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peateabee

Losing the 'right' way

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There is always the debate about whether there is a ''right'' or ''better'' way of winning a football match - some people think that it''s just about winning and it doesn''t matter how you do it, others think you should try and do it with a certain style and there is more honour in doing it that way. I am coming to the conclusion that while there may be arguments made for both sides in that particular debate there is certainly a ''right'' or way to lose. Thoughts?

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The right way to lose is to go down fighting. Its more embarrassing to me to lose 2-0 but to have shown no fight, than to lose 8-0 but have given it all you have. I couldnt give a fig about keeping the score down, I want us to show some b*ll*cks

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[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]The right way to lose is to go down fighting. Its more embarrassing to me to lose 2-0 but to have shown no fight, than to lose 8-0 but have given it all you have. I couldnt give a fig about keeping the score down, I want us to show some b*ll*cks[/quote]#Well this is the worst post I have ever read on this forumYou would rather watch us lose 8-0 than 2-0Mind Blown

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Sorry but if you would actual prefer to watch us concede more goals then..... well I don''t really have any words.That''s just an utterly ludicrous statement.

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"]Sorry but if you would actual prefer to watch us concede more goals then..... well I don''t really have any words.That''s just an utterly ludicrous statement.

[/quote]

Because its not that simple. Conceding lots of goals is a risk, which sometimes will happen, but sometimes might result in us getting a win. I would rather RISK a walloping if it meant we might have a chance of some points. Obviously I was not saying I would prefer to watch us get a guaranteed hiding. Im saying we need to be willing to risk a walloping in order to find the goals that might help us pick up some points. Thats why we scored yet also conceded so many under Lambert. We were bold, and sometimes it meant we conceded more goals as a consequence. But sometimes it meant we actually won. Under Hughton there is no risk taking. To read my post and and come to the conclusion I was saying I would like to watch us get whooped every week is just completely missing my point. Im talking about risk taking. Fortune favours the bold does it not?

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Sky Sports said yesterday that the reason we got thumped in midfield was because we set up in a  4 4 2 or 4 4 1 1. They stated that Hughton went for an attacking formation where we should have set up more defensively to combat Spurs'' 5 in midfieldHad we done that we could have controlled more of the ball and pushed forward (using Redmond in particular)Just food for though.

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If we accepted losing every away game 2-0 - thus acquiring 0 points away - are you saying this would be better than giving it a go and getting some heavy defeats, but also getting the occasional win from our away complement? Of course you wouldnt, because points is what matters. All I am saying is I am willing to watch us get whooped a few times if the pay off is we might get a few away wins. Goal difference only matters if you finish level on points with someone else. Aside from that its rather meaningless. Points are far more important. We have a better chance of points by taking some risks than we do through keeping the score down and hoping the ball miraculously goes in on its own

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i remember losing 6-1 at home to man city under lambert and we gave them a bloody good game. would rather see us giving it ago home or away. like under lambert arsenal 3-3 away, liverpool 1-1 away, spurs 2-1 win away, chelsea away we lost 3-1 but were wel in the game until ruddy got sent off. gave united a good game at old trafford which if pilks wud of sckred wuda been a different game. i hate to say it, the good old days.

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"]Sky Sports said yesterday that the reason we got thumped in midfield was because we set up in a  4 4 2 or 4 4 1 1. They stated that Hughton went for an attacking formation where we should have set up more defensively to combat Spurs'' 5 in midfieldHad we done that we could have controlled more of the ball and pushed forward (using Redmond in particular)Just food for though.[/quote]No, that can''t be right. Everyone know''s CH would never allow it.

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[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]If we accepted losing every away game 2-0 - thus acquiring 0 points away - are you saying this would be better than giving it a go and getting some heavy defeats, but also getting the occasional win from our away complement? Of course you wouldnt, because points is what matters. All I am saying is I am willing to watch us get whooped a few times if the pay off is we might get a few away wins. Goal difference only matters if you finish level on points with someone else. Aside from that its rather meaningless. Points are far more important. We have a better chance of points by taking some risks than we do through keeping the score down and hoping the ball miraculously goes in on its own[/quote]Well if we got relegated by goal difference because we kept "giving it a go" i''d be gutted and angry

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Surely the answer to this question rather depends on the circumstances.

For example, if on the final day of the season you are 3rd from bottom, two points behind 4th from bottom. In other words, only a win will do, so you may as well go for it . Or, ironically, the situation Spurs found themselves on the final day of last season ? Then, you may as well go out and get stuffed 6-0 as draw 1-1 or 0-0 . So gubg ho would be the order of the day.

I quite see why CH would want to keep things tight at this stage of the season, particularly at WHL. But, what sticks in the throat is the evident belief that we had no chance at all. That and the utter failure at the KC to try and grind out 3 pts against a newly promoted side down to 10 men.

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You missed his point RC. If getting points on the road causes a bad goals diff, so what!?!?. Your approach gets us no points but maybe a less negatory diff. We''d be relegated by lack of points, not goals.

How often does goal diff affect our relegation or promotion? It''s a red herring for this debate. We change divisions based on points first. Very seldom does goal diff matter so don''t waste resources worrying about a fly when there''s also an elephant in the room.

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[quote user="Houston Canary"]You missed his point RC. If getting points on the road causes a bad goals diff, so what!?!?. Your approach gets us no points but maybe a less negatory diff. We''d be relegated by lack of points, not goals.

How often does goal diff affect our relegation or promotion? It''s a red herring for this debate. We change divisions based on points first. Very seldom does goal diff matter so don''t waste resources worrying about a fly when there''s also an elephant in the room.[/quote]That''s what they said in 2012 before Aguero slotted in that 95th minute winnerI''m not happy with the performances away from home, but I would never want my team to concede more goals.

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Erm...more factually incorrect assertions Houston. There have been a number of examples of goal difference winning or Losing. 2 yrs ago, didn''t Citeh win the title as they''d got a better GD than Manyoo ?

Closer to home, didn''t we get into the play offs in 2003 as a result of a better GD than Burnley ?

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That proves my point if you have to go back so long to find when goal diff mattered. Not enough to justify setting up to not lose each road game.

And Citeh don''t matter. I asked about City.

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I''m sorry but my team consistently getting stuffed by 4 or more, but at least they tried kind of thing would make us a laughing stock and bring the team moral down....or worse than it is now. I don''t have answers but getting stuffed with a 10/10 for effort is not it.

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--- ReadingCanary: Well this is the worst post I have ever read on this forumYou would rather watch us lose 8-0 than 2-0

I think the point is, he would rather we tried to get something out of the game and risk losing by more goals, than deciding the game is over at 49 minutes and 2-0 down, like we did yesterday.

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]--- ReadingCanary: Well this is the worst post I have ever read on this forumYou would rather watch us lose 8-0 than 2-0

I think the point is, he would rather we tried to get something out of the game and risk losing by more goals, than deciding the game is over at 49 minutes and 2-0 down, like we did yesterday.[/quote]

I think even the most optimistic City fan, wearing yellow and green bi-focals and naming his cat Wessi would have known that it was all over after 49 minutes. It didn''t take a football genius to see very quickly that the writing was on the wall and barring the most outrageous luck we weren''t going to get anything from the game.Hughton could have brought all 3 subs on without taking anyone off and we still wouldn''t have got anything. It''s painful I know, but sometimes you just have to suck it up. Pretending that anything we could have done would have changed the result is as pointless as nailing jelly to the ceiling.

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"][quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]If we accepted losing every away game 2-0 - thus acquiring 0 points away - are you saying this would be better than giving it a go and getting some heavy defeats, but also getting the occasional win from our away complement? Of course you wouldnt, because points is what matters. All I am saying is I am willing to watch us get whooped a few times if the pay off is we might get a few away wins. Goal difference only matters if you finish level on points with someone else. Aside from that its rather meaningless. Points are far more important. We have a better chance of points by taking some risks than we do through keeping the score down and hoping the ball miraculously goes in on its own[/quote]Well if we got relegated by goal difference because we kept "giving it a go" i''d be gutted and angry[/quote]

 

Just asking a question (because I dont know the answer) but how many teams since the Premiership began have been relegated on goal difference? Im thinking its a lot less than those who have been relegated because of fewer points. Goal difference only matters if you finish level with another team. We cant obsess about our tie-breaker if the result is we get fewer points

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Erm...more factually incorrect assertions Houston. There have been a number of examples of goal difference winning or Losing. 2 yrs ago, didn''t Citeh win the title as they''d got a better GD than Manyoo ?

Closer to home, didn''t we get into the play offs in 2003 as a result of a better GD than Burnley ?[/quote]

It was Burnley, but you''re right. McVeigh grabbed a consolation vs Bradford when we lost 4-1 and it proved massively important at the end!

I think the 8-0 2-0 thing is daft, i''d never get over us losing 8-0 against anybody, but in some ways (vary rarely), i''d rather we lost 4-1 than 2-0 if I went to the game. It shows we at least turned up. For example, i felt a lot more proud of our 3-1 reverse vs Arsenal last season than i did Saturday despite them being the same result.

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[quote user="Jimmy Smith"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Erm...more factually incorrect assertions Houston. There have been a number of examples of goal difference winning or Losing. 2 yrs ago, didn''t Citeh win the title as they''d got a better GD than Manyoo ?

Closer to home, didn''t we get into the play offs in 2003 as a result of a better GD than Burnley ?[/quote]

It was Burnley, but you''re right. McVeigh grabbed a consolation vs Bradford when we lost 4-1 and it proved massively important at the end!

I think the 8-0 2-0 thing is daft, i''d never get over us losing 8-0 against anybody, but in some ways (vary rarely), i''d rather we lost 4-1 than 2-0 if I went to the game. It shows we at least turned up. For example, i felt a lot more proud of our 3-1 reverse vs Arsenal last season than i did Saturday despite them being the same result.[/quote]

Exactly, because we were in the game the entire time. Thats all anyone wants, for the team to be fighting for a result, not accepting a defeat as long as the margins are respectable. You''re right, the 8-0 thing is daft, I just wanted to use an extreme example of a heavy defeat. I would accept goal conceded as a result of trying to score (leaving the back door open etc)

Id have been happier if we''d have eventually lost that Tottenham game 4-1 for example by abandoning a conservative approach desinged to keep the score down (which could never have gotten us back on terms) by attacking and at least trying to get back on terms, but eventually it backfiring and losiong more heavily.

When you are a goal down the game is lost if you do not try to attack. Its never going to get better on its own. 1-0 or 4-0 doesnt matter, its still 0 points. Id rather we tried to equalize and risk a heavy defeat than accept a respectable defeat. To me the score doesnt matter, only the number of points. Against spurs it looked like we''d accepted no points - and that to me is what is unacceptable

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--- ricardo: I think even the most optimistic City fan, wearing yellow and green bi-focals and naming his cat Wessi would have known that it was all over after 49 minutes. It didn''t take a football genius to see very quickly that the writing was on the wall and barring the most outrageous luck we weren''t going to get anything from the game.

All over at 2-0 with 40 minutes to play. Just wow, what a pathetic defeatist attitude. One that now seems to pervade the club. Yes, of course we are likely to lose when 2-0 down at white hart lane, but that doesn''t mean we should just throw in the towel. Get a goal back and we are right back in the game again. It is amazing how quickly a game can turn.

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"][quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]The right way to lose is to go down fighting. Its more embarrassing to me to lose 2-0 but to have shown no fight, than to lose 8-0 but have given it all you have. I couldnt give a fig about keeping the score down, I want us to show some b*ll*cks[/quote]#Well this is the worst post I have ever read on this forumYou would rather watch us lose 8-0 than 2-0Mind Blown[/quote]or possibly in reality the worst misquoteas indeliberately missing out the qualifying comment"but to have shown no fight"

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Just a little addition to this discussion,

 

Man City did have a better goal difference. They conceded 4 less than Utd but also scored 4 more!

 

In the result of Goal difference being level, what is the deciding factor?

 

Goals scored followed by head to head results.

 

Just saying.

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