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The Great Mass Debater

What if Worthington never got the sack..?

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With our ''retrospectospecs'' on, I would be interested in people''s opinions on Nigel Worthington. Pretty much plucked the club out of 2nd tier mediocrity and took us to the Premiership. We played our part in the story of that season, but were always fighting for our lives. Reading Huck''s book, it seems that Worthy worked with some pretty tough constraints from the board (not his or the boards fault, simply a sign of the times and the finances). The Ashton situation is well documented in that he wanted to bring him in in the summer, but the board did not back him (or simply couldnt) at the time. Had we had Ashton for the whole season there is no doubt in my mind we would have survived, so narrow were the margins by which we went down. Anyways, that is by the by. When we were relegated that season, it would seem from Huck''s books that Worthy did the very best he could, but with limited resources, could only replace those players that left following relegation with sub-standard replacements - but what else could he do? The football style became hoofing, and the fans started baying for his blood.

After the fans got what they want, in came Peter Grant, Glenn Roeder and Bryan Gunn and the club deteriorated until THAT low point. Then of course all change and the rest is history. Forgetting the Lambert resurgence and just considering the period following Worthy''s sacking right up to relegation to League One, my question is this - everyone wanted Worthy out, not knowing what would follow, and in the hope/expectation that in jettisoning the scapegoat, things would automatically improve - however, what would have happened if Worthington had not been sacked and we''d kept the faith? Do people still think we would have been relegated to League One? Would he have turned it around if there''d been more patience? Could he have mounted another promotion challenge like he did before? Would whatever his continued reign might have brought have been any worse that what actually happened with Grant, Roeder and Gunn?

Me personally? Id be surprised if we''d have been relegated, but Im not sure we would have made much of a challenge. I think it would probably have been mid-table finishes with us getting to the play-offs if we were lucky - but I think that would have been better than what we actually got

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Once a club/fans have lost faith with its manager, there is no solution but for that manager to leave.    Worthy had shot his bolt.  But if he had stayed, I doubt if we would have been any worse than what we got.   He might even have rebuilt,  but more likely we would have struggled to mount a challenge in the championship.   As for the premiership season, getting rid of Iwan and Malky was like committing hari kari, before a ball had been kicked.  

But he did well to get us where he did and we should be grateful for those two or three seasons, but if he had stayed, we might not ever have reached that low point of no return and the subsequent kick start to set us on to where we are now..............

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The demise of our club was down to the likes of Doomcaster, I very much doubt Worthy would have done any worse than Peter Grant and looking back I feel very bad about the way he was treated.

His hands were largely tied at times and did the best he could with limited resources, he said in an interview with Hucks that he wanted Ashton in the summer but was told no. Our board wanted PL survival on the cheap and we paid the price and Worthy got the blame.

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[quote user="lake district canary"]Once a club/fans have lost faith with its manager, there is no solution but for that manager to leave.    Worthy had shot his bolt.  But if he had stayed, I doubt if we would have been any worse than what we got.   He might even have rebuilt,  but more likely we would have struggled to mount a challenge in the championship.   As for the premiership season, getting rid of Iwan and Malky was like committing hari kari, before a ball had been kicked.  

But he did well to get us where he did and we should be grateful for those two or three seasons, but if he had stayed, we might not ever have reached that low point of no return and the subsequent kick start to set us on to where we are now..............

[/quote]

Malky was still with us at the start of that season. There was an interview with him as Norwich Captain in, I think, the Independant on the day before the first game of the season. I think he was still here for the first few games but injured and was sold before he ever played.

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Malky and Iwan could definitely have been useful squad members that season, if only for their influence in the dressing room. He felt he couldnt afford to keep them and their wages though, which tells you everything about the clubs finances back then. There was no 25 man squad back then, so if we''d have had the money we could have kept them. Financial pressures clearly felt their portion of the budget could be better used on someone else. Hucks certainly thinks they''d have been an asset

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I remember being shocked about Malky going when we had been promoted.  Basically the club didn''t want to pay a loyalty bonus (£250k I think) that he was due that autumn so negotiated a deal to sell him to Coventry and he got told about it while he was away with the Scotland team in pre-season.  He managed to get a better deal to go to West Ham (more money for both him and the club). 

 

We ended up playing Simon Charlton at CB that season, a decent fullback but under 6 foot and totally out of his depth at CB.  Given how close the margins were at the end of the season, I think we''d have survived if we had kept Malky, or got Ashton in at the start - either would have been enough.

 

In restrospect of course a massively false economy to let him go.  You do wonder how much it cost to get someone like Helveg in who did ok after a dodgy start but probably was on fairly hefty wages.

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People on here talk about Malky as if he was the love child of Maldini and Beckenbauer. He was promoted three times and let go every time, that should tell you something.

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[quote user="Ginja"]The demise of our club was down to the likes of Doomcaster, I very much doubt Worthy would have done any worse than Peter Grant and looking back I feel very bad about the way he was treated.

His hands were largely tied at times and did the best he could with limited resources, he said in an interview with Hucks that he wanted Ashton in the summer but was told no. Our board wanted PL survival on the cheap and we paid the price and Worthy got the blame.[/quote]

 

Nonsense. The board backed Worthington to the hilt in trying to get promotion, but that reduced what was then available that summer. Worthington''s view, which he set out in that interview, was that we should have followed the disastrous example of Hull and spent millions more than we could afford. It is there in black and white.

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[quote user="RvWs 4 year contract"]What if McNally had been in charge when Worthy was boss...




[/quote]

 

Would we still have signed Hucks and won the Championship by 8 clear points with a +40 goal difference?

 

I suppose we''ll never know. But after 2 years of protest and 6 of dross Worthy brought a smile back to our club. What would have happened if he stayed? Again who knows. I thought he was treated really badly and I think the board learned a lesson about managers who lose the fans. Had the board acted sooner much of the nastiness would have been avoided. That doesn''t excuse some of the stuff that went on though.

 

I''ve got great memories of 2002/5. As happy a time at the club as I can remember. Probably because for a generation of fans success was unknown similar to when I was 15 in 1972.

 

 

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If Worthy had never been sacked the entire history of the world would have been different.The beat of a butterflies wings in the Amazon, etc, etc.

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The public execution of Worthington at the Burnley match was one of the few times I''ve been ashamed to be a Norwich City fan.  He was treated appallingly by the supporters and by the board who hung him out to dry with the "2 game ultimatum".

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So Fenway, you think we did better in 2004/05 playing with a 5''8" left back at centre back than we would have done with a 6''1" centre back who''d played that position all his career? I''m certain that Mackay and Fleming were a better pairing than Charlton and Fleming and I''m pretty sure that we would have survived that first season if Malky had stayed.

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[quote user="Mister Chops"]The public execution of Worthington at the Burnley match was one of the few times I''ve been ashamed to be a Norwich City fan.  He was treated appallingly by the supporters and by the board who hung him out to dry with the "2 game ultimatum".[/quote]the whole worthy out bandwagon made me ashamed to be a norwich fan, i found some solace in gobbing on worthy out protesters as they marched down riverside but it was scant consolation .

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I too felt ashamed of the "worthy out bandwagon"......he didnt deserve it by some way.....you''d have thought some would have learnt from it....BUT, we still get glimpses of similar attitutude towards the management on here at times, particularly if the team dare to go on a bad run of a few games.

Anyway, had he not left? ....well, I think it would have been mediocrity for a couple of seasons without the fall to the third tier and actually believe he was capable of a rebuild and ultimate progression. As a foot note, how have Northern Ireland performed since he left them?   

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[quote user="Mister Chops"]The public execution of Worthington at the Burnley match was one of the few times I''ve been ashamed to be a Norwich City fan.  He was treated appallingly by the supporters and by the board who hung him out to dry with the "2 game ultimatum".

[/quote]

 

His dignified interview later that evening, after he was sacked, stood him apart head and shoulders above everyone else that day.

 

"Worthington''s green&yellow Army"

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

His dignified interview later that evening, after he was sacked, stood him apart head and shoulders above everyone else that day.

[/quote]

I suppose a severance cheque for £600K in his back pocket that evening allowed a certain amount dignity.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

His dignified interview later that evening, after he was sacked, stood him apart head and shoulders above everyone else that day.

[/quote]

I suppose a severance cheque for £600K in his back pocket that evening allowed a certain amount dignity.[/quote]

At least we know what Worthy walleted. [;)]

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This thread has prompted me to join the message board.

I was shocked that we got rid of Malky when we did.

If you watch the footage of the goals against us that season the majority of scorers are standing next to Craig Fleming. There''s a headed goal from a corner where Fleming doesn''t even challenge for the ball.

IMHO we should have kept Malky and sold Fleming.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/n/norwich/5397320.stm

Some very interesting interviews. A video with Delia and MWJ (click watch on standalone player- that''s how I got it to work!) and a radio bit with Worthy.

He was sacked in 2006! It seems like a lot longer ago to me! We''ve had some real dross since Worthy havent we?

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I agree with Trevor Hockey''s Beard to a degree. We should never have let Malky go then. Also remember his insistence on playing Henderson? I''ve never seen a player so out of his depth. Too many mistakes all round for me

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I agree with Lakey on this. You can debate about what NW did or did not do, whether Malky should have left, tactics etc for ever and a day, but the simple fact was that the powers that be recognised that the majority of fans , and by all accounts the majority of senior players, had lost faith in him . When that happens, a manager''s position effectively becomes untenable. The interesting thing is how many managers have flirted with that scenario...SAF in his first year at OT, for one. Also Wenger seems to be getting that way at Arsenal

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]I agree with Lakey on this. You can debate about what NW did or did not do, whether Malky should have left, tactics etc for ever and a day, but the simple fact was that the powers that be recognised that the majority of fans , and by all accounts the majority of senior players, had lost faith in him . When that happens, a manager''s position effectively becomes untenable. The interesting thing is how many managers have flirted with that scenario...SAF in his first year at OT, for one. Also Wenger seems to be getting that way at Arsenal[/quote]

 

If Worthy could have turned it round, what do you think needed to change to get the fans back on-side? It seems he was made the scapegoat for the stars being sold and their replacements being naff - which to me is very unfair. But was it purely that? Was it results? Was it the style?

If Worthy had managed to put a few back to back wins together would it have all calmed down a bit? (football fans can be fickle  ;)  ) or was it the hoofing style people disliked? Or was the hoofing and assassination of Andy Hughes simply any old dirt to throw at Worthy that could be found due to the disappointment of being relegated? If results had picked up would he have had a stay of exectution? Or was the die already cast?

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Ultimately the calibre of players Worthy had in the first championship season after relegation with, was easily capable of pushing for promotion. But we were mediocre.

What if Glenn Roeder or Bryan Gunn were never managers?

We complain about Glenn Roeder & Bryan Gunn. But they signed Wes Hoolahan and Grant Holt respectively, 2 of the most influential players in our recent history.

We can ask what if, but ultimately, nobody knows the answer its an ambiguous question. We just have to enjoy this premier league season!

Hughtgon out!!!!

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Both Debater and Mad Dog ask some fair questions. I do not think the OP ''s question was ambiguous. Perhaps rhetorical ?

In parallels to the current debate about CH, it''s clear that many people felt that if Worthy had played a better style of football and employed more adventurous tactics, we could have stayed up in the 04-05 season. The fact that nothing seemed to be improving in the year thereafter meant that there were too many people had written him off for his position to be tenable. You are right, football fans ARE fickle, but, to my mind, he''d had long enough to convince the waverers, and by the Burnley match everyone had seen enough. True, his treatment at that game was disgraceful, but, in the end he had to go, there and then. It would be difficult , even for top spin doctors,to "big up" the Roeder, Grant, Gunn era, despite their signing of key players.

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Strange how we all see things differently. I thought we got relegated because we were too open. We certainly weren''t defensive or negative. Not with Hucks in the team. Was interesting to hear Hucks talking about those days a couple of years ago. He made it quite plain that he had no time for the whole Worthy Out campaign. He told how it affected the dressing room and Worthy personally. Worthy may have lost the fans but he certainly didn''t lose his senior players. It was interesting that evening to see people who''d been involved in all that Worthy out stuff keeping schtum after Hucks made his feelings known. At the time those same people used to make out that Hucks was somehow a victim of Worthy and wasn''t behind him.

 

It''s all part of history now. But I have great memories of Worthy and the smile he put on the whole club. Yeah he walleted £600,000 Tilly but if the tin had come round I''d still have found a couple of quid to wish him well[:P]

 

 

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He was a pleasant enough chap, but he''d really lost his way at Carrow Road, and I think he knew it. I think he was just seeing his contract out and was quite possibly grateful to the board for putting him out of his misery. Anyway, if the board had hung on to him I think we would have slid down another couple of divisions with the bitterness, rancour and disharmony between the different fans factions only worsening. His position was completely untenable and the board were too slow to act. Thank goodness it''s all history now.

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What amazes me is the Malky Mackay stuff.

 

He was a grand servant for our club and scored some memorable goals but Bobby Moore he wasn''t. In fact, whenever we played against Premier opposition in Cup competition, Everton and Southampton spring to mind, he was made to look big, cumbersome and slow.

 

Had we retained Malky as first choice centre half, he''d have missed half the season through suspension and we''d have been down before Easter. Loved the bloke for what he did for us and the goals against the scum, but christ, he had the turning circle of a fully laden oil tanker!! Worthington might have got some things wrong, but letting Malky go and get first team football somewhere else certainly wasn''t one of them.

 

And anyway, we ended up with the Doc...

 

 

 

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Perhaps by "adventurous" I should have put "sophisticated" Nigel. Too much hoofball.I''d agree that we weren''t defensive, but it was the quality of defenders we had that was lacking . And I agree with Warren that Malky would not have been the answer. Hughton has had his critics (me included), but you can see what the signing of a quality defender like Bassong has meant. Worthington''s judgement in his recruitment for the Prem was highly suspect, though of course the decisions may have been out of his hands. The fact that there was no tangible improvement in the year after relegation was what did for him. Not really a concerted campaign by players or fan groups.

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