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grdean

Starting XI Prediction for Southampton

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[quote user="Lavanche"]Take the Howson classes of already ^^ He was very poor in Everton game. He looked bad and stats show he was bad. End of discussion.

If Hoolahan is judged by how many times he lost the ball in ADVANCED role, Howson have to be judged by same criteria. Same time Hoolahan made more chances to cross and shoot in that game than any other Norwich player and completed second most dribbles after Redmond, so clearly you should praise the smaller of H''mans.

In Hull game he seemed to have a good game by stats. Good for him. But he did that in a position where he has more time against a team that was defending quite deep. Two things he is struggling is a that he needs awfully lot time to make good pass althought he seems to have vision and second he doesnt move enought or in a right place after passing the ball.

That is reason why I''m not encouraged to try him as a main source of our attacks. I could be wrong and he would have hell of a game, but if we want playmaker, I would go for Hoolahan and if we just want tall man to link up, I would go Elmander or RvW. If they mess up, change Howson in at 60min and he has half hour to prove me wrong or at least give some positive examples that he could play there in future.[/quote]Lavanche Twitter is watching you.

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Howson was fantastic in the second half against Hull. His passing was accurate and fast and his runs forward were very dangerous and caused problems for the Hull defence (they didn''t want to press out and leave space in behind, nor did they want him to have time to pass or shoot). He was the best player on the pitch and deserves a start against Southampton in the deeper role he played last week.

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[quote user="GJP"][quote user="kiwigreenandgold"][quote user="GJP"]

Given that Howson and Tettey were both rested against Bury I''d be surprised if they''re not in the team. I''m also surprised how many people have left Howson out when he''s been our best player across the first 2 league games.

 

It''s also strange how people can pick Martin ahead of Turner at centreback but I do think Martin could be in the team again because Bassong didn''t look very sharp against Bury.

 

Elmander''s classy performance against Bury makes him hard to overlook but I think that maybe you''ve got to look more towards the future of the club.

 

                    Ruddy
Whittaker Turner Martin Olsson
Snodgrass Tettey Fer Pilkington
                    Howson
                      RVW

 

But I wouldn''t be surprised if we saw Elmander and/or Redmond.

[/quote] Howson our best player in the first two games? Wow I watched two completely different games in that case.[/quote]

Or you might have watched the same games but just don''t understand football as well as me.

 

It happens.

[/quote]

Oh, now I get it.

You''re a comedian.

It all makes sense now.

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Tettey on press duty so looks like he''s starting.

I reckon Hughon will play:

Ruddy

Whittaker Turner Bassong Olsson

Tettey Fer

Snodgrass Howson Pilkington

Rvw

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[quote user="Gnasher"]Tettey on press duty so looks like he''s starting.

I reckon Hughon will play:

Ruddy

Whittaker Turner Bassong Olsson

Tettey Fer

Snodgrass Howson Pilkington

Rvw[/quote]

I''d say that is our best eleven

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[quote user="holtamania"]

"I didn''t see the game but his heatmap tells me...." is up there with the best/worst things I''ve ever read.

[/quote]

Well if you dont catch the point I cant help you. I dont know if Howson played well or not, but people tell me he did, but his heat map says quite much he played most part of the game in our righ flank and not behind the striker.

Got it?

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[quote user="GJP"]

The only way you''d have Howson in the "bottom half of our players in Everton game" is if you were talking utter rubbish.

 

The only player better than him against Everton was Whittaker.

 

And nobody was better than him against Hull.

[/quote]

 

Only able to make 3 out of every 4 passes against Everton, lord knows what you would think of him if he played really well!

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never going to happen but one game maybe against a lesser team

                       Ruddy               martin Turner Bassong

whittaker            fer                       Olsson                                 Snodgrass Howson Pilkington                            Rvw                  

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[quote user="Lavanche"][quote user="holtamania"]

"I didn''t see the game but his heatmap tells me...." is up there with the best/worst things I''ve ever read.

[/quote] Well if you dont catch the point I cant help you. I dont know if Howson played well or not, but people tell me he did, but his heat map says quite much he played most part of the game in our righ flank and not behind the striker. Got it?[/quote]

 

For the first 45 minutes he played on the right wing. Despite seeing little of the ball, he worked hard and created 3 chances on goal, more than any other player on the pitch. Yet it''s fair to say he was marginalised and out of play most of the half.

 

At half time he was switched into a central position and Snodgrass was put on the right. From here he was our best player on the pitch, tidy and accurate on the ball and incisive going forward, continued to look to create chances and tested the keeper with some stinging shots from range, as well as a couple of others that went over. He was, without much competiton, our best player - in a central position, attacking the final third.

 

You don''t get that from a heatmap.

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[quote user="holtamania"][quote user="Lavanche"][quote user="holtamania"]

"I didn''t see the game but his heatmap tells me...." is up there with the best/worst things I''ve ever read.

[/quote] Well if you dont catch the point I cant help you. I dont know if Howson played well or not, but people tell me he did, but his heat map says quite much he played most part of the game in our righ flank and not behind the striker. Got it?[/quote]

 

For the first 45 minutes he played on the right wing. Despite seeing little of the ball, he worked hard and created 3 chances on goal, more than any other player on the pitch. Yet it''s fair to say he was marginalised and out of play most of the half.

 

At half time he was switched into a central position and Snodgrass was put on the right. From here he was our best player on the pitch, tidy and accurate on the ball and incisive going forward, continued to look to create chances and tested the keeper with some stinging shots from range, as well as a couple of others that went over. He was, without much competiton, our best player - in a central position, attacking the final third.

 

You don''t get that from a heatmap.

[/quote]

Bingo.

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You don''t get it from a heat map because some of that is your opinion and now how everyone sees it.

 

"Tidy and accurate on the ball", I can agree with.

"Tested the keeper with some stinging shots from range, as well as a couple of others that went over", I personally think you are overstating the case.

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Ofc I dont and I never said so.

Still we were trailing, we had last 25 minutes 2 strikers front of him and he was playing against a side that was playing quite deep.

Quite different situation than playing a hard pressing side that also wants to score and keep posession. Situation where Howson have looked out of the place most of times. Also if he was so good in the middle why our strikers didnt record any shots from his assists? He did have two targets after all. And this wasn''t provoke, but genuine guestion as outside of his shots and assist for Hoolahan''s shot there was no mentioning about his influence.

Offtopic:

Next time mayby bring these arguments on the table at the start of conversation instead of barking behind the back. Previous time you called me by calling my opinion worst in ages and after I gave you argument back with evídence you just disappeared.

This kind of behavior is quite childish if you ask me and wont take discussion anywhere. I have made very clear in every conversation on this site about Hull game that I havent seen it and I base my opinion of what has been talked here and how that is related with stats and "live commentary" I managed to follow while being away from home.

You clearly have opinion so, please use arguments to prove it, if you think you are right.

I''m a person who knows that every coin has a two sides and I have no reason to not accept other people''s opinion and discuss about them.

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[quote user="Lavanche"]I''m a person who knows that every coin has a two sides and I have no reason to not accept other people''s opinion and discuss about them.[/quote]

 

[quote user="Lavanche"]Take the Howson classes of already ^^ He was very poor in Everton game. He looked bad and stats show he was bad. End of discussion. [/quote]

 

Right.

 

In the Fer thread last week you stated that Howson was the worst midfielder, and said the stats backed you up. When I tried to show the stats demonstrated him as better than Johnson at the very least (as he was the most equivalent midfielder, with them both being given the deeper position), you just ignored it and reiterated the stats back you up. I''ve got little interest in banging my head against a brick wall and trying to reiterate the point.

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I agree Howson was good when moved to the centre on Saturday.

However, personally i think it would be a mistake to play him in the hole because his best attribute (and i think fer might be the same) appears to me to be his ability to burst forward and take shots/get in the box unexpectedly thus casuing problems for the opposition midfield/defence. I would therefore like to see him alongside Fer as the deeper midfield pairing with them taking in it turns to hold/push forward. i suspect, however, that Hughton''s more conservative nature will mean that Tettey gets the nod in that position on the basis he provides more of a defensive barrier.

It is noteworthy that Hughton played Fer, Tettey and Howson together as a midfield trio on a couple of occasions in pre-season where i feel he was at the time selecting what he thought was his strongest available team.

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holtamania:

I stated that Howson didnt create a single chance and ruined a good counter attack after we moved him to center against Everton and this is what the stats proved. Your head might be the brickwall, but that is something you could see with your own eyes, if you dont believe the stats. Ofc if you favour him so much you see everybody else around him doing wrong. That is only humane. That is one of the reasons I like to check stats after game as I''m human also and eye can fool you when you favour or dislike someone.

Johnson was poor at that day, but he did more or less his job and by his standards he was not worse than Howson. You cant expect him to be good with the ball. He wasnt at his best for the defence either, but did average job. I personaly would like to see Howson''s name before Johnson''s name in the team list, but as we need muscle on the field and any stats wont change the fact that Johnson is better in wrestling than Howson. ( Same fact ofc goes that Hoolahan is worse wrestler than Howson). His name needs to be there. Also simply by looking stats again Johnson passed MORE than Howson. Was this because Howson was marked better or didnt he just move enough is different guestion, but they had almost same passing accuracy and Johnson gave 3 long balls more than Howson with similar accuracy and their defensive stats were again quite similar only 1 tackle more for Howson. By eye both looked quite equally average, so at the end I would rate Howson worst of our midfield trio in that game.

Howson style suits more of 3 attacking middlefielders than being 10 with wingers. Where he could shoot challenge or cut outside instead of making and dictating the tempo.

I''m still waiting by the way answer that if Howson was so good, why our strikers didnt get single shot when he was making the plays in the middle in Hull game. As you are sure of your opinion and saw the game, you probably can explain why only player to shine on the second half was in the position where his duty should be to make other players to shine.

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From @paddyjdavitt on twitter:

Injury wise for #saints: hooper no go. Yet to return to light running. Ryan bennett ''touch and go''. Had a couple of stitches in a knee inj

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Right. Chances created - and by this I mean a pass that directly leads to a shot on goal - :

 

Howson - 4

 

The next highest, on both sides:

 

Garrido - 2

Huddlestone - 2

Whittaker - 1

Turner - 1

Snodgrass - 1

RVW - 1

 

Fer? Tettey? Johnson? Redmond? 0. Each.

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One thing for sure is that Southampton will go for it - and rightly so. We HAVE to take it to Southampton, but we WON''T.

Ruddy

Whittaker Bassong Martin Olsson

Fer

Snodgrass Redmond Pilkington

RVW Elmander

This team won''t happen, but with the squad at our disposal, to continue to play negative football is inexcusable.

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I was speaking about Everton game at the top of my pevious post. Just to avoid misunderstandings.

After 45 minutes in Hull game only shot in stats recorded to come from Howson''s pass was Hoolahan''s shot and only shot from a striker came from Garido''s cross by RvW. 3 of his shot leading passes was completed in first half when he was at the right flank. and 2 of them were crosses, not short passes.

So again. Why didnt our strikers get more chances when Howson had a great game in a playmaking position?

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I think it will be (not what i want it to be)

Ruddy

Whittaker turner bassong olsson

Tettey fer

Snodgrass elmander pilkington

Rvw

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Eadie, that''s what I want, but i think Howson, Wes, Martin and Garrido will play as opposed to Tettey, Elmander, Turner and Olsson.

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You can be as facetious as you like but you know full well it isn''t that simple. How about you go and watch the game and come back to me, without setting up a straw man and pretending that the onus is on one player to be the creative lynchpin that the forwards all rely on. Stats are great, I use them all the time, but they''re as useful as a chocolate teapot without context which, without watching, you demonstrably do not have. Then come back to me and tell me Howson wasn''t getting the ball into the final third, tell me that Hull weren''t defending with 2 deep banks and crowding out players in the final third, tell me that collective decision making in the final third of the pitch wasn''t terrible, tell me that he wasn''t a player to actually fire shots towards goal. Please. But to not watch the game but make the decision in your mind, based on match stats, of who played well, or who didn''t do their job, or who does or doesn''t deserve praise? Astonishing.

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[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]If you had to then Holtamania, who is responsible for us losing at Hull?[/quote]

 

For me, it was a collective team failure. It wasn''t helped by selecting a couple of players out of position, but the team didn''t perform well enough, especially in the final third. No one individual or performance is to blame - the game isn''t played in isolation. They were repeatedly incapable of stringing together passes when and where it mattered, repeatedly gave away stupid freekicks and displayed some pretty crap decision making. It was a bad day at the office. I go into more detail on the blog if you fancy giving it a read.

 

What I (and others) have tried to say is that Howson, not only in the opening games of this season but the final 2 or 3 months of last, has put in a number of very good performances in the centre of the pitch, especially when he isn''t burdened with a defensive responsibility. He gets better when he''s able to influence the game in the final third, has a good range of passing, covers a lot of ground and, when allowed to get forward properly, can score goals.

 

Whether that means the creative, playmaking role that Wes has or a more box to box role, who knows. I know I certainly haven''t called him a playmaker in this thread, nor have I called him superb against Hull - just the best we had, on a day with little competition.

 

Incidentally, Lavanche, keep calling me a c**t because I don''t have the inclination to support claims that I haven''t made (and even if I had, I''m at work) - it makes you seem rational and balanced.

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As long as your only agenda in your messages and by twitter is to make me look bad, you are little bit cnut. You personaly insulted me quite many times before I released my first message that included an instult.

You clearly have time at work to keep insulting me so I how could I know that you have no time to give something else for this discussion.

Also if you keep interfering my arguments and state them wrong you are clearly claiming that your opinion differs from mine and I only asked you to stand behind tht before my last post and tried to clarify where I stand.

Not to mention english is my fourth choise language so sometimes I can express myself poorly or understand you wrong, so it shouldnt be so hard to be polite and prove me wrong with something to back up the talk.

For the argument sake Howson had a couple of good games previous season, but only game I remember him playing most of the game in the hole was against Liverpool at other games he was sometimes subbed to play there, but again without nothing worth of mentioning. Also his start for the season was awful and he had very poor games (as most of the team) on the second half of the season too and now his Everton game was a poor one and he is said to have good game against Hull.

So his most succesful games have been as in somewhat box to box role apart from Hull game. Is this enough to play him front of two midfielders? Or is it enough to drop Fer from line-up or play him out of position instead as holding midfielder or as in "10".

This was the point of this conversation. Nothing in Everton game would make me to play him at pocket and what I have seen from Fer gives us more as box to box player. But if he really had that good game against Hull and he managed to create chances from the hole, mayby he would be worth of risk. As said I personaly would give him chance on the second half if Hoolahan or Elmander doesn''t have impact. And I have given quite much detailed arguments from Everton game why I see it this way.

So I''m waiting you to get off from work and give me examples from Hull game why we should play him instead of three players mentioned (as I''m quite sure who ever is 10 we will have at least one almost purely holding midfielder on.)

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