The Hoolahan enigma (again)

[morty 0]

Infuriating or genius?There was a time the team was built around him, Lambert made the diamond to specifically "solve" the Hoolahan problem.He''s not a winger, he is too lightweight in the tackle really to be a central midfielder.Does he still have a part to play? If so what is it? Thrown on as a panic measure when we have run out of ideas?

[*** 0]

What gets me about him is he''ll beat a player, then try and beat him AGAIN thus giving the ball away and setting up an oppo''s counter attack.

[Mister Chops 7]

The only way you can play him in the middle is as the "1" in a 4-4-1-1, i.e. between the lines in the same way Taraabt was so effective for the hooped sh*te.  And then his need for that extra touch, or to check back because he hasn''t the physical strength to hold defenders off, means he''s playing the ball backwards too much which stops any momentum from being built.Substitute this season.  I think his role will be the proverbial "last throw of the dice".

[SeattleCanary 0]

Probably a bit of both at times. I''m thrilled he''s still here, as I''ve always liked him. He offers something that no one else in the team currently does, and that is the willingness to thread a pass, or I like the way he sometimes can pull a 180 when backed into a defender and is so good at trying to nip away and win a free kick or 2 just wide of the box.

He is a bit light weight, but I think its true when its been said that our best passing football seems to materialise more often when he is on the pitch. I know he makes mistakes, but I do like when he tries something, and it comes off. I loved the goal he set up for Pilks at home to Wigan last season, as he went down under the challenge but somehow managed to get back on his feet to thread it for Pilks to run onto. Being so small must have a good low centre of gravity!

[Herman 9,691]

More of a free role behind the front man, where he is best at starting/keeping attacks going.

[smooth 114]

I think we have bought midfielders that have never really complimented him or challenged him. Howson being the only one, we brought in fox, bj, tettey, butterfield (who was still injured) crofts.

The only player like hoops was Lansbury and he actually had a better vision for that defence splitting pass. I always would have had Lansbury here after that loan period, but it wasn''t

T to be.

I think hoops does not have that defence splitting pass that puts the forward(s) through on the keeper or twists a defence, or has the goal scoring record to warrant a starting place. But we do not have much of an alternative, I think elmander offers something different ad as much of our attack came through snoddy next season I see our wingers being those players. We are not reliant on wes and his left foot. But I really hope we can get a player so he can be on the bench it will show that the team is progressing.

Again he is one of those players that I cannot see a team above us wanting. I think he is valuable to us due to our development over the last few years but I am not so sure that teams are too worried about him, you can contain hoops. Lets hope snoddy, fer, Redmond, elmander can set up rvw and hooper.

[Monty13 2,229]

I would still play him every week. He''ll have good games and bad but we still haven''t bought anyone who can make things happen like he can, until we do we need him in the team or we just don''t seem to create anything.

I actually think the reason Hoolahan is not as successful as he could be is because of the quality of the balls too him. He nearly always receives the ball under pressure with his back to goal. If our midfield could reliably get him the ball in the space between the two banks of four he would cause far more problems. But they can''t, and because they never seem to be able to find him there. he comes looking for the ball.

Yes what he tries doesn''t always come of, yes sometimes he holds onto the ball too long, but at the minute he is the only player we have who unlocks defences. But someone needs to get the ball to him and BJ and Tettey aren''t that guy, I was hoping Fer would be.

[Downloads 35]

Would start pretty much every week in my team too, unless we somehow pulled off a coup and got Toivonen and then I would drop Hoolahan and play him instead.

 

I would always have the best footballers in my team, passing for me is paramount and Hoolahan doesn''t lose the ball that often at all.

[norfolkngood 1,086]

needs to score a lot more goals  to make it worth playing him

[ReadingCanary 0]

Hoolahan is a frustrating oneHe''s probably my favourite player (yes over Grant Holt) of the last few yearsHis commitment to our team has always been brilliant and he has often shown moments of brillianceHis short Free-Kicks however are one of the most infuriating things in football. And as has been stated by previous posters he always tries to do just that bit extra.... which doesn''t always help the teamThe amount of times he has given away possession and the opposing team has countered.... Grrrrrrr....I honestly believe the Squad is screaming out for direct competition for Hoolahan . Someone who can link the midfield and StrikeforceI love the guy, without him in the team, we certainly lack something. Howson is showing some promise.... but I still think we need to pop over to Europe and find a player like Toivonen who can offer him competition.

[JF 694]

Starts every game for me unless a better option becomes available, he is the best option we have in the hole and it doesnt look like we a buying another one, which leaves Hooper when he is back from injury but can he play role and would it be a waste of his talent?

[City 2nd 191]

morty wrote the following post at 2013-08-26 1:54 PM:

Infuriating or genius?

There was a time the team was built around him, Lambert made the diamond to specifically "solve" the Hoolahan problem.

He''s not a winger, he is too lightweight in the tackle really to be a central midfielder.

Does he still have a part to play? If so what is it? Thrown on as a panic measure when we have run out of ideas?

I think during the Lambert reign, particularly lower leagues he was a genius and very skilful compared to opposition midfield players and he certainly made us tick.........

In the premiership he started reasonably well but was soon found out by better players who closed him down quickly, thus suffocating his open style. I agree he certainly is no winger, and is too lightweight at this level, and I believe is the same reason why Trappatoni overlooks him a lot for the Republic. With the likes of Fer,Redmond, Elmander and Olsson coming in, I do not see much room for Wes at all, and would see him as a bit part off the bench as a last resort.

[OldRobert 38]

[quote user="City 2nd"]morty wrote the following post at 2013-08-26 1:54 PM:

Infuriating or genius?

There was a time the team was built around him, Lambert made the diamond to specifically "solve" the Hoolahan problem.

He''s not a winger, he is too lightweight in the tackle really to be a central midfielder.

Does he still have a part to play? If so what is it? Thrown on as a panic measure when we have run out of ideas?

I think during the Lambert reign, particularly lower leagues he was a genius and very skilful compared to opposition midfield players and he certainly made us tick.........

In the premiership he started reasonably well but was soon found out by better players who closed him down quickly, thus suffocating his open style. I agree he certainly is no winger, and is too lightweight at this level, and I believe is the same reason why Trappatoni overlooks him a lot for the Republic. With the likes of Fer,Redmond, Elmander and Olsson coming in, I do not see much room for Wes at all, and would see him as a bit part off the bench as a last resort.[/quote]Hit the nail on the head imo City 2nd.  Excellent in the lower divisions but for the PL nothing more than bench material.  Those who say he plays defence splitting passes.............not these days?  He doesn''t create in this league, he doesn''t score goals, few assists in this league and a tendency to tackle himself as Wiz mentioned.  Yes he made us tick but in the lower leagues not now.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,421]

[quote user="morty"]Infuriating or genius?

There was a time the team was built around him, Lambert made the diamond to specifically "solve" the Hoolahan problem.

He''s not a winger, he is too lightweight in the tackle really to be a central midfielder.

Does he still have a part to play? If so what is it? Thrown on as a panic measure when we have run out of ideas?
[/quote]

 

Excellent question. And I find myself lurching even more than ever from Brilliant to , well, not so Brilliant.

Wes doesn''t fit the mould does he? Far too small , far too one sided, far too weak in the challenge. Then he belies all of this and plays out of his skin, and produces moments that other players cannot.  And CH isn''t the first manager to struggle to find a place for Wes, Trapattoni has the same issues.

But I do think he has a part to play. He still changes direction, and makes a pass as well as any in the squad, but perhaps not as consistently as he should, and even more importantly, he does lose the ball in critical moments. As others have said he needs to be central , as he runs out of space if  he plays against the left touchline.  

I also think he had a great understanding of Holt''s game, and has missed playing with GH under the system that Lambert introduced. Last year the Diamond  wasn''t employed as much (actually it was more than people think - it is an oft used and not always understood description of several different systems - but that''s another story) and when CH wanted a midfield four this was where Wes struggled to affect the game.

And players/ coaches can negate a player that is always looking to turn out onto their left side. Combine that with the increasing standards of the opposition and I begin to think that Wes won''t be used quite as much as he has previously.

 

 

[CDMullins 436]

Wes was better

-In the lower leagues

-Playing behind 2 forwards

We all know Wes is not a winger, so under no circumstances should he be played there, ever.

Wes was productive In League 1 and probably in fairness (to some degree) the Championship.

However that was when he played behind 2 strikers, when he had 2 options in front of him. When he could give the ball to Holt knowing he would retain possession, When he knew Jackson/Martin would be making that run behind the defence. When he knew if he lost the ball it wouldnt be as big an issue as it is in the Premier League.

Wes''s main problem is that if that obvious ball isnt on as soon as he receives it, he dwells and then his physical incapabilites come into play, hes not fast enough to get away from Premier League players, hes not strong enough to hold them off, so finds himself turning and turning and turning in a small circle until the ball is taken off him.

Our number 10 should be a player that offers 10-12 goals. Wes hasn''t got that in him, he can barley reach the goal from the edge of the box.

The Hughton system doesn''t help Wes''s game, if he gets the ball and is driving forward, he only has RVW to aim for, if RVW is marked, (as he often will be by 2 centre halves) its upto Wes to then beat his man and get a shot away or create that opening. Unfortunatley at this level he is not good enough to do it.

He''s clearly a very clever player and has a very good football brain, but physical incapabilites have him limited I''m afraid. Id liken his game and brain to both that of Silva and Mata, unfortunately both Silva and Mata are strong as ox''s, much more direct and faster. But hey if Wes had them he''d be a £20 Million player and wouldnt be playing for us.

One thing I will say is that his defensive game has improved vastly since we were promoted into the Premier League and he never gives less than 110%

Hes been a great servant, stuck with us when we went down, and has rode the wave back to the Premier League, but as I keep saying, I think we have now out grown Wes. Given the way alot of people talk about him on here, his next move could be very interesting, some will probably think he''ll find another Premier League side, but I imagine he''ll end up at Leicester, Bolton, Middlesborough type club.

[damn that Ralph Coates! 47]

[quote user="CDMullins"]Wes was better -In the lower leagues -Playing behind 2 forwards We all know Wes is not a winger, so under no circumstances should he be played there, ever. Wes was productive In League 1 and probably in fairness (to some degree) the Championship. However that was when he played behind 2 strikers, when he had 2 options in front of him. When he could give the ball to Holt knowing he would retain possession, When he knew Jackson/Martin would be making that run behind the defence. When he knew if he lost the ball it wouldnt be as big an issue as it is in the Premier League. Wes''s main problem is that if that obvious ball isnt on as soon as he receives it, he dwells and then his physical incapabilites come into play, hes not fast enough to get away from Premier League players, hes not strong enough to hold them off, so finds himself turning and turning and turning in a small circle until the ball is taken off him. Our number 10 should be a player that offers 10-12 goals. Wes hasn''t got that in him, he can barley reach the goal from the edge of the box. The Hughton system doesn''t help Wes''s game, if he gets the ball and is driving forward, he only has RVW to aim for, if RVW is marked, (as he often will be by 2 centre halves) its upto Wes to then beat his man and get a shot away or create that opening. Unfortunatley at this level he is not good enough to do it. He''s clearly a very clever player and has a very good football brain, but physical incapabilites have him limited I''m afraid. Id liken his game and brain to both that of Silva and Mata, unfortunately both Silva and Mata are strong as ox''s, much more direct and faster. But hey if Wes had them he''d be a £20 Million player and wouldnt be playing for us. One thing I will say is that his defensive game has improved vastly since we were promoted into the Premier League and he never gives less than 110% Hes been a great servant, stuck with us when we went down, and has rode the wave back to the Premier League, but as I keep saying, I think we have now out grown Wes. Given the way alot of people talk about him on here, his next move could be very interesting, some will probably think he''ll find another Premier League side, but I imagine he''ll end up at Leicester, Bolton, Middlesborough type club.[/quote]

This

 - love him, but we have to move on to an AM with a killer pass

[PortlandCanary 0]

I can''t let nostalgia trump pragmatism. Wessi would always have a place on my team, but rarely in the starting 11. Coming off the bench when we need some energy and creativity is where he will be most useful.

[Lavanche 0]

I agree we should get more versatile option for him in the 10 spot, but at the moment in my books he is one of most essential players in the team, if we really want to win games. We have simply none other who could play the spot with his vision, his touch and flair and work rate and without pure 10 we have looke quite awful at least in previous season.

Hughton can prove me wrong, but I doubt it. In my opinion he should play every game where we can believe having around 50% of posession or more or games where we base our attacks for countering trought central link up player.

[Snoddys Jockstrap 0]

we look shit without him, he''s our best player

[JC 0]

Whilst I loved the performance from Redmond at the weekend we looked a lot more dangerous once he was replaced by Hoolahan.

I also think that after seeing 20 mins of Elmander at Hull he will be a right handful in the hole, he made a real difference to our attack, shame we didn''t have the final ball

With regard to Hoolahan, I am very much similar to everyone else, when he is on form he is close to unplayable, the issue he has is sometimes overconfidence and one of the above comments about him beating a man then trying to beat him again is too regular an occurance. Games and points were lost directly from him doing this last season (Wigan away for one off the top of my head)

[Baracouda 47]

I still would be very interested if we played Hoolahan in a deep lying role.

With the 4231 and had Tettey and Johnson to break play up and Wes to run the team, it''s his great passing strength passing and moving starting plays off.

Admittedly defensively we would be weak, but if u play Olsson on left and Redmon as AMC, and Snoddy right there is quite a bit of hard work there.

I believe it''s our great weak area, and would be interesting to see how well or badly it played (of course more for lower teams in league).

[star_manic 0]

The truth of the matter is that Wes does not perform well enough often enough. Wes fans are living on past exploits (much like Fox fans), but we have moved on to a point where, like it or not, we have outgrown him. He still has a part to play, it is just that it is from the bench this season. If we put him up for transfer how many premier teams would show an interest? I would venture to say very few to zero.

[Lavanche 0]

[quote user="star_manic"]The truth of the matter is that Wes does not perform well enough often enough. Wes fans are living on past exploits (much like Fox fans), but we have moved on to a point where, like it or not, we have outgrown him. He still has a part to play, it is just that it is from the bench this season. If we put him up for transfer how many premier teams would show an interest? I would venture to say very few to zero.[/quote]

You know as Championship and League 1 is very hard to follow from Finland I really cant rate him because of his past exploits. I have seen him play there only in few games I watched him live and few most important games of the championship which I had to watch trough shady streams.

For me talent of Hoolahan comes from his games in premiership and stats and results speak for themseves. We always play a bit better football him on the field. Ofc we can upgrade him and we should be looking for upgrade, but at the moment as said so many times he is one of our most essentials players in 4-2-3-1 system.

[Six Pack 91]

[quote user="star_manic"]The truth of the matter is that Wes does not perform well enough often enough. Wes fans are living on past exploits (much like Fox fans), but we have moved on to a point where, like it or not, we have outgrown him. He still has a part to play, it is just that it is from the bench this season. If we put him up for transfer how many premier teams would show an interest? I would venture to say very few to zero.[/quote]

Do you know the difference between sh*t & clay ?

The truth of the matter is you don''t !

[snake-eyes 13]

If Hoolahan is too inconsistent then Howson surely is too!

How have we outgrown him?

Sorry I just don''t get this argument!

Snake

[morty 0]

Wes remains one of the most important players at the football club and should be in the team most weeks

[Downloads 35]

[quote user="star_manic"]The truth of the matter is that Wes does not perform well enough often enough. Wes fans are living on past exploits (much like Fox fans), but we have moved on to a point where, like it or not, we have outgrown him. He still has a part to play, it is just that it is from the bench this season. If we put him up for transfer how many premier teams would show an interest? I would venture to say very few to zero.[/quote]

 

Man, what an idiotic statement.

 

Without saying things like, he runs in circles and loses the ball, he beats the same man twice.

 

Show me one stat that is measurable that says he is worse than anyone else in our team.

 

If Wes'' time is up, fair enough. But Johnson, Howson, Tettey, Bennett, Pilkington would all have to go too in midfield. Snoddy had a good season last time out and Fer and Redmond deserves their chances, but everyone is no better.

 

People say stats aren''t everything, but then use statements like he turns in circles and loses the ball, which is measurable and is proven he barely loses the ball anymore than anyone else, especially given how far up the park he plays where its harder to pass etc.

 

Its all myth and isn''t a matter of opinion. Its why commentators and other people rate Wes, but his biggest detractors remain in his own team''s fans.

[Joey Deacan 0]

[quote user="Downloads"]

[quote user="star_manic"]The truth of the matter is that Wes does not perform well enough often enough. Wes fans are living on past exploits (much like Fox fans), but we have moved on to a point where, like it or not, we have outgrown him. He still has a part to play, it is just that it is from the bench this season. If we put him up for transfer how many premier teams would show an interest? I would venture to say very few to zero.[/quote]

 

Man, what an idiotic statement.

 

Without saying things like, he runs in circles and loses the ball, he beats the same man twice.

 

Show me one stat that is measurable that says he is worse than anyone else in our team.

 

If Wes'' time is up, fair enough. But Johnson, Howson, Tettey, Bennett, Pilkington would all have to go too in midfield. Snoddy had a good season last time out and Fer and Redmond deserves their chances, but everyone is no better.

 

People say stats aren''t everything, but then use statements like he turns in circles and loses the ball, which is measurable and is proven he barely loses the ball anymore than anyone else, especially given how far up the park he plays where its harder to pass etc.

 

Its all myth and isn''t a matter of opinion. Its why commentators and other people rate Wes, but his biggest detractors remain in his own team''s fans.

[/quote]Idiotic statement ??? And why is that , presumably purely for the fact the poster doesn''t not have to the, blinkered, I love Wes T-Shirt that you own ?I for one agree with the statement, where did they state "runs around in circles".Im sure his numerous international call ups for a less than super star studded team proves your point , oh hang on.

[Downloads 35]

Sorry did I hurt your ''I don''t like Wes'' feelings?

 

It was idiotic because he said people were living on past exploits. Actually, I can make my own mind up, without needing to look back on past years.

 

Re circles - Its the usual crud that people talk about, when talking about Wes. I never said the person I was quoting used that statement, I specifically said not to use it in reply, that is all.

 

And if you are using his lack of international call-ups, you obviously have never seen the way they play. Its defend at all costs and score one if you can. Wes isn''t there to be part of a 10 man defence, he''s better than that. Probably much like he won''t be used as much this season, it won''t be until we need to try to win a game that he''ll be called upon.

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

Play wes with better players than howson and BJ and his game will flourish.

I reckon with Fer and Tettey holding and wes in the hole would be the answer.

Generally the distribution to wes from players like BJ and Howson.

The reality is we are awfull when wes doesn''t play.