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morty

Objectivity.

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Being a fan, is it truly possible to be objective about a player?Is that what separates a fan''s opinion of a player from an actual pro, who knows what he''s talking about?Do we get too caught up in the emotion of it all, hoping this lower league diamond we have unearthed will be worth 20 million?Some examples of players that people have got carried away with (My self included in a few cases) being Cody McDonald, Simeon Jackson, James Vaughn, Oli Johnson to name but a few. Does a manager, or someone who actually knows the game have the ability to see players like the above in context of what they can achieve, and us fans don''t?

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[quote user="morty"]Being a fan, is it truly possible to be objective about a player?Is that what separates a fan''s opinion of a player from an actual pro, who knows what he''s talking about?Do we get too caught up in the emotion of it all, hoping this lower league diamond we have unearthed will be worth 20 million?Some examples of players that people have got carried away with (My self included in a few cases) being Cody McDonald, Simeon Jackson, James Vaughn, Oli Johnson to name but a few. Does a manager, or someone who actually knows the game have the ability to see players like the above in context of what they can achieve, and us fans don''t?[/quote]

 

I think you are wrapping together two different points. By definition a professional manager knows more about his players than does a fan. Their view is going to be better informed, and that might make it more objective. They are certainly paid to be as objective as possible. But a fan who knows less can still be objective as far as their knowledge goes, and that knowledge is often enough for a valid opinion.One gets back into the Holt debate at one''s peril but there was a clear split between fans who were looking as objectively as possible at his performance last season and fans who were blinded by sentimentality.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="morty"]Being a fan, is it truly possible to be objective about a player?Is that what separates a fan''s opinion of a player from an actual pro, who knows what he''s talking about?Do we get too caught up in the emotion of it all, hoping this lower league diamond we have unearthed will be worth 20 million?Some examples of players that people have got carried away with (My self included in a few cases) being Cody McDonald, Simeon Jackson, James Vaughn, Oli Johnson to name but a few. Does a manager, or someone who actually knows the game have the ability to see players like the above in context of what they can achieve, and us fans don''t?[/quote]

 

I think you are wrapping together two different points. By definition a professional manager knows more about his players than does a fan. Their view is going to be better informed, and that might make it more objective. They are certainly paid to be as objective as possible. But a fan who knows less can still be objective as far as their knowledge goes, and that knowledge is often enough for a valid opinion.One gets back into the Holt debate at one''s peril but there was a clear split between fans who were looking as objectively as possible at his performance last season and fans who were blinded by sentimentality.

[/quote]I think that a fan''s assessment is a lot more based on opinion, than objectivity. Being a football fan actually has very little to do with logic, if we had kept our money in our pockets instead of getting up at Sparrow''s fart on a Saturday morning, traipsing our way round the country for "entertainment" we''d all be rich!I don''t want to get embroiled in discussing individual players lol (Though I have no doubt some will)

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="morty"]Being a fan, is it truly possible to be objective about a player?Is that what separates a fan''s opinion of a player from an actual pro, who knows what he''s talking about?Do we get too caught up in the emotion of it all, hoping this lower league diamond we have unearthed will be worth 20 million?Some examples of players that people have got carried away with (My self included in a few cases) being Cody McDonald, Simeon Jackson, James Vaughn, Oli Johnson to name but a few. Does a manager, or someone who actually knows the game have the ability to see players like the above in context of what they can achieve, and us fans don''t?[/quote]

 

I think you are wrapping together two different points. By definition a professional manager knows more about his players than does a fan. Their view is going to be better informed, and that might make it more objective. They are certainly paid to be as objective as possible. But a fan who knows less can still be objective as far as their knowledge goes, and that knowledge is often enough for a valid opinion.One gets back into the Holt debate at one''s peril but there was a clear split between fans who were looking as objectively as possible at his performance last season and fans who were blinded by sentimentality.

[/quote]I think that a fan''s assessment is a lot more based on opinion, than objectivity. Being a football fan actually has very little to do with logic, if we had kept our money in our pockets instead of getting up at Sparrow''s fart on a Saturday morning, traipsing our way round the country for "entertainment" we''d all be rich!I don''t want to get embroiled in discussing individual players lol (Though I have no doubt some will)[/quote]

 

I disagree. Being a fan, pretty much by definition, tends to make you subjective about your club. That is largely true. But there is no reason why you can''t be objective about individual players. Take an example from the past (to avoid upsets!). In the 1960s I thought Gordon Bolland was an underrated player who didn''t get enough praise, because he was in the shadow of Ron Davies. But I didn''t remotely think he was as good as Davies. My subjective liking for Bolland didn''t override my objective view.

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I have no idea about those players Purple, so I have no way of knowing if your opinion of them was truly objective or not.I think perhaps you can only know when you look back, and at the time.Let me give you an example of what I am talking about. I watched the U21''s last night and considered Redmond to be man of the match. Now whoever picked motm didn''t agree, and Michael Owen didn''t either.Was my view truly objective, or partly based on loyalty to an NCFC player?

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Interesting topic.

Of course as Norwich City fans we all want the best for the Canaries and I think that sometimes we can let that cloud our judgement. I know in my experience that I''ve prehaps criticised players that have infact been perfectly good enough.

I think it is possible to be objective but that the objectivity often takes a back seat when we''re at games and/or discussing performances.

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I think you''re right Morty. As a supporter I will build up our players to be better than they are. We all do. Two recent threads on here are testament to that. Firstly the possibility that while playing for Norwich there has only been one player capped once for England in a proper competitive international (WC or ENC). The other is all of us imploring Capello to pick MacNamee! I think it''s part of supporting the club to build your players up. What else is a supporter meant to do....

 

Well I''ll answer that too. When we are losing some fans then turn on the players. They hurl abuse at them and make them out as not fit to wear the shirt. For Macnamee read Doherty. Instead of phoning his international manager to get him picked some fans were advocating phoning the blacksmith to get him re-shod.

 

Now in the cold light of day can anybody honestly say that MacNamee is a better attacker than Doc is defender?

 

 

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[quote user="morty"]I have no idea about those players Purple, so I have no way of knowing if your opinion of them was truly objective or not.I think perhaps you can only know when you look back, and at the time.Let me give you an example of what I am talking about. I watched the U21''s last night and considered Redmond to be man of the match. Now whoever picked motm didn''t agree, and Michael Owen didn''t either.Was my view truly objective, or partly based on loyalty to an NCFC player?[/quote]

 

I have no way of knowing the answer to that question. From what you have posted so far a suspicion would be that loyalty to NCFC entered into it. But I don''t know.

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[quote user="RvWs 4 year contract"]Interesting topic.

Of course as Norwich City fans we all want the best for the Canaries and I think that sometimes we can let that cloud our judgement. I know in my experience that I''ve prehaps criticised players that have infact been perfectly good enough.

I think it is possible to be objective but that the objectivity often takes a back seat when we''re at games and/or discussing performances. [/quote]But then surely, once the game is past, and everyone has calmed down, they should be able to take stock, and come to a more reasoned conclusion?I think that some people are guilty of making a snap judgement on players, and are totally unwilling to bend on it, regardless of facts presented.

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Interesting Morty.

The point is valid; what is seen is different because what is looked at is different.

In line with the tendency to judge the performance as a consequence of the result, a fan would have the understandable tendency to watch the action of the match and thus judge players according to Opta key moments.

A manager or scout will watch many, many games, but will often be referred to as watching a particular player. What a player does off or without the ball is critical to assessing his potential influence and it is hard to make a detailed judgment if this if you are watching the "match" as a fan would. This is not a true reflection of the value of players as (in simple terms) the major events may be a poor reflection of the pattern of the game and the component parts within it. For fans the major events are everything and they inevitably watch the ball.In the case of the Southampton game for example I was particularly interested to follow Fer on and off the ball to develop a better understanding of his game (particularly in the role that I felt was best suited for him). As a consequence I paid far more attention to Bradley Johnson''s work off the ball than I previously had. I realised I had underrated his tactical intelligence and that his positional sense and awareness are beyond that which I had previously credited him for.

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Interesting debate, and please be aware of semantics in what follows.

 

Every decision we ever make, including whether we like a player or not, is made to satisfy an emotional need within us.  Therefore we don''t make decisions to satisfy our logics, we don''t have logics, we have emotions.  However, all the decisions you make, at the time you make them, you think are logical, well of course you do you made them.  I would be very surprised if you have ever deliberately set out to make a decision you thought was illogical, of course you may have thought t was a millisecond later, when as a result of your decision a whole load of new data has come flooding in.

 

So, every fan and every manager makes decisions to satisfy their emotional needs and it is these emotional needs that may differ wildly.  The fan has an emotional need to see his club do well, the manager probably has the same emotional need but has many others alongside, including the emotional need to have a team which gels, and the emotional need to keep his job, etc.

 

On top of this you come with a brain which is hard-wired to prove you right, so depending on the values and beliefs you have (opinions) you will see things to prove you right.  For example, I believe Snoddy shouldn''t be taking our corners and free kicks, because his delivery is not of the required standard, so after each game I remember all the times he hit the first man, etc. and conveniently forget the times he hit the target.  This of course only goes to prove my opinion right, to me!!

 

So, (in my opinion) we are all always subjective about our players but often believe we are being objective.  Even a rocket scientist, whilst needing to be very objective and logical about taking the steps needed to build a rocket must initially have the emotional need to do so, or he wouldn''t be doing it!  So maybe we can separate fans and managers into two factions, those who act like rocket scientists (manager) and those that stare in wonderment and bewilderment, asking the question, "How do they do that" and "wouldn''t it be better if..." (fans).  Both are driven by an emotional need, the emotional needs differ.   

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What is interesting Morty is that with some pundits or ''experts'' I have heard them refer to a previous team of theirs as ''we''.

 

In such a case last week I think it was Michael Owen who refered to Liverpool as ''We''

 

This would intimate an in grained bias or leaning which would render their opinion as rather subjective rather than objective.  Even if the context was negative, the general perception after this would be of impatiality to some degree.

Therefore i believe no one is truly objective, rather everyone is subjective. It is just to what degree that subjectivity is expressed.

Snake

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="RvWs 4 year contract"]Interesting topic.

Of course as Norwich City fans we all want the best for the Canaries and I think that sometimes we can let that cloud our judgement. I know in my experience that I''ve prehaps criticised players that have infact been perfectly good enough.

I think it is possible to be objective but that the objectivity often takes a back seat when we''re at games and/or discussing performances. [/quote]But then surely, once the game is past, and everyone has calmed down, they should be able to take stock, and come to a more reasoned conclusion?I think that some people are guilty of making a snap judgement on players, and are totally unwilling to bend on it, regardless of facts presented.[/quote]That''s definitely true- r.e the snap judgement. Going back to Grant Holt. When he was in the form of his life and had scored all those goals in the Premier League I and many of us on here were calling for him to get a call up. Yet other fans from other  clubs didnt want him to.Did i want him to get a call up because I purely thought he was good enough or was I blinded by the fact that he was/is a Norwich hero? Would I have wanted him to get a call up if I hadnt been a Norwich fan?I guess I''ll never know.

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It''s very hard for people to change their opinion of a player once they have made a judgement. From that point we look for evidence to support our prejudice rather than taking an objective view of someone''s performance.

You hear it all the time at the ground, there''s a guy in front of me who has decided that Howson is too lightweight, Howson can be having a great game which goes totally unnoticed, he loses one fifty fifty and the bloke starts moaning.

We all do it to some extent but its rarely objective IMO.

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[quote user="RvWs 4 year contract"][quote user="morty"][quote user="RvWs 4 year contract"]Interesting topic.

Of course as Norwich City fans we all want the best for the Canaries and I think that sometimes we can let that cloud our judgement. I know in my experience that I''ve prehaps criticised players that have infact been perfectly good enough.

I think it is possible to be objective but that the objectivity often takes a back seat when we''re at games and/or discussing performances. [/quote]But then surely, once the game is past, and everyone has calmed down, they should be able to take stock, and come to a more reasoned conclusion?I think that some people are guilty of making a snap judgement on players, and are totally unwilling to bend on it, regardless of facts presented.[/quote]That''s definitely true- r.e the snap judgement. Going back to Grant Holt. When he was in the form of his life and had scored all those goals in the Premier League I and many of us on here were calling for him to get a call up. Yet other fans from other  clubs didnt want him to.Did i want him to get a call up because I purely thought he was good enough or was I blinded by the fact that he was/is a Norwich hero? Would I have wanted him to get a call up if I hadnt been a Norwich fan?I guess I''ll never know. [/quote]On that particular point, the fact he was the second highest English goal scorer in the PL behind Wayne Rooney, and the fact Rickie Lambert is being called up now, despite obviously not being part of the long term England set up means, in my opinion, Yes, he did deserve a call up.But am I being truly objective? Who knows?

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Part of the problem is that fans sometimes expect a player to be doing something (and will judge him against that) even though the manager might have asked him to do something different.

 

For example, people might criticise Garrido for not getting forward but Hughton might have told him not to cross the halfway line, let Redmond do the work in the other half.

 

Another part of it is unrealistic expectations. I''ve lost count the number of times I''ve seen or heard people say we need an attacking midfielder who scores 10-20 goals a season. How many of those are there around and how much do they usually cost?

 

Or just unrealistic expectations during a match. There was a moment in the Everton game when Howson was given the ball just infront of the Jarrold. He was already surrounded by blue shirts and he had nowhere to go. So he launched a speculative ball forward which was exactly the right thing to do. Yet there was some whinging from the crowd, like they had expected him to do produce some dazzling skill to waltz past Fellaini and co like they weren''t there.

 

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On top of what''s been said above, the pundits, people who choose MOTMs, and even those around a manager will also be subject to emotional bias. Owen will big up Zaha over Redmond, say, partly because of a personal and/or former club connection, not purely as an objective exercise.

 

Some managers will have a built-in attraction to certain personalities or types of player that other managers don''t share but have their own preferences, so although they make footballing decisions when building and selecting their teams, even they will never be totally objective.

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The whole Holt for england thing; i found it that most ''plastic'' fans didn''t want him to be called up, as they probably didn''t watch any game without the top 4 sides featuring each other.

A lot of the fans of lesser clubs were backing the move. I thought he should have been given a run out in one of the friendlies before the tournament, but England at the time wanted someone younger.

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[quote user="thefutureisyellow"]It''s very hard for people to change their opinion of a player once they have made a judgement. From that point we look for evidence to support our prejudice rather than taking an objective view of someone''s performance.

You hear it all the time at the ground, there''s a guy in front of me who has decided that Howson is too lightweight, Howson can be having a great game which goes totally unnoticed, he loses one fifty fifty and the bloke starts moaning.

We all do it to some extent but its rarely objective IMO.[/quote]Or is it more possible that someone who actually knows a bit more about the game can look past his prejudices and pick up the subtleties of the game?Ergo, someone who is prone to snap judgements and is unwilling to have his mind changed, probably doesn''t know as much as he thinks he does?

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[quote user="Ray"]

Interesting debate, and please be aware of semantics in what follows.

 

Every decision we ever make, including whether we like a player or not, is made to satisfy an emotional need within us.  Therefore we don''t make decisions to satisfy our logics, we don''t have logics, we have emotions.  However, all the decisions you make, at the time you make them, you think are logical, well of course you do you made them.  I would be very surprised if you have ever deliberately set out to make a decision you thought was illogical, of course you may have thought t was a millisecond later, when as a result of your decision a whole load of new data has come flooding in.

 

So, every fan and every manager makes decisions to satisfy their emotional needs and it is these emotional needs that may differ wildly.  The fan has an emotional need to see his club do well, the manager probably has the same emotional need but has many others alongside, including the emotional need to have a team which gels, and the emotional need to keep his job, etc.

 

On top of this you come with a brain which is hard-wired to prove you right, so depending on the values and beliefs you have (opinions) you will see things to prove you right.  For example, I believe Snoddy shouldn''t be taking our corners and free kicks, because his delivery is not of the required standard, so after each game I remember all the times he hit the first man, etc. and conveniently forget the times he hit the target.  This of course only goes to prove my opinion right, to me!!

 

So, (in my opinion) we are all always subjective about our players but often believe we are being objective.  Even a rocket scientist, whilst needing to be very objective and logical about taking the steps needed to build a rocket must initially have the emotional need to do so, or he wouldn''t be doing it!  So maybe we can separate fans and managers into two factions, those who act like rocket scientists (manager) and those that stare in wonderment and bewilderment, asking the question, "How do they do that" and "wouldn''t it be better if..." (fans).  Both are driven by an emotional need, the emotional needs differ.   

[/quote]

 

No. I don''t have, for example, an emotional need to regard Darren Huckerby as a better winger than Anthony McNamee. I couldn''t care less about the issue. They were just Norwich City footballers, and I have seen too many over seven decades to play favourites. It is my clear-eyed view that Huckerby was better.You may have a point that some fans of one club are sentimentally subjective when comparing their players to those of other clubs, as perhaps morty was being. But it is possible for fans to be objective (clear-eyed might be the better term) about  players within the context of their own team.

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Heres a point to ponder, I shall give you Mr Darren Huckerby (Probably the most exciting player I have seen grace our hallowed turf)One England B call up.So based on that, he really wasn''t very good, was he?

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International callups are also to do with timing, and specifically the quantity/quality of cover for their specific position in the national team, during the prime years of the player in question. Similar to how he was excellent for us at a time when we needed someone like him, but he wasn''t so fortunate at Man City etc. regarding the competition in their squad.

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[quote user="GenerationA47"]International callups are also to do with timing, and specifically the quantity/quality of cover for their specific position in the national team, during the prime years of the player in question. Similar to how he was excellent for us at a time when we needed someone like him, but he wasn''t so fortunate at Man City etc. regarding the competition in their squad.[/quote]I struggle to remember a player that solved "the left side problem" for England.I should imagine Darren himself thinks he could have brought something to the England team.

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"Ergo, someone who is prone to snap judgements and is unwilling to have his mind changed, probably doesn''t know as much as he thinks he does?"

That''s undoubtedly the case, there''s a fair few of them around CR on match day.

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Hi Purple,

 

As I said beware of semantics, however if you truly didn''t care less about the issue, then you would not consider one better that the other, every action we take reflects the emotions we feel (it is scientifically proven).  So somewhere deep in your subconscious there was an emotional need to consider who was the better player, just as I had an emotional need to write this post.

 

Therefore there has to be the emotional need to be ''clear-eyed'' before you believe your are acting in a clear-eyed manner and as your brain is hard wired to prove you right, you would absolutely believe you are being clear-eyed.  Does it always feel like it, no it doesn''t but that''s the way our brains operate.

 

Now, you may still not agree with me and then again you might, because you will have an emotional need to stick by your guns or take on board other information, "neither is good nor bad, except your thinking makes its so"  William Shakespeare, Hamlet

 

This can be a mind-blowing topic to get into but I find it fascinating.

 

 

 

 

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Sorry for bringing this onto individual players. 

 

I never seemed to rate Daryl Sutch that highly, however he must have been doing something right to make over 350 appearances under several different managers. Perhaps he just quietly and efficiently did his job?[:^)]

 

I did think and still do that David Phillips was a superb midifielder, I struggle to think of any better than him for Norwich - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd9E1wtb_Dg

 

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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]

Sorry for bringing this onto individual players. 

 

I never seemed to rate Daryl Sutch that highly, however he must have been doing something right to make over 350 appearances under several different managers. Perhaps he just quietly and efficiently did his job?[:^)]

 

I did think and still do that David Phillips was a superb midifielder, I struggle to think of any better than him for Norwich - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd9E1wtb_Dg

 

[/quote]Its a reasonable example, I have seen Daryl Sutch take a fair bit of stick on here.Though, I suspect that a lot based this opinion on one penalty kick he missed, which shows the validity and quality of said opinion.

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norfolkbroadslim wrote:

Sorry for bringing this onto individual players.

I never seemed to rate Daryl Sutch that highly, however he must have been doing something right to make over 350 appearances under several different managers. Perhaps he just quietly and efficiently did his job?Huh? [:^)]

I did think and still do that David Phillips was a superb midifielder, I struggle to think of any better than him for Norwich - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd9E1wtb_Dg

Its a reasonable example, I have seen Daryl Sutch take a fair bit of stick on here.

Though, I suspect that a lot based this opinion on one penalty kick he missed, which shows the validity and quality of said opinion.

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Ray, I''m afraid your argument reminds me of a Ben Elton sketch, where a gay man comments on every man''s sexuality as they enter a bar.

According to him, they were all also gay. Or in denial about being gay.

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