No stadium expansion for 2/3 years

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

[quote user="Thirsty Lizard"]Morty and Purple Canary - a while back in another thread on the same issue I explained that the club have already thought about the issue of what to do about season ticket holders while a new City Stand is being built.

What they are considering doing is building a new City Stand over two seasons - building the left half one season and the right half the next (or the other way round).

This would mean only reducing the capacity by 2,000 for the season while the first half was being built - allowing the club to keep all season ticket holders happy and keep the present away allocation as they are required to do by PL rules (although it would be very difficult to get casual tickets for that season).

For the second season - the increased capacity in the newly built half of the City Stand would mean that there would be no problems fitting everybody in.[/quote]

 

Thanks. I''d missed that previous post. If that is feasible from a construction point of view then it makes perfect sense. The only point I would make is that last winter Bowkett, talking about all the difficulties, mentioned having to relocate 4,000 people. He didn''t say it could be done in stages. Possibly this half and half solution has been dreamed up since.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Sussexyellow"][quote user="morty"]My take on expansion is this. I don''t believe the foundations on the current City stand are up to expansion, and the facilities inside the stand are also a bit dated, so really starting from scratch is the best option. A bigger stand will straddle Carrow road, so obviously there may be some planning issues there.If we can afford it, and it has no detrimental effect of player purchases, we should go straight to about 35k. Building a wee bit, then a bit more will work out more expensive, and will just prolong disruption.

[/quote]

Morty that would be a fair old replacement for the City Stand to get an extra 8k seats. I think I could go along with your argument if it was done in stages. Build a stand that could be easily expanded once demand was there.

This is what Brighton did at the Amex. Completed an extra tier on the East Stand plus corner infills. Done very quickly and at low cost. I think some of it was done just for the Arsenal cup tie - so expansion in days. Obviously all the preparatory stuff, like environmental reports were already in place. 

I guess it was a good way for them to test the water - coming from the Withdean and crowds of about 4.5k it must have been difficult to assess what capacity they would need.

[/quote]I think though, with that being a much more modern stadium, it was probably a lot easier to expand in that way.The club has already said that a lot of the facilities inside the stand need updating. I think basically building a new City stand with an option to add on isn''t really satisfying any criteria.I don''t think for a minute we will fill a 35k stadium week in, week out, but crowds of maybe 30k with the odd sellout when the "big" clubs come visiting isn''t out of the question.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

Like you Morty, I''d never hard of this "half and half" idea. But it sounds interesting. I can only assume that CR is not a public highway, if the fact that it''s cordoned off on matchdays to enable people to flog programmes, burgers and souvenirs is anything to go by.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Like you Morty, I''d never hard of this "half and half" idea. But it sounds interesting. I can only assume that CR is not a public highway, if the fact that it''s cordoned off on matchdays to enable people to flog programmes, burgers and souvenirs is anything to go by.[/quote]Yeah you could well be right there re Carrow road[Y]This whole subject has been talked about for so long and so much on here that I forget what exactly is fact, and what is just forum speculation!

[Indy 3,297]

I''m not sure there would be a need to worry about where to sit season ticket holders as surely the plan would be to build around the City stand and above it? I would be amazed if you could not use the current seating and stand as the lower tier and build up behind and above the current stand, thus minimal disruption.

 

The biggest problem would be road and foundations for the second tier, but I might be well off the mark.

 

I tend to agree though, we are now building a squad which on paper is the best we have had and if we intend to spend more on the team then great for the time being, as said I doubt we would fill anything over 32,000 on a regular bases, but it would be nice to complete Carrow Road with a second tier on the City stand and a small corner infill below the Hotel.

[GenerationA47 751]

Talking of building over Carrow Rd, that could be taken literally.. has anyone else seen Atletico Madrid''s stadium? There is a full-blown road passing underneath one of their largest stands.

 

It looks kind of cool although that is also to do with the constraining river and the great setting, while there is no necessity at CR given the new road. However, still a possible option for pedestrian porpoises... should they eventually go for a gigantic construction.

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

[quote user="Indy"]

I''m not sure there would be a need to worry about where to sit season ticket holders as surely the plan would be to build around the City stand and above it? I would be amazed if you could not use the current seating and stand as the lower tier and build up behind and above the current stand, thus minimal disruption.

 

The biggest problem would be road and foundations for the second tier, but I might be well off the mark.

 

I tend to agree though, we are now building a squad which on paper is the best we have had and if we intend to spend more on the team then great for the time being, as said I doubt we would fill anything over 32,000 on a regular bases, but it would be nice to complete Carrow Road with a second tier on the City stand and a small corner infill below the Hotel.

[/quote]

Bowkett has said the opposite - that the best solution would be to knock the whole stand down. He didn''t say if it wasn''t technically feasible to do what you are suggesting (which is what Fulham are doing). Supposedly the facilities in the City Stand are antiquated and that is in part why starting from scratch is favoured.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Indy"]

I''m not sure there would be a need to worry about where to sit season ticket holders as surely the plan would be to build around the City stand and above it? I would be amazed if you could not use the current seating and stand as the lower tier and build up behind and above the current stand, thus minimal disruption.

 

The biggest problem would be road and foundations for the second tier, but I might be well off the mark.

 

I tend to agree though, we are now building a squad which on paper is the best we have had and if we intend to spend more on the team then great for the time being, as said I doubt we would fill anything over 32,000 on a regular bases, but it would be nice to complete Carrow Road with a second tier on the City stand and a small corner infill below the Hotel.

[/quote]

Bowkett has said the opposite - that the best solution would be to knock the whole stand down. He didn''t say if it wasn''t technically feasible to do what you are suggesting (which is what Fulham are doing). Supposedly the facilities in the City Stand are antiquated and that is in part why starting from scratch is favoured.

[/quote]

 

He certainly did seem to rule out keeping any of that stand. He spoke about the problems of relocating fans while the new stand was built. I got the impression a complete rebuild was the only option he was considering.

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

Of course one way of getting answers to all these questions that we keep asking rhetorically and (mainly) fruitlessly would be for the EDP to ask them of McNally and Bowkett. Why has the cost gone from £20m to now up to £30m? Does that include interest? Is it techically feasible to "do a Fulham" and build behind and on top of? What is the legal position with Carrow Road, which presumably would be built on or over? If we needed planning permission would we be likely to get it? What are the plans for relocating fans? Rebuilding the South Stand took about ten months. Why a mooted time frame of 18 months to two years for the City Stand? Etc etc etc.

[snake-eyes 13]

GenA47,

 

this has been my idea for awhile!  A tunnel going under the second tier with a walkway would seem the way to go!

 

Snake

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

Certainly these are the sort of questions that the people at EDP towers are far better positioned to ask, Purple.

I don''t think that the actual construction of modern stands does take all that long. Ultimately, they are just steel frames with lots of concrete hung on. What takes the time is the design, planning applications, demolitions etc. I suppose that''s what was attractive to the Boltons, Southamptons, Derbys and Hulls of this world when they moved to out of town sites. Though I understand that moving to a new place by the A47 bypass is not a go-er.

[ReadingCanary 0]

What''s the point of us having a bigger stadium if we are in the ChampionshipAll available funds should be put into the team and manager until we become established

[nutty nigel 7,527]

I agree Reading. But by the same token I doubt we will ever be "established". As soon as we divert funds from the player budget to anything else we will immediately be at a disadvantage to the clubs around us.

 

 

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

It''s a balancing act, Nigel. Always has been, always will be . Unless you are actually obliged to update a stand due to H+S regs, then it will be a gamble each time. I don''t claim to know, but imagine that the percentage of the PL clubs'' income generated by gate receipts is a lot less now than it was 10 yrs ago. TV money and all that. So, you have to ask whether the 400 extra seats will generate enough extra percentage income to a, pay for the stand, and b, make up for what could have been spent on the squad.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

OOps...meant 4000 seats of course.

[Rolf Harris 31]

Cause you could of created 4000 new fans who buy merchandise and ect. Getting 35k and attracting young people and families will be so beneficial to Norwich fc.

[ricardo 7,381]

Four pages and still no post from Tom Cavendish.Come on Tom, you know you want to.[;)]

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

You are overlooking the fact , Che, that there are thousands of people who buy merchandise etc who never go to the match, including youngsters. Why otherwise would you see kids traipsing around in Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea shirts, none of whom have ever set foot in, or even near, OT, Emirates or Stamford Br ?

[ricardo 7,381]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]. So, you have to ask whether the 4000 extra seats will generate enough extra percentage income to a, pay for the stand, and b, make up for what could have been spent on the squad.[/quote]

It won''t and that''s why there will be no stadium expansion in the foreseeable future.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

Tend to agree with you Ricardo.

[ReadingCanary 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I agree Reading. But by the same token I doubt we will ever be "established". As soon as we divert funds from the player budget to anything else we will immediately be at a disadvantage to the clubs around us.

 

 

[/quote]Very True.

[SwindonCanary 455]

McNally said it would cost £30 million to expand and at the moment it''s all going on the players budget. I''m all for that, but with the ''continual improvment'' mindset, I can never see us having £30 million spare.The thing that worry''s me is attracting new young supporters, if they want to go to a match it''s usually a parent or relation that takes them, unfortunately looking at the tickets for sale at the Villa or Chelsea match, it''s impossible to get two seats together and it''s the same for ever home match.    

[ricardo 7,381]

[quote user="swindoncanary"]McNally said it would cost £30 million to expand and at the moment it''s all going on the players budget. I''m all for that, but with the ''continual improvment'' mindset, I can never see us having £30 million spare.The thing that worry''s me is attracting new young supporters, if they want to go to a match it''s usually a parent or relation that takes them, unfortunately looking at the tickets for sale at the Villa or Chelsea match, it''s impossible to get two seats together and it''s the same for ever home match.     [/quote]

I don''t know what the "churn" rate is but there must be at least a thousand people every year who give up their season tickets for whatever reason (financial, loss of interest, death etc).Far better to have a waiting list than empty seats and a £30 million debt.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

Presumably our player budget is at the lower end of the PL scale, Swindon. But ticket prices do not always correlate to matters such as that. In the recent BBC survey, it appears that Man City have the lowest season tkt prices in the Prem. But, I''d imagine that their player budget is the highest. However that''s relatively easy to do if you''ve got a guy in Abu Dhabi bankrolling your every move. Clubs like Norwich, who live in the real financial world will have to be much tidier with their maths.

But I know what you mean. I''d like to take my grandkids to CR, but rarely can I get a seat even vaguely close by to mine, which has to be the bare minimum.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="ricardo"]Far better to have a waiting list than empty seats and a £30 million debt.[/quote]Wonderful quote Ricky. It should be pinned to the top of the page for eternity. [Y]

[Fergodsake 0]

I fully understand the point of those who attend every match, have been long time season ticket holders and want to see the highest standard that Norwich can reach in the immediate future realised, and I understand that would probably come from squad investment.My only concern comes from personal experience, I dont come from either a Norwich supporting family or one where football was all that big a deal. But my Dad occasionally took me to Carrow Rd as a youngster whilst we lived in Norwich, Im now a life long city fan who goes to any game his limited resources can stretch to. To be honest if casual tickets are too limited or too expensive, you will scare off families who dont want to stretch to season tickets and therefore deprive youngsters of seeing their home town football. It also ignores those that move to Norwich, who arent initially city fans, I have a mate at UEA who only started watching football in the last few years, he is ripe pickings if the club wants to increase the fan base but only if tickets are available and relatively inexpensive.Essentially I suppose my argument is that without stadium expansion, short term costs may be avoided, but in 25/30 years we may look back on it differently.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Fergodsake"]I fully understand the point of those who attend every match, have been long time season ticket holders and want to see the highest standard that Norwich can reach in the immediate future realised, and I understand that would probably come from squad investment.My only concern comes from personal experience, I dont come from either a Norwich supporting family or one where football was all that big a deal. But my Dad occasionally took me to Carrow Rd as a youngster whilst we lived in Norwich, Im now a life long city fan who goes to any game his limited resources can stretch to. To be honest if casual tickets are too limited or too expensive, you will scare off families who dont want to stretch to season tickets and therefore deprive youngsters of seeing their home town football. It also ignores those that move to Norwich, who arent initially city fans, I have a mate at UEA who only started watching football in the last few years, he is ripe pickings if the club wants to increase the fan base but only if tickets are available and relatively inexpensive.Essentially I suppose my argument is that without stadium expansion, short term costs may be avoided, but in 25/30 years we may look back on it differently.[/quote]Good points[Y]

[Warren Hill 0]

There are people on other threads that will tell you we were "on the brink" not so long back.

How close we were to oblivion is open to debate, what isn''t is our position then compared to now. To commit funds to ground expansion instead of investing in the squad is gambling with everything that the club has worked so hard to achieve in the last few years.

The expansion will come, but only when and if it can be undertaken without making a significant impact on the playing budget. We simply HAVE to invest what is available on remaining in the Promised Land, if the board took a gamble on building a ground rather than a squad and we dropped out of the Premier League because of it, well, the implications and repercussions could be devastating.

I''d rather we had a sold out stadium with people on the waiting list watching RvW on the pitch than have 27,000 in a 35,000 seater watching Jamie Cureton in League One.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,429]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="swindoncanary"]McNally said it would cost £30 million to expand and at the moment it''s all going on the players budget. I''m all for that, but with the ''continual improvment'' mindset, I can never see us having £30 million spare.

The thing that worry''s me is attracting new young supporters, if they want to go to a match it''s usually a parent or relation that takes them, unfortunately looking at the tickets for sale at the Villa or Chelsea match, it''s impossible to get two seats together and it''s the same for ever home match.     [/quote]


I don''t know what the "churn" rate is but there must be at least a thousand people every year who give up their season tickets for whatever reason (financial, loss of interest, death etc).

Far better to have a waiting list than empty seats and a £30 million debt.
[/quote]

 

I largely agree with this. Each year, the decision to spend £20m (I''m not sure it has ever been £30m? - I think the UEA were commissioned a few years back to look into the costs and came up with £20m) against staying in the prem , will always be tricky. And I have to ask the question how many of us know people that can consistently not get tickets? Don''t confuse this with how many cannot afford tickets, for that is a different argument, If you really want a ticket, you can generally get one. If you are on the waiting list, have joined as a member, and keep an eye open, you can get a ticket to most games.

 

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

[quote user="Graham Paddons Beard"]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="swindoncanary"]McNally said it would cost £30 million to expand and at the moment it''s all going on the players budget. I''m all for that, but with the ''continual improvment'' mindset, I can never see us having £30 million spare.The thing that worry''s me is attracting new young supporters, if they want to go to a match it''s usually a parent or relation that takes them, unfortunately looking at the tickets for sale at the Villa or Chelsea match, it''s impossible to get two seats together and it''s the same for ever home match.     [/quote]

I don''t know what the "churn" rate is but there must be at least a thousand people every year who give up their season tickets for whatever reason (financial, loss of interest, death etc).Far better to have a waiting list than empty seats and a £30 million debt.[/quote]

 

I largely agree with this. Each year, the decision to spend £20m (I''m not sure it has ever been £30m? - I think the UEA were commissioned a few years back to look into the costs and came up with £20m) against staying in the prem , will always be tricky. And I have to ask the question how many of us know people that can consistently not get tickets? Don''t confuse this with how many cannot afford tickets, for that is a different argument, If you really want a ticket, you can generally get one. If you are on the waiting list, have joined as a member, and keep an eye open, you can get a ticket to most games.

 

[/quote]

 

A cost of "up to £30m" is the figure that has been given by the club before and is the phrase used by McNally again in this latest Q&A.