actually think he may have been concussed. Thinking that his normal tactics were too expansive.

You say the issue is not how the manager sets out his team ? with BJ , Tettey , Howson and Fer all in the same midfield ? I know who I would blame. Anybody who thought we would get anything after seeing the teamsheet on Saturday really is a glass half full kinda guy.

We do not have a number 10 who can stop this team being defensive, I can accept that against the top 6 but not against the rest especially not at home.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Sorry LDC I can accept much of your blind faith in CH but if you are trying to tell me anybody thought that the team selection for Saturday was set out for more than a draw I think they need professional help.

Add to this his reaction to the opposition going down to 10 men and I actually think he may have been concussed. Thinking that his normal tactics were too expansive.

You say the issue is not how the manager sets out his team ? with BJ , Tettey , Howson and Fer all in the same midfield ? I know who I would blame. Anybody who thought we would get anything after seeing the teamsheet on Saturday really is a glass half full kinda guy.

We do not have a number 10 who can stop this team being defensive, I can accept that against the top 6 but not against the rest especially not at home.[/quote]

Its a bit more than blind faith to be honest - I''m basing my faith on what Hughton has done at previous clubs  - but you have to admit the manager''s hand were tied a bit by injuries on Saturday.   The only difference I would have had in that line up was perhaps Wes instead of Tettey or BJ. But then Wes didn''t look that good when he came on, did he?  

I know I keep repeating myself but the main problem we have is not tactics its a basic ability to control the ball.   That is down to the quality of players. We are getting improved players in so that aspect should improve.  But it will take time.

[snake-eyes 13]

With respect LDC the passing without Hoolahan on the pitch was pretty poor!

Also l appreciate CH is trying to play a specific way, but if it not working then it may be that the players he has are not good enough to play that way or most likely not suited to playing that way?

In either case there are 2 options.

1. Change the players

2. Change the system

I always believed in playing to your strengths!

Snake

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="snake-eyes"]With respect LDC the passing without Hoolahan on the pitch was pretty poor!

Also l appreciate CH is trying to play a specific way, but if it not working then it may be that the players he has are not good enough to play that way or most likely not suited to playing that way?

In either case there are 2 options.

1. Change the players

2. Change the system

I always believed in playing to your strengths!

Snake[/quote]

Was it that much better when Wes came on?  Of your two  options - it has to be number 1.  Change the players.  Its already happening though! 

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

I''m with Snake on this one Lakey . That said, I''m not so hyper-critical that I''m not prepared to give the players and CH a little time to get it right, but I would caveat that by making 2 points.

Firstly, if these people claim to be Prem players, then it should not take them too long to bed into any chosen philosophy. I would hope that CH has bought them on the basic ability to do the required things (like pass to a guy in a yellow shirt!).

Secondly, if CH sees that the system he''s chosen is not working, then why does he persist with it ? There is never even the faintest sniff of a Plan B or C or D with this manager. It''s all very well asking for time, but the season is only 38 games long, and time is a very scarce commodity at this level.