No stadium expansion for 2/3 years

[Sussexyellow 55]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Graham Paddons Beard"]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="swindoncanary"]McNally said it would cost £30 million to expand and at the moment it''s all going on the players budget. I''m all for that, but with the ''continual improvment'' mindset, I can never see us having £30 million spare.The thing that worry''s me is attracting new young supporters, if they want to go to a match it''s usually a parent or relation that takes them, unfortunately looking at the tickets for sale at the Villa or Chelsea match, it''s impossible to get two seats together and it''s the same for ever home match.     [/quote]

I don''t know what the "churn" rate is but there must be at least a thousand people every year who give up their season tickets for whatever reason (financial, loss of interest, death etc).Far better to have a waiting list than empty seats and a £30 million debt.[/quote]

 

I largely agree with this. Each year, the decision to spend £20m (I''m not sure it has ever been £30m? - I think the UEA were commissioned a few years back to look into the costs and came up with £20m) against staying in the prem , will always be tricky. And I have to ask the question how many of us know people that can consistently not get tickets? Don''t confuse this with how many cannot afford tickets, for that is a different argument, If you really want a ticket, you can generally get one. If you are on the waiting list, have joined as a member, and keep an eye open, you can get a ticket to most games.

 

[/quote]

 

A cost of "up to £30m" is the figure that has been given by the club before and is the phrase used by McNally again in this latest Q&A.

[/quote]

My personal experience take on both these points is that on casual tickets I have had no difficulty getting them as a priority/super member (save for the Man U game which is sort of to be expected). If block H is not available for home support then it can be a pain getting two seats together, unless you go for one of the River End corners. I choose not to do that but get two seats close to each other in a better viewing position. That I accept would not be ideal for a father taking his kid(s).

On the season ticket waiting list when I joined it was believed to be around 2000 long. I am now inside the top 300. So the churn this summer was say 1500 possibly more. It would be interesting to know whether the list has now shrunk overall, and whether we should no longer be quoting a waiting list of 2000 in these debates.

On a separate point I do agree that a policy is needed to encourage the next generation of supporters and the ground capacity to implement it. Initiatives like kids for a quid should be part of any expansion programme. Personally I would also want to keep the atmosphere of a sold out or near sold out stadium. So for me expansion to around 30k would be the target - albeit I have not seen any viable schemes for such an option discussed. (That said I do understand the economies of scale arguments of those advocating an immediate leap to 35k.) 

[GenerationA47 751]

Nice one Snakey, good to learn I have an ocularly herpetological brain!

 

 

Photo of the Estadio Vicente Calderon: http://www.stadiumguide.com/wp-content/gallery/vicentecalderon/vicentecalderon4_0.jpg

[Sussexyellow 55]

[quote user="GenerationA47"]

Nice one Snakey, good to learn I have an ocularly herpetological brain!

 

 

Photo of the Estadio Vicente Calderon: http://www.stadiumguide.com/wp-content/gallery/vicentecalderon/vicentecalderon4_0.jpg

[/quote]

Possibly they could fit a hotel into one of those corners!

[......and Smith must score. 1,341]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Thirsty Lizard"]Morty and Purple Canary - a while back in another thread on the same issue I explained that the club have already thought about the issue of what to do about season ticket holders while a new City Stand is being built.

What they are considering doing is building a new City Stand over two seasons - building the left half one season and the right half the next (or the other way round).

This would mean only reducing the capacity by 2,000 for the season while the first half was being built - allowing the club to keep all season ticket holders happy and keep the present away allocation as they are required to do by PL rules (although it would be very difficult to get casual tickets for that season).

For the second season - the increased capacity in the newly built half of the City Stand would mean that there would be no problems fitting everybody in.[/quote]Oh right, I must have missed that, I have to admit I never considered a "Right half and left half" scenario.Would it be two tiers, or much the same as the Jarrold?[/quote]So that''ll put the kibosh on the " We''re the right/left side over ''ere " song reverberating round the City Stand then......[:D]

[morty 0]

[quote user="......and Smith must score."][quote user="morty"][quote user="Thirsty Lizard"]Morty and Purple Canary - a while back in another thread on the same issue I explained that the club have already thought about the issue of what to do about season ticket holders while a new City Stand is being built.

What they are considering doing is building a new City Stand over two seasons - building the left half one season and the right half the next (or the other way round).

This would mean only reducing the capacity by 2,000 for the season while the first half was being built - allowing the club to keep all season ticket holders happy and keep the present away allocation as they are required to do by PL rules (although it would be very difficult to get casual tickets for that season).

For the second season - the increased capacity in the newly built half of the City Stand would mean that there would be no problems fitting everybody in.[/quote]Oh right, I must have missed that, I have to admit I never considered a "Right half and left half" scenario.Would it be two tiers, or much the same as the Jarrold?[/quote]So that''ll put the kibosh on the " We''re the right/left side over ''ere " song reverberating round the City Stand then......[:D][/quote][URL=http://s869.photobucket.com/user/mortymccarthy/media/640232a712_zps57437961.gif.html][IMG]http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab257/mortymccarthy/640232a712_zps57437961.gif[/IMG][/URL]

[Bill 1,788]

"On a separate point I do agree that a policy is needed to encourage the next generation of supporter"

BIGGEST urban myth regarding tickets and fansThe biggest drop off in season ticket sales is when youngest move over to the adult ticket price.The kids for a quid was great idea to fill up the empty seats but did little to generate future adult ticket sales.Anyone who has been going to watch city will know of loads of ''happy clappies'' who are season ticket holders but never went anywhere near the ground the previous few decades. Were they put off from attending now because the couldn;t get in during the 70''s, 80''s and 90''s .. of course not. Mostly because there were loads of empty seats standing area etc.What drives attendances is success. Yes you can generate ticket sales by lowering the price when that success is not there but it is NOT a means of generating future ticket sales. Generating future City fans perhaps, but not ticket sales.The answer to all this nonsense about getting the kids in is that we have had virtual sellouts for the past 4 seasons or more, yet there is still demand from folk saying that they want to take their kids. Surely if the claim about losing the next generation is true why have these kids not gone elsewhere after being denied access to games. Why if they were so desperate to see Norwich City do cu games not see a huge increase in ticket sales to kids.The truth is it is the quality of the opposition that determines the ticket sales. Stay in the PL and the demand will be there, but don''t delude yourself that we have a god given right to be in the PL for the next 20 years.

[Fergodsake 0]

Yes its a balancing act city1st, no one is disputing that, but its not absurd to think that investment in infrastructure is important.On the other hand, your kids for quids example is a little flawed, kids transfering to adult prices also coincides with the point that individuals tend to start having to pay for things themselves. Many people in their late teens and early 20s cant afford modern football prices, so will stop going as regularly as soon as price go from 1 pound to 30 plus. That doesnt mean that as their income increases they wont go more often, it just means that drop of is natural and may lead to a later rebound.Also there is the issue of how long the TV deal will remain in its current form, we cant bank on the current egalitarian split lasting for ever. If the biggest clubs push through any form of single club bargaining, our notional fan base will all of a sudden look pretty important, in which case plastic canaries who only go to a few games a year may suddenly be a key to financial success. 

[Sussexyellow 55]

[quote user="City1st"]"On a separate point I do agree that a policy is needed to encourage the next generation of supporter"

BIGGEST urban myth regarding tickets and fansThe biggest drop off in season ticket sales is when youngest move over to the adult ticket price.The kids for a quid was great idea to fill up the empty seats but did little to generate future adult ticket sales.Anyone who has been going to watch city will know of loads of ''happy clappies'' who are season ticket holders but never went anywhere near the ground the previous few decades. Were they put off from attending now because the couldn;t get in during the 70''s, 80''s and 90''s .. of course not. Mostly because there were loads of empty seats standing area etc.What drives attendances is success. Yes you can generate ticket sales by lowering the price when that success is not there but it is NOT a means of generating future ticket sales. Generating future City fans perhaps, but not ticket sales.The answer to all this nonsense about getting the kids in is that we have had virtual sellouts for the past 4 seasons or more, yet there is still demand from folk saying that they want to take their kids. Surely if the claim about losing the next generation is true why have these kids not gone elsewhere after being denied access to games. Why if they were so desperate to see Norwich City do cu games not see a huge increase in ticket sales to kids.The truth is it is the quality of the opposition that determines the ticket sales. Stay in the PL and the demand will be there, but don''t delude yourself that we have a god given right to be in the PL for the next 20 years.

[/quote]

Too simplistic City1st to claim that youngsters are lost when they move to adult prices. Yes cost will be a factor but other priorities will also be a big influence a key one being pursuit of academic goals. Particularly when this involves a move away from Norwich to attend Uni or College. Yes these supporters maybe lost from attending for a number of years but if they return a decade or so later when they are economically independent because they caught the bug as kids then surely that must be an initiative worth pursuing for the long term health of our club.

If we expand to a 35k stadium or possible something smaller in a few years then I think we could be looking to fill empty seats, so kids for a quid could well come back into its own. If that helps generate lifelong supporters again I can only see that being good for our club.

Where I would agree with you totally is that the primary driver of attendance is success on the pitch.

[Bill 1,788]

Sorry, but it is your logic that is flawed. The evidence is that those johnny come latelies who are now much in evidence are NOT those who came in as kids and are returning later. Early attendance has little to do with it.Likewise you upside down logic regarding the TV money. The figures show that the cost of an increase in capacity could not be covered by ticket sales an associated income therefore it would have to be subsidised. Without the TV money where would taht subsidy come from, given that the likelihood would be an even lower ticket income.But sadly we have been here before umpteen times however just for old times sake -A new stand 4000 more seats would cost £20-30m - interest alone £2 -£3m400 extra seats equals 1/7th more seats income - £1.6mthat presumes that the extra capacity can be sold at current prices - it won''tit presumes that all games will be sellouts for the next 20 yearsit presumes we remain in thePL for the next 20 yearit presumes TV money remains to cover losses ........... ?"our notional fan base will all of a sudden look pretty important,"but they will never pay the cost of redevelopment alone - the question is whether we have a few million subsidy now or a far bigger subsidy (burden) further down the line ?

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="City1st"]The truth is it is the quality of the opposition that determines the ticket sales. Stay in the PL and the demand will be there, but don''t delude yourself that we have a god given right to be in the PL for the next 20 years.[/quote]

We had full houses in League1..................

[Fergodsake 0]

Its not upside down in the circumstances I described, where TV money starts to be split in a similar way to the Spanish league. In that circumstance it doesnt matter if you go to every city game, its whether you will stretch to watching it on TV. My point is entirely separate to any current assessment of whether stadium expansion pays its way in todays climate, a climate that I dont think will last for ever. I dont think we have been through that before, so I think it was worth bringing up personally.

[Bill 1,788]

most of those were season tickets sold before relegationticket prices were held very low to attract sales ...something that could not be done when there is a £20/30m debt to payand as I said "What drives attendances is success." something we had in that seasonit is not simplistic yellow, it is you failing to grasp the nub of the point ie if we are successful ''fans'' will turn up irrespective of whether they caught te bug years before, if not then they don''t turn up"If we expand to a 35k stadium or possible something smaller in a few

years then I think we could be looking to fill empty seats, so kids for a

quid could well come back into its own"that is insanity by the bucket full ! ! !what part of the debt will NOT be met at current prices and full capacity do you not grasp ? The figures are there to see quite plainly ... it is absurd to think that the club could build, thinking that there would be empty seats and that you could fill them for a quid a time ?what planet are you on ?what happens if we lose PL status or TV money ?the subsidy would be bad enough at the moment without having to meet a far higher subsidy in the championshipquite disturbing to read some of these posts

[Bill 1,788]

Its not upside down in the circumstances I described, where TV money starts to be split in a similar way to the Spanish league. In that circumstance it doesnt matter if you go to every city game, its whether you will stretch to watching it on TV. My point is entirely separate to any current assessment of whether stadium expansion pays its way in todays climate, a climate that I dont think will last for ever. I dont think we have been through that before, so I think it was worth bringing up personally.

Sorry, but I haven''t a clue what that is supposed to mean

[Fergodsake 0]

Ha fair enough, sorry I had a long shift today, ill try to make my point another time after a good nights sleep.Or ill probably forget all about it, never mind.

[Rolf Harris 31]

Don''t worry guys, city1st is only against as he would have to move seat.

[chicken 2,624]

I love how stats make or break arguments.

If you were to ask me where the biggest drop off in sales would be I would always say where children''s prices end and adults begin. It''s the same in almost any entertainment industry that charges that way.

Primarily because of two things. At 16/17/18 parents are still having to shell out a fair bit for their kids and perhaps cannot afford to pay the increase in ticket cost. Instead they sometimes share tickets etc.

You are also looking at an age where young people go away to university and so are a)skint, b)too far away to regularly attend.

Then you have the bit where younger people tend to be earning less due to being at the beginning of their careers - perhaps renting etc and not having the ready funds for things like season tickets or even to attend casually on a regular basis. Especially if you can just go to the local and watch some games there.

So I would expect there to be a drop off between late teens and perhaps mid to late twenties.

But the kids for a £1 does work, not straight away, but it gets youngsters into games that they might not necessarily get the opportunity to see otherwise and right there you could be creating another future fan that may one day earn an income to return on a casual basis or on a season ticket.

It really isn''t rocket science.

But reducing those sorts of offers for a season or so is hardly going to be a problem.

[Bill 1,788]

Che''s right hand - Don''t worry guys, city1st is only against as he would have to move seat.

oh dear, are you from suffolk as you don''t appear too bright ?

for the record I would love to see a brand new stand in place of the main stand (as stated on numerous other times)and I do not sit in the Main Stand or ever haveI am no more against expansion than I am against signing Mess ......

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="chicken"]I love how stats make or break arguments.

If you were to ask me where the biggest drop off in sales would be I would always say where children''s prices end and adults begin. It''s the same in almost any entertainment industry that charges that way.

Primarily because of two things. At 16/17/18 parents are still having to shell out a fair bit for their kids and perhaps cannot afford to pay the increase in ticket cost. Instead they sometimes share tickets etc.

You are also looking at an age where young people go away to university and so are a)skint, b)too far away to regularly attend.

Then you have the bit where younger people tend to be earning less due to being at the beginning of their careers - perhaps renting etc and not having the ready funds for things like season tickets or even to attend casually on a regular basis. Especially if you can just go to the local and watch some games there.

So I would expect there to be a drop off between late teens and perhaps mid to late twenties.

But the kids for a £1 does work, not straight away, but it gets youngsters into games that they might not necessarily get the opportunity to see otherwise and right there you could be creating another future fan that may one day earn an income to return on a casual basis or on a season ticket.

It really isn''t rocket science.

But reducing those sorts of offers for a season or so is hardly going to be a problem.[/quote]

is there actually a point to that ?

[lappinitup 629]

Patience City1st, it''s only his second post since Jan 2007, you may have to wait a while before he replies. [:D]

[Bill 1,788]

we have to presume he hasn''t been posting since - under another name(it does go on you know)

[Sussexyellow 55]

People posting under different names - surely not. Do you have insider knowledge City 1st? Or is that a bit of a Boring question?

[KeelansGlove 0]

Personally I would suggest a few things would be necessary to make expansion a goer.

1) limited disruption. Either building a new stand over the existing one or this 50/50 idea if it works.

2) limited funds saved over a number of seasons ie 5M over 4 years.

3) a bond scheme ie getting perhaps 2000 people to commit to purchase a new season ticket for 3 years (this triggers the upgrade)

This would cover around 23M with the shortfall being made up of a mixture of sponsorship and hopefully additional premiership seasons.

This would ensure expansion would only occur if it could be paid for and also have a target to achieve for those that think its unfair that they cannot get tickets currently.

[ricardo 7,384]

All we need now is mention of Bristol Rovers, Sainsburys (or was it Tesco''s), The Norfolk Showground and Peppercorn rents and this thread will slowly start to slide down Tom Cavendish Street.

[Sussexyellow 55]

And on the other point City1st. I am not advocating expansion with kids as a quid as an objective as I am sure you well realise. More musing that finding a way of selling empty seats could be an outcome of over ambitious expansion and thinking of a beneficial way of filling them.

[birchfest 397]

I think that it''s important to remember that the time scale is under the condition we are still a premier league side.... A further 2-3 seasons would suggest we have a competitive squad that wouldn''t require a huge amount spent on it, perhaps only 2 or 3 faces coming in during each window.

This coupled with the ever increasing TV money and marketing deals ( especially if we become established) would probably see 30 million being a much more manageable figure.

The risk of spending the money and going down will always be there, but in the medium to long term I think that the expansion would eventually go towards further assisting our stay in the top flight; bigger match day income and another feature to attract top players.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="birchfest"]I think that it''s important to remember that the time scale is under the condition we are still a premier league side.... A further 2-3 seasons would suggest we have a competitive squad that wouldn''t require a huge amount spent on it, perhaps only 2 or 3 faces coming in during each window.

This coupled with the ever increasing TV money and marketing deals ( especially if we become established) would probably see 30 million being a much more manageable figure.

The risk of spending the money and going down will always be there, but in the medium to long term I think that the expansion would eventually go towards further assisting our stay in the top flight; bigger match day income and another feature to attract top players.[/quote]"especially if we become established) would probably see 30 million being a much more manageable figure"ye gods, there is a fear that this is not a jokeit is highly unlikely a club of our size will ever become ''established''  as with almost all the other clubs outside of the top seven or eightwe either borrow the £30m and accept that we will have to subsidise the expansion for the next 20 years ie it will cost more in INTEREST payments alone than it will generate in ticket sales at MAXIMUM price and FULL capacity for EVERY game or we save £5 a year for the next five or six years ....... which we have to presume comes off the playing budgetnow were that crackpot scheme to come into fruition, on current ticket prices we would be around £1.6m better off, if and a big, if we can still sell out all games at maximum prices - we would not, we are not at the moment so that figure would easily scale down to £1.2m extra at best" and another feature to attract top players"four thousand extra seats and taht is going to attract top players/maybe the money used towards subsidisng this expansion and paying for it might attract top players as you would be surprised what an extra million or more a year will do to a players interest

still, as before the thread has followed it''s usual coursethe eventual acceptance that there isn''t any real logistical answer to where to put 4000 of the most influential fans for a season or more....... to the refusal to engage with the true costs by diverting the debate to the ''poor horphans'' who are being denied access to to Carrow Roadas that fails (as before) we venture into the land of the weird and wonderful ............. as now seen by the suggestion that an extra 4000 seats will attract top playersdearie, dear me

[tom cavendish 0]

The club would be mad to risk Premier League football by redirecting £30m away from the first-team to building a new stand.The priority will continue to be to stay in the Premier League. Should the club be relegated then the priority will be to return to the Premier League.£30m is an awful lot of money to pay for a relatively small increase in stadium capacity. Therefore the club will have to look for creative ideas as to how to achieve a stadium with a greater capacity without the cost having a detrimental impact upon the first-team.Future options:A) New Investment & FFP. If all Premier League clubs strictly abide by the FFP reg''s then it will mean that new investment in the club couldn''t be spent on players. However, if the club invested new money in a new stand then the additional ticket revenue etc. generated could be used towards financing the team.B) A new stand to incorporate facilities that largely finance the cost of the stand (e.g. in partnership with the UEA).C) New stadium (e.g. in partnership with the council and/or UEA).D) A combination of the above.However, consider that viewing habits are moving towards on-line viewing of matches. The future business model might be to sell tickets at low prices to compete with viewing via the internet, and for that the club would likely need a much bigger stadium.

[Bill 1,788]

"as that fails (as before) we venture into the land of the weird and wonderful .."

and, as on cue, up he popsTCas mad as ever

[flecky76 0]

Is it me or is there a certain irony in the fact that people bemoaned Robert Chase in the early 90''s for putting bricks and mortar before before squad strengthening, yet people now questioning why we are not getting on with the rebuilding of the new City Stand quicker? Hmmm...

[birchfest 397]

Ahhh city1st I don''t mean in the actual physical sense of 4,000 more seats.... More the implication that by then we would hopefully be a club challenging for a Europa league spot (a dark horse for it mind) and that as a complete package we just become a more attractive option.

As for the established thing, your correct... Being truly established doesn''t really happen outside the top 6 any more, however I still feel that financially it would become viable with knowledge that we would be more likely than not be in the top flight season after season. What can I say, for me it''s less about the aesthetics and more the idea of the club becoming even more self sustainable in the event that financial fair play ever really gets introduced or the bottom falls out of the tv money....

That said I completely agree, the squad before bricks and mortar, I just think that if we are still top flight in 2-3 seasons time we probably wouldn''t be seeing huge team overhauls every summer.