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lake district canary

Has the penny dropped?

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That the windfall that allowed us to upgrade so well this season means very little in relation to our prospects  this season?    The reason being that  every club in the league got a similar boost of funds to us and has been able to upgrade too.   We should see better football this season across the premiership, us included of course, but what it means is that it is still going to be a heck of a battle to stay in the league. 

Its easy to get carried away when we see the kind of money that has been spent, but the two away games have shown that other clubs have improved too.  Tottenham look to have really upped their game from last season, much stronger, so that is why we struggled yesterday compared to last season.   Hull were no walk over either and although we can and we will start to do better away from home - as long as we have a good home record, picking up points away when we can, we will be alright. 

I have been impressed by our signings and the football will improve as they settle, but we can see the battle is on to stay in the premiership and it isn''t going to be easy.  Lots of people have said it on here since the match, but I''m not going to apologise for saying it again, we need to forget the idea that our tactics are negative - we may have an element of caution, particularly away - and yes the balance could be better - but the problem is always going to be more that there is another team on the pitch as well as ours!  

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Playing the way we do, we could have saved ourselves £13m. Signed Kamara, gave Jackson a new contract and with Becchio aswell. Whats point having these expensive strikers if they going to get no service or support. Why oh why didnt we go out and get a exciting creative number 10 i do not know.

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Sorry but our tactics/mindset/approach away from home ARE negative and anyone who thinks or claims otherwise cannot be watching our away games.

Spurs are undoubtedly a good side. I don''t expect us to go there and beat them as of right. We could quite easily play well and still lose at places like that. But the fact is that yesterday the way we approached the game meant we never even have ourselves a chance and made a defeat inevitable from minute 1. If you won''t take my word for it then perhaps you will take Ruddy''s instead.

Hughton will always grind out enough points at home to see us just about keeping our heads above water and in the pack battling relegation but under his management I cannot ever see us doing more than that. If you think that''s acceptable for us then fine but personally I think we as a club should now be striving for more.

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You only have to look at the stats away from home under Hughton to see how negative we are on our travels. ''Hull were no walkover'' well i think its fair to say we wont be given a chance of 3 points away as easy as playing against a newly promoted side with 10 men for 60 mins again this season. Relying on home form is a very dangerous game to play, and that very nearly sent us down last season despite what looks on paper a good league position. If things dont change I really think he will be gone by xmas.

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Negative tactics for me is parking the bus, 11 men behind the ball- Hughton does not do that - he expects his players to be able to play.  That is the issue - the players playing to what is required.

If you want to think of the most negative I have seen us since we got to the premiership I give you Paul Lambert away at Man City and away at Sunderland.  Negative and clueless. Away at Blackburn too - the list could go on - there were plenty of poor away games under Lambert  - as well as some good ones.   Those of you that have rose tinted glasses for a past era, or think things are much different than they were, have short memories.

 

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I agree with jim, from the first minute of the game we sat deep, it was like a training ground exercise where you play attack v defence, yes we know Spurs had a better team out and was always going to be hard game, but to have no shots on target is a disgrace, i had always backed hughton, but patients has ran out now!!

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[quote user="lake district canary"]Negative tactics for me is parking the bus, 11 men behind the ball- Hughton does not do that - he expects his players to be able to play.  That is the issue - the players playing to what is required.

If you want to think of the most negative I have seen us since we got to the premiership I give you Paul Lambert away at Man City and away at Sunderland.  Negative and clueless. Away at Blackburn too - the list could go on - there were plenty of poor away games under Lambert  - as well as some good ones.   Those of you that have rose tinted glasses for a past era, or think things are much different than they were, have short memories.

  [/quote]

Sorry did you even watch the match yesterday?

The game kicked off and we immediately dropped back. 9 players in our own third of the pitch for most of the game and at times 11. Most of them marking space rather than actually picking up their players. The odd occasion we did attack we only had Elmander and Wolfswinkelfirward with Redmond occasionally managing to catch them up.. Not only did we try and park the bus but we parked it pretty damn badly because we put none of their midfielders under any pressure at any time when they had the ball. They are good players but anyone can look good if afforded the time and space we have them yesterday..

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The sad reality is we were beaten before 3pm with our mindset, as I and others have said, its not about the defeat, its the manner of it and the acceptence of it that bothers me. 2-0 down and I would expectc to see our new center forward given a chance to get us back in the game, what did we get? Howson and Tettey! Says it all for me.

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Sorry did you even watch the match yesterday?

The game kicked off and we immediately dropped back. 9 players in our own third of the pitch for most of the game and at times 11. Most of them marking space rather than actually picking up their players. The odd occasion we did attack we only had Elmander and Wolfswinkelfirward with Redmond occasionally managing to catch them up.. Not only did we try and park the bus but we parked it pretty damn badly because we put none of their midfielders under any pressure at any time when they had the ball. They are good players but anyone can look good if afforded the time and space we have them yesterday..

Yep

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Exactly this JF. The more significant point, however, is this is how we approach games against teams where we might get points! Perhaps, we should go all out to win the Stoke match given that the efficacy of our 2013 away tactics, in my view, are open to question?

We might still lose but we - and indeed the players - might feel less deflated on the way home.

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Bah.. for a crying out loud... we didnt drop our squad behind the ball.. We didnt get more than 3 passes together before losign the ball and were beaten in 1vs1s...

We couldn''t do anything else than be under the ball. Closing up play was horrible so retaining the ball was also hard.

Watch the game for a god sake. There are always two teams and at the end there are very few teams that dont drop 9 men under the ball while defending long periods.

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We were beaten before 3pm because our manager has no balls. Sucks off the other team as much as he can.

Tactically, along with his counterparts are just terrible at best.

Mr Di Matteo come on down!!!! Please

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[quote user="Lavanche"]Bah.. for a crying out loud... we didnt drop our squad behind the ball.. We didnt get more than 3 passes together before losign the ball and were beaten in 1vs1s...

We couldn''t do anything else than be under the ball. Closing up play was horrible so retaining the ball was also hard.

Watch the game for a god sake. There are always two teams and at the end there are very few teams that dont drop 9 men under the ball while defending long periods.[/quote]

I watched the game. I know what I saw. I have no desire to watch it again.

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[quote user="lake district canary"]Negative tactics for me is parking the bus, [/quote]And negative tactics for me is going out onto the park with absolutely no intention of trying to win the game.  And it becomes even more negative when it''s obvious that you''re going to lose the game (i.e. when you go one or two goals down) and little or nothing is done to change things.

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To start with I must say that to sack the manager just four games into the season would cause more problems than it would solve. Hughton has been backed by the board with cash and on paper everybody must agree that the signings over the summer have been top drawer....Fer,RVW,Redmond,Almander,Hooper and Ollson. The approach to games also the setting up of the team however is painful to watch and at times difficult to understand and that fault lays firmly at the feet of the manager and his coaches.As somebody has already said at 2-0 down there was not even the slightest attempt to chase the game and with Hooper on the bench what did we get....Howson and Tettey ! What was that all about ? From the first minute to the last we were chasing shadows and second best at everything.Snodgrass looks frustrated and in my book away from home he is a red card waiting to happen.This is the player who quite rightly last year nearly won POTS so what has happened to him ? Is it only me who thinks Ruddy is not quite the same dominant keeper we know he can be.Hughton has everybody at his disposal except for the unlucky Bennett so what is it about us away from Carrow Road that now has many fans starting to look at the financial aspect of an away day out and thinking their money could be better spent than watching our beloved club. It will not be long if this continues before fans start falling out with each other as anger and frustration increases and it is something we could well do without.We have been there and done that under previous regimes.

Now then LDC you claim that we are up against clubs who also like us have gained significantly with additional finance but it counts for didderly squat whether you have spent £5 million or £100 million if your approach to games and mindset away from home is wrong.You will lose games more often than not and the subsequent reliance on home form will sooner or later end up biting you on the backside.

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Indeed great post.3-4 away wins a season with our current home form would see us safely in mid-tableWithout decent away form we are in for another nervy season finale

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]

To start with I must say that to sack the manager just four games into the season would cause more problems than it would solve. Hughton has been backed by the board with cash and on paper everybody must agree that the signings over the summer have been top drawer....Fer,RVW,Redmond,Almander,Hooper and Ollson. The approach to games also the setting up of the team however is painful to watch and at times difficult to understand and that fault lays firmly at the feet of the manager and his coaches.As somebody has already said at 2-0 down there was not even the slightest attempt to chase the game and with Hooper on the bench what did we get....Howson and Tettey ! What was that all about ? From the first minute to the last we were chasing shadows and second best at everything.Snodgrass looks frustrated and in my book away from home he is a red card waiting to happen.This is the player who quite rightly last year nearly won POTS so what has happened to him ? Is it only me who thinks Ruddy is not quite the same dominant keeper we know he can be.Hughton has everybody at his disposal except for the unlucky Bennett so what is it about us away from Carrow Road that now has many fans starting to look at the financial aspect of an away day out and thinking their money could be better spent than watching our beloved club. It will not be long if this continues before fans start falling out with each other as anger and frustration increases and it is something we could well do without.We have been there and done that under previous regimes.

Now then LDC you claim that we are up against clubs who also like us have gained significantly with additional finance but it counts for didderly squat whether you have spent £5 million or £100 million if your approach to games and mindset away from home is wrong.You will lose games more often than not and the subsequent reliance on home form will sooner or later end up biting you on the backside.

[/quote]

 

Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!

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Reading,A couple of points.1. On the evidence of two games, I cant see where those 3-4 away wins are going to come from.2. Inevitably, as Til has pointed out, this mindset will spill over into our home form too. It is clear that you can stop us from playing by placing pressure on the CM, and in particular Fer.Other teams will work this out too.

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[quote user="Louis Cyphre"]Reading,A couple of points.1. On the evidence of two games, I cant see where those 3-4 away wins are going to come from.2. Inevitably, as Til has pointed out, this mindset will spill over into our home form too. It is clear that you can stop us from playing by placing pressure on the CM, and in particular Fer.Other teams will work this out too.[/quote]That''s what i meant sorry.I was just saying that 3-4 away wins would make use safe. Playing the way we play now = another nervy season

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Last season our away record was - Played 19, Won 2, Drawn 7, Lost 10, GF 16, GA 38, Points 16The 3rd worst record of all Clubs last season and this season appears to be heading exactly the same way.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]

To start with I must say that to sack the manager just four games into the season would cause more problems than it would solve. Hughton has been backed by the board with cash and on paper everybody must agree that the signings over the summer have been top drawer....Fer,RVW,Redmond,Almander,Hooper and Ollson. The approach to games also the setting up of the team however is painful to watch and at times difficult to understand and that fault lays firmly at the feet of the manager and his coaches.As somebody has already said at 2-0 down there was not even the slightest attempt to chase the game and with Hooper on the bench what did we get....Howson and Tettey ! What was that all about ? From the first minute to the last we were chasing shadows and second best at everything.Snodgrass looks frustrated and in my book away from home he is a red card waiting to happen.This is the player who quite rightly last year nearly won POTS so what has happened to him ? Is it only me who thinks Ruddy is not quite the same dominant keeper we know he can be.Hughton has everybody at his disposal except for the unlucky Bennett so what is it about us away from Carrow Road that now has many fans starting to look at the financial aspect of an away day out and thinking their money could be better spent than watching our beloved club. It will not be long if this continues before fans start falling out with each other as anger and frustration increases and it is something we could well do without.We have been there and done that under previous regimes.

Now then LDC you claim that we are up against clubs who also like us have gained significantly with additional finance but it counts for didderly squat whether you have spent £5 million or £100 million if your approach to games and mindset away from home is wrong.You will lose games more often than not and the subsequent reliance on home form will sooner or later end up biting you on the backside.

[/quote]

Don''t think we normally agree Til but cant find fault with this.

I really want CH to succeed but the quality of our squad really leaves him nowhere to hide. Previous managers had to make the best of poor squads. I find myself pleased I will be in Dorset at a wedding next weekend and really wondering if I should apply for tickets for Arsenal as planned.

Should we get an offensive coach ?

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Completely agree with Tilly and Jim Smith on this one except on Tilly''s point about John Ruddy. I think it was just one of those days for him and he was probably affected by the feeble showing in front of him, Bassong excepted.I didn''t go yesterday as I was one of the '' lucky '' ones who suffered at Hull. I''m not prepared to shell out the best part of £100 again until the manager adopts a more positive attitude on the road. I watched the whole match on a stream and was thankful that I hadn''t beaten myself up even more by actually being at White Hart Lane. Getting away with only a 2-0 reverse was a miracle in itself but I''d much rather see us at least make a half-hearted attempt to win a game even if it means a heavier defeat.It was interesting listening to Ruddy''s comments on Radio Norfolk after the match. Virtually admitting that he wasn''t happy with the way we approached the match is pretty telling isn''t it ? Chris Hughton of course came out with the usual manager''s stuff about up against a quality side, etc, etc, etc but thankfully he was cut short as they ran out of time.I don''t think we missed much.....

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]As somebody has already said at 2-0 down there was not even the slightest attempt to chase the game and with Hooper on the bench what did we get....Howson and Tettey ! What was that all about ? From the first minute to the last we were chasing shadows and second best at everything.

Now then LDC you claim that we are up against clubs who also like us have gained significantly with additional finance but it counts for didderly squat whether you have spent £5 million or £100 million if your approach to games and mindset away from home is wrong.You will lose games more often than not and the subsequent reliance on home form will sooner or later end up biting you on the backside.

[/quote]

A couple of things.   We were losing the game 2-0 and were losing the game in midfield, so to bring on Howson and Tettey was presumably an attempt to address that.   Chasing a game is fine if you have the ball, but if you don''t, you are just opening yourself up to further punishment.  

We still don''t  have the right balance between attack and defence away from home, but the obsession with tactics being "negative" is not helpful imo.  Its not just me saying it, but it  is up to the players to step up and hold the ball better, pass it better and just get more control over the ball.   If they can do that, Hughton''s tactics will not appear negative in the least, as we will be able to put more pressure on opposing teams as a result.  We know they can do it, but its easier said than done and it could just be that with a bit more confidence they will start to do that more.

Patience is difficult when your team appears to be struggling,  but that is what we are going to need, but to lose 2-0 - however we played - is not a disgrace, given how Tottenham, have progressed since last season.   We have to keep the faith, try not to get bogged down with the tactics, because that is only part of the story.  The players have to take some of the responsibility too.  And we still have had a reasonable start to the season.

Onwards and upwards. 

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[quote user="......and Smith must score."]Completely agree with Tilly and Jim Smith on this one except on Tilly''s point about John Ruddy. I think it was just one of those days for him and he was probably affected by the feeble showing in front of him, Bassong excepted.I didn''t go yesterday as I was one of the '' lucky '' ones who suffered at Hull. I''m not prepared to shell out the best part of £100 again until the manager adopts a more positive attitude on the road. I watched the whole match on a stream and was thankful that I hadn''t beaten myself up even more by actually being at White Hart Lane. Getting away with only a 2-0 reverse was a miracle in itself but I''d much rather see us at least make a half-hearted attempt to win a game even if it means a heavier defeat.It was interesting listening to Ruddy''s comments on Radio Norfolk after the match. Virtually admitting that he wasn''t happy with the way we approached the match is pretty telling isn''t it ? Chris Hughton of course came out with the usual manager''s stuff about up against a quality side, etc, etc, etc but thankfully he was cut short as they ran out of time.I don''t think we missed much..... [/quote]

That was my first away game this season and like you I have no plans to blow £100 again in the near future. Interested to read your comments about Ruddy''s interview after the game, what did he actually say?

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[quote user="......and Smith must score."]It was interesting listening to Ruddy''s comments on Radio Norfolk after the match. Virtually admitting that he wasn''t happy with the way we approached the match is pretty telling isn''t it ? Chris Hughton of course came out with the usual manager''s stuff about up against a quality side, etc, etc, etc but thankfully he was cut short as they ran out of time.I don''t think we missed much..... [/quote]

 

Yes Ruddy was quite critical of the players sitting to deep. What he didn''t make clear was whether that was because of the players or the manager. I took it as a bit of a criticism of the players but I guess it could be either or both. Make of it what you will I think we are stuck with this system home and away so it will be a long season.

 

 

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Nigel,I fear that you are right about it being a long season - that''s the most pessimistic I''ve hear you be in ages. However, on the bright side, Sunderland and WBA have got off to worse starts and along with the three promoted sides and say Fulham/West Ham, there are lots of other sides who are going to find points hard to come by too.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="......and Smith must score."]It was interesting listening to Ruddy''s comments on Radio Norfolk after the match. Virtually admitting that he wasn''t happy with the way we approached the match is pretty telling isn''t it ? Chris Hughton of course came out with the usual manager''s stuff about up against a quality side, etc, etc, etc but thankfully he was cut short as they ran out of time.I don''t think we missed much..... [/quote]

 

Yes Ruddy was quite critical of the players sitting to deep. What he didn''t make clear was whether that was because of the players or the manager. I took it as a bit of a criticism of the players but I guess it could be either or both. Make of it what you will I think we are stuck with this system home and away so it will be a long season.

[/quote]Fair point Nutty but it''d be a brave player who''d publicly criticise his manager. I just got the feeling that it was aimed at him.Can''t disagree it looks like it''s going to be a long old season. Do you think they''ll run out of space on the message board server ? [:D]

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