The Hoolahan enigma (again)

[drurys testamonials V 15 0]

[quote user="Herman "]More of a free role behind the front man, where he is best at starting/keeping attacks going.[/quote]

 

For him to be effective in this role we need a stronger midfield to support both him and RVW or whoever else is the lone striker.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="lincoln canary"]

Play wes with better players than howson and BJ and his game will flourish.

 

The reality is we are awfull when wes doesn''t play. [/quote]

 

Hoolahan is one of my favourite Norwich players ever and pretty much ever since he''s been at the club I''ve always thought we''ve looked a better team with him than without him.

 

But if I had to make a choice between him and Howson to stay at the club, I''d go for Howson.

 

I''m not saying Hoolahan can''t play a part or isn''t good enough but I would now say Howson is better equipped to help take us forward.

 

I also think that we need to learn a different way to play. For the last four years we have basically relied heavily on the understanding Holt and Hoolahan built up. Obviously that partnership has now been broken up and while Hoolahan could get an understanding with RVW (or Hooper) we are predictable when he is in the team. His effectiveness has decreased over the last year or so because the opposition have realised his importance and are finding ways to counter it.

 

[ncfcstar 287]

There should be no problem at all here, Wes doesn''t cut the mustard plain and simple.Of course Hoolahan will have his fans, every player does, especially ones who have been so pivotal in our rise through the divisions - that being said, this shouldn''t cloud our judgements.I''m not sure what "stats" people are claiming show Hoolahan as a key player, as far as I''m concerned the only stats that matter for a player in his position are goals and assists - how many did we get from Hoolahan last season?  3 goals and 3 assists - for a player in such a key position who is apparently vital to our success that is pretty poor.Anyone who has spent any time watching Hoolahan over the last couple of years will notice his initial success has been tempered by close marking and quick closing down.  This has led to numerous occasions where Hoolahan has had to turn full circle, or with his back to play and release the ball elsewhere, i.e. not towards the goal, not producing an assist.  Or he will be dispossessed causing the players who have run beyond him during his turn to be out of position, a great example of that being Wigan away last season.A bench warmer at best this season, we have a ready made replacement in Howson for the advanced role if anyone (including Hughton) cares to notice.

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

[quote user="ncfcstar"]There should be no problem at all here, Wes doesn''t cut the mustard plain and simple.Of course Hoolahan will have his fans, every player does, especially ones who have been so pivotal in our rise through the divisions - that being said, this shouldn''t cloud our judgements.I''m not sure what "stats" people are claiming show Hoolahan as a key player, as far as I''m concerned the only stats that matter for a player in his position are goals and assists - how many did we get from Hoolahan last season?  3 goals and 3 assists - for a player in such a key position who is apparently vital to our success that is pretty poor.Anyone who has spent any time watching Hoolahan over the last couple of years will notice his initial success has been tempered by close marking and quick closing down.  This has led to numerous occasions where Hoolahan has had to turn full circle, or with his back to play and release the ball elsewhere, i.e. not towards the goal, not producing an assist.  Or he will be dispossessed causing the players who have run beyond him during his turn to be out of position, a great example of that being Wigan away last season.A bench warmer at best this season, we have a ready made replacement in Howson for the advanced role if anyone (including Hughton) cares to notice.[/quote]Precisely.Wes doesnt get anywhere near enough assists/goals for a player in his position.

However we (and this is only my opinion of course!) always look a lot more dangerous going forward when he''s on the pitch.

[ncfcstar 287]

[quote user="RvWs 4 year contract"]Precisely.Wes doesnt get anywhere near enough assists/goals for a player in his position.

However we (and this is only my opinion of course!) always look a lot more dangerous going forward when he''s on the pitch. [/quote]I don''t disagree with that, but lets face it looking more dangerous is a lot different to actually being dangerous.

[snake-eyes 13]

So who is actually dangerous in our squad instead of Hoolahan?

 

Yes Wes has not got enough Goals and direct assists over the past year, however it is Wes who often creates the assist for the assist if you get my drift.  He is the one who pulls the defense to slide the ball through for a winger or other midfield player who then supplies the ball to the striker or other player in the attacking position.

 

When you play only one up front you neeed support from wide players, other midfield players and regular movement to create the space to pass in to.

 

Last year we were very static with very little go forward support.  This meant Wes was always trying to create something from nothing and holding on to the ball too long because he had no-one to pass to ahead of him.  It was all back and sideways.  No-one is going to be that effective in that situation.

 

Saying Wes is no good in these circumstances is harsh to say the least!

 

Snake

 

[Joey Deacan 0]

[quote user="Downloads"]

Sorry did I hurt your ''I don''t like Wes'' feelings?

 

It was idiotic because he said people were living on past exploits. Actually, I can make my own mind up, without needing to look back on past years.

 

Re circles - Its the usual crud that people talk about, when talking about Wes. I never said the person I was quoting used that statement, I specifically said not to use it in reply, that is all.

 

And if you are using his lack of international call-ups, you obviously have never seen the way they play. Its defend at all costs and score one if you can. Wes isn''t there to be part of a 10 man defence, he''s better than that. Probably much like he won''t be used as much this season, it won''t be until we need to try to win a game that he''ll be called upon.

[/quote]Ok fair point, I just believe that especially in this league the majority of players are almost super human athletes, size, strength, speed and consistency and if they are lacking in one area they make up for in in another, ie size/strength for speed.I do realise that  trying to play a killer ball is a great deal harder that passing it around at the back, but to have someone so inconsistent and lightweight playing in the luxury role behind the striker can almost make us look like a 10 man team at times. On his day, yes I would have him in the side, unfortunately, to me , it seems those days are few and far between.

[Norfolk Mustard 94]

The halcyon days of Chris Martin, Grant Holt & Wes Hoolahan have long gone; but who would like to see Hoolahan playing against us?

 

I think Johan Elmander and Gary Hooper are both strong contenders to play just behind RVW this season…

[OldRobert 38]

At last some common sense being posted about our ''luxury item''.

[morty 0]

I''m sorry, but if you can''t see what Wes brings to the team then you clearly know f**k all about football.

[Syteanric 1]

what does he offer Ferk Off? just to get an understading of your vast knowledge of the game?

[Joey Deacan 0]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]what does he offer Ferk Off? just to get an understading of your vast knowledge of the game?[/quote]Brings the opposition a lot more possession ?

[ncfcstar 287]

[quote user="Ferk off"]I''m sorry, but if you can''t see what Wes brings to the team then you clearly know f**k all about football.[/quote]LOL ok, enlighten us...

[Highland Canary 76]

Unfortunately, Wes conceded possession too easily against Hull. I hope Elmander gets the nod to play behind (not alongside mind you, too 1970 apparently) on Saturday.

[Downloads 35]

Hilarious.

 

You are aware right that he only came on in the 73rd minute? Being asked to change the game with 17 minutes left and 1-0 down, team already playing like a load of sheite, unable to put passes together? Probably Wes'' fault from the bench, nothing to do with the rest of the players who played a lot longer against 10 men and couldn''t pass accurately enough even though they had plenty of time on the pitch and one less man to pass around?

 

You did see the game, right?

[KeelansGlove 0]

I think the quicker we draw a line under that performance the better. I think maybe Hughton was trying to see how badly he could get a team selection if he really tried.

I have been saying it all summer the biggest problem we have with Wes is that playing both him and Snodgrass in the same team will mean we will not score enough goals as neither shoots enough in open play.

If you are playing one up front the player in the hole needs to be looking for 8-10 goals and a similar quantity of assists, whatever happened to that Wes ?

Solve this problem and we just could have a good season !

[Six Pack 92]

jas the barclay king wrote:

what does he offer Ferk Off? just to get an understading of your vast knowledge of the game?

Joey Deacan''s reply:

Brings the opposition a lot more possession ?

The premiership is increasingly only for the tall muscular athletic. Hoolahan is one of smallest players in the league yet for the last 2 seasons has been consistently picked in the team - do you think someone his size would be picked - if all he did was give the ball away to the opposition ?

A post about Hoolahan comes up almost every week. The same stuff is debated over & over again . If you can''t see what Hoolahan brings to the team after all this time then I''m not going to start trying.

Seeing Hoolahan has the best "win" ratio for any Norwich player in the premiership - this proves the team holds onto possession the ball a lot better when he is on the pitch.

Making you & your statement pretty pathetic !

[Tetteys Jig 830]

If Hoolahan was as good as Mata, Oscar, Willian etc then it would be harder to drop him despite all those players needing a system adopted round them and not being renowned for their physicality. There is a question mark over the balance between what Hoolahan contributes compared to what we lose by having to adapt for him. There is no doubt he is a vital squad member, but perhaps Elmander can make that second striker role his own and with Fer/ Howson able to push on, our midfield might not be so withdrawn this season.

[Six Pack 92]

ncfc star wrote:

there should be no problem at all here, Wes doesn''t cut the mustard plain and simple.

Of course Hoolahan will have his fans, every player does, especially ones who have been so pivotal in our rise through the divisions - that being said, this shouldn''t cloud our judgements.

I''m not sure what "stats" people are claiming show Hoolahan as a key player, as far as I''m concerned the only stats that matter for a player in his position are goals and assists - how many did we get from Hoolahan last season? 3 goals and 3 assists - for a player in such a key position who is apparently vital to our success that is pretty poor.

Anyone who has spent any time watching Hoolahan over the last couple of years will notice his initial success has been tempered by close marking and quick closing down. This has led to numerous occasions where Hoolahan has had to turn full circle, or with his back to play and release the ball elsewhere, i.e. not towards the goal, not producing an assist. Or he will be dispossessed causing the players who have run beyond him during his turn to be out of position, a great example of that being Wigan away last season.

A bench warmer at best this season, we have a ready made replacement in Howson for the advanced role if anyone (including Hughton) cares to notice.

A "key" player is a player that influences the team and the result of matches. With Hoolahan it''s not about goals.

Turning in circles - thats the fault of the support players. What would you do if you didn''t have a pass "on" ? Would it be better to not lose possession of the ball?

A good example is the game at Stamford Bridge last season ? - In the first half Hoolahan beat a Chelsea player to the ball, then past another player, then beat a third, looked up - still pass "on" and was knocked off the ball by the third Chelsea player coming back. Is this his fault or the fault of his team mates - they didn''t support him quick enough ?

Howson the ready made replacement ?!!!

Howson doesn''t play in the same position. He has been tried in the "hole" quite a number of times without success - a couple of those games we were pretty badly spanked ! Howson has a role in central midfield carrying the ball out of defence. He did score a couple of goals that have made some people hysterical.

The "hole" for Howson - wanting & actually being able to do it are 2 different things. If you want a lot of goals it my have to be by playing a 2nd striker - perhaps Elmander.

Hoolahan - my judgement is not clouded by the past. He still cuts the mustard !

[Six Pack 92]

GJP wrote:

Hoolahan is one of my favourite Norwich players ever and pretty much ever since he''s been at the club I''ve always thought we''ve looked a better team with him than without him.

But if I had to make a choice between him and Howson to stay at the club, I''d go for Howson.

I''m not saying Hoolahan can''t play a part or isn''t good enough but I would now say Howson is better equipped to help take us forward.

.........................................................................

I think Hoolahan & Howson are 2 of our more attacking midfielders and in a perfect world (a world without muscle) both should be in the team.

It is difficult to compare two players from different positions. Better example - would you pick Howson ahead of Fer ? (if one was to leave the club) to take the club forward.

You certainly wouldn''t compare Howson with Bassong would you ?

or Hoolahan with Bassong

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Six Pack"]GJP wrote: Hoolahan is one of my favourite Norwich players ever and pretty much ever since he''s been at the club I''ve always thought we''ve looked a better team with him than without him. But if I had to make a choice between him and Howson to stay at the club, I''d go for Howson. I''m not saying Hoolahan can''t play a part or isn''t good enough but I would now say Howson is better equipped to help take us forward. ......................................................................... I think Hoolahan & Howson are 2 of our more attacking midfielders and in a perfect world (a world without muscle) both should be in the team. It is difficult to compare two players from different positions. Better example - would you pick Howson ahead of Fer ? (if one was to leave the club) to take the club forward. You certainly wouldn''t compare Howson with Bassong would you ? or Hoolahan with Bassong[/quote]

I see what you''re saying but I wasn''t really making a direct comparison in terms of what type of player they are. It was more about who I think is going to be giving us more in the long term. Which for me is Howson now.

 

While I still think Wes has something to offer I think the chances are that we have probably seen his best days (on a regular/consistent basis). Howson is on the up and there''s more to come.

[Joey Deacan 0]

[quote user="Six Pack"]jas the barclay king wrote:

what does he offer Ferk Off? just to get an understading of your vast knowledge of the game?

Joey Deacan''s reply:

Brings the opposition a lot more possession ?

The premiership is increasingly only for the tall muscular athletic. Hoolahan is one of smallest players in the league yet for the last 2 seasons has been consistently picked in the team - do you think someone his size would be picked - if all he did was give the ball away to the opposition ?

A post about Hoolahan comes up almost every week. The same stuff is debated over & over again . If you can''t see what Hoolahan brings to the team after all this time then I''m not going to start trying.

Seeing Hoolahan has the best "win" ratio for any Norwich player in the premiership - this proves the team holds onto possession the ball a lot better when he is on the pitch.

Making you & your statement pretty pathetic ![/quote]He mad

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

You have to make concessions to team shape and pattern of play for Wes. This often means he is Inherent to creation, often meaning that if he is stifled we are too little of a threat. It can also be observed that others are not always sure what he will do and tend therefore to be a little passive in my view, rather waiting for him to conjure something. Wes does not instinctively shoot early, or indeed often not at all, this is an issue, as a number 10 is ideally much more of a goal threat. Without the pace to link and burst beyond a target 9, Wes is a nightmare to mark, but doesn''t really regularly threaten goals or fast, penetrative assists to PL defences. He is excellent at holding the ball in or near the final third and pulling defences (initially) out of shape as a consequence. I think he is a super player though, as a coach, he does need his particular skills moulded into a functioning unit. The diamond is ideal for him , but this is a huge trade off and much of its success for Norwich was in lower leagues against weaker opposition, where turnover transitions and fast breaking counters were rare on a windy night in Stockport. Our hard won defensively solidity cannot be jeopardised. It allowed us to achieve notable points against top six sides who are on paper better than us. The 4231 shape morphing to 4123 in possession does not really allow the luxury of a centrally focused 9 , (threatening) 10, plus a Wes. 4321 is a strong shape and one I like, though Wes would have to be left of the 2 and I don''t like his tactical discipline drifting wide. He needs a central role, whereby any tactical or defensive work he does is a welcome bonus. As we attract increasing numbers of technically and tactically multi-functional players who give the opposition a clear and ongoing technical threat that they have to counter and do doing lose some of their own potency (A Quagliarella dropping deep and shooting, RvW in behind with darting runs, Hooper predatory box finishes), Wes will be a wonderful, impish addition when chasing a game and a wild card can be played.

[ncfcstar 287]

[quote user="Six Pack"]A "key" player is a player that influences the team and the result of matches. With Hoolahan it''s not about goals.

Turning in circles - thats the fault of the support players. What would you do if you didn''t have a pass "on" ? Would it be better to not lose possession of the ball?

A good example is the game at Stamford Bridge last season ? - In the first half Hoolahan beat a Chelsea player to the ball, then past another player, then beat a third, looked up - still pass "on" and was knocked off the ball by the third Chelsea player coming back. Is this his fault or the fault of his team mates - they didn''t support him quick enough ?

Howson the ready made replacement ?!!!

Howson doesn''t play in the same position. He has been tried in the "hole" quite a number of times without success - a couple of those games we were pretty badly spanked ! Howson has a role in central midfield carrying the ball out of defence. He did score a couple of goals that have made some people hysterical.

The "hole" for Howson - wanting & actually being able to do it are 2 different things. If you want a lot of goals it my have to be by playing a 2nd striker - perhaps Elmander.

Hoolahan - my judgement is not clouded by the past. He still cuts the mustard ![/quote]There is always a pass "on", whether it be forward, back or to the side.  Wes gets caught in possession far too often for you to blame it on other players.  Like I said his turns consistently lead to players running beyond him which completely kills any attacking threat, he must be one of the most infuriating yet exciting players to play with as sometimes he will pull something out of the bag which is brilliant.  But it is not often enough.Howson played in that position against WBA and Man City last year, were you not happy with those performances?  Howson has been tainted in the eyes of some fans because he has been played out of position as one of the two defensive midfielders - if you think that is his natural position then I''m sorry but you''re wrong.  He should be playing in a more advanced role - i.e. in behind the strikers.Next to no one plays a 2nd striker nowadays, and if they do it''s in that same no. 10 position, in the hole.

[Six Pack 92]

ncfc star wrote:

Howson played in that position against WBA and Man City last year, were you not happy with those performances? Howson has been tainted in the eyes of some fans because he has been played out of position as one of the two defensive midfielders - if you think that is his natural position then I''m sorry but you''re wrong. He should be playing in a more advanced role - i.e. in behind the strikers.

Next to no one plays a 2nd striker nowadays, and if they do it''s in that same no. 10 position, in the hole.

...................................................................

You either have a real bad memory or you''re brain dead ! Hoolahan played in the hole both those games last season.

Howson scored in both those games so you probably had multiple orgasms and didn''t know who was playing and where.

Yes I enjoyed those games - our midfield with Hoolahan at point had the opposition on the backfoot from the start. Remember that ?

You remember the Liverpool games ? Now Howson did play in the "hole" in those games. Don''t remember what happened in those games do you ?Talking about "holes" better climb back into yours before you hurt yourself thinking.

[Joey Deacan 0]

[quote user="Six Pack"]ncfc star wrote:

Howson played in that position against WBA and Man City last year, were you not happy with those performances? Howson has been tainted in the eyes of some fans because he has been played out of position as one of the two defensive midfielders - if you think that is his natural position then I''m sorry but you''re wrong. He should be playing in a more advanced role - i.e. in behind the strikers.

Next to no one plays a 2nd striker nowadays, and if they do it''s in that same no. 10 position, in the hole.

...................................................................

You either have a real bad memory or you''re brain dead ! Hoolahan played in the hole both those games last season.

Howson scored in both those games so you probably had multiple orgasms and didn''t know who was playing and where.

Yes I enjoyed those games - our midfield with Hoolahan at point had the opposition on the backfoot from the start. Remember that ?

You remember the Liverpool games ? Now Howson did play in the "hole" in those games. Don''t remember what happened in those games do you ?Talking about "holes" better climb back into yours before you hurt yourself thinking.[/quote]Just quit it Hoolahan, we know it''s you, we expect better young man, pull your bloody socks up

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

Would Hoolahan get less stick if we werent quite so dependent on him?  Dont play him and the team lacks creativity. Play him and everything seemingly needs to go through him, but as he doesnt shoot his output is questioned. Perhaps he was better in League One despite the obvious gulf in class because he was more of a luxury (Holt and Martin both banging them in - Hoolahan given freedom to pull strings and score withouth the pressure being on him)

Perhaps if we had another player who could do what Hoolahan does then he wouldnt be so criticised and his contribution would be seen as a bonus. Hoolahan plays best at the tip of a diamond. In any formation you either accept you''re not going to get goals directly from him or you drop him and watch the team huff and puff without any idea of what to do with the ball. Its quite a pickle. Bring back the diamond! Problem solved  ;)

[Six Pack 92]

Joey Deacan wrote:

Just quit it Hoolahan, we know it''s you, we expect better young man, pull your bloody socks up

................................................................................

ha ha like this Joey !

[Houston Canary 0]

Six-pack, you''re killing me! Funny stuff!!

[Six Pack 92]

Houston wrote:

Six-pack, you''re killing me! Funny stuff!!

...........................................................

Funny ???

I find you a real comic ! Posting from the US.

Watch a few games first before judging my opinion of a player from a thousand miles away !