Jim Smith 2,317 Posted September 15, 2013 “It doesn’t matter about the amount of quality they’ve got – if you sit back against any team, they are going to try to find a way through,” “I just think with the players we’ve got and the signings we’ve made, we could just have been more aggressive in our play and really ask questions of other teams, as opposed to them asking questions about us.Oh no sorry thats not my view its the view of some other bloke called John who lives in Norwich and plays in goal for some team or other. Still all tjose fans who are saying exactly the same thing are all pantwetters and moaners. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReadingCanary 0 Posted September 15, 2013 I knew the players heroically overthrew Hughton during the West Brom and Man City games.Ignored his tactics and were valiantly led by Grant Holt to ensure 2 wins.These selected quotes prove it.I just knew it ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,317 Posted September 15, 2013 [quote user="ReadingCanary"]I knew the players heroically overthrew Hughton during the West Brom and Man City games.Ignored his tactics and were valiantly led by Grant Holt to ensure 2 wins.These selected quotes prove it.I just knew it ![/quote]I guess Ruddys problem is he probably takes our premiership status for granted. Doesn''t understand our "place" in the grand scheme of things. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,528 Posted September 15, 2013 [quote user="Jim Smith"]“It doesn’t matter about the amount of quality they’ve got – if you sit back against any team, they are going to try to find a way through,” “I just think with the players we’ve got and the signings we’ve made, we could just have been more aggressive in our play and really ask questions of other teams, as opposed to them asking questions about us.Oh no sorry thats not my view its the view of some other bloke called John who lives in Norwich and plays in goal for some team or other. Still all tjose fans who are saying exactly the same thing are all pantwetters and moaners.[/quote] I haven''t seen a quote anywhere saying fans saying the same thing are pantwetters and moaners. I think you just made that up to start yet another thread for the same argument. But I listened to that interview and didn''t think the bloke called John said they were sent out to do that. However they could have been. What point are you trying to make Jim? Is it another one about preferring to see open attacking football? Because I''d like that too. Not going to get it though... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,317 Posted September 15, 2013 Nutty the point I''m trying to make is that some on here maintain our tactics away from home are not negative or that those who felt we sat back yesterday know nothing about football.The above are direct quotes from one of our most senior players who is clearly (and in my view certainly as clearly as you will ever get from an under contract senior player in public) indicating that he shares the views being expressed by many fans. People can tell me I''m talking sh*t and moaning as much as they like, doesn''t bother me but when Ruddy feels the need to make comments like this (and his tweets after Cardiff beat Man City contained similar hints) then I think people should take notice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,528 Posted September 15, 2013 But nobody has reacted in the way you said. I haven''t seen one person called a pantwetter. Surely there''s already enough threads full of stupidity..... The point re Ruddy''s is a good one and was discussed on another thread so why use it to start yet another bun fight[|-)] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0 Posted September 15, 2013 He''s not the first to say things like that, there was Moro last season, and Holt said pretty much the same in the recent interview. E Bennett came out with the ''we can draw our way to safety'' (or something like it) comment as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lavanche 0 Posted September 15, 2013 Main difference between what Ruddy said and what people here said is that Hughton told every player to sit behind the ball and what we saw yesterday was our game plan from the start.Those who say that, really dont know anything about football ^^ as it was quite clear that Tottenham forced us to do that by being far superior compared to us.I said already in match thread that Hughton got his tactics wrong that day, but I didnt see the intent to only sit back and take beating. Our players just couldnt do what was asked from them and our middlefield was forced for poor passes and only way to build up an attack was a long ball wich made us look even worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,528 Posted September 15, 2013 So is the point being made that the players aren''t behind the manager? Because we had all this before from Foggy and it turned out to be bollox. For what it''s worth when I was at Colney recently I was told that the atmosphere throughout the club was tremendous. That doesn''t fit with what''s being suggested if it is being suggested? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,528 Posted September 15, 2013 And I don''t know if any of you heard the interview but Ruddy responded to leading questions. I suppose it''s possible he slipped the interviewer a slip of paper with those questions on.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 5,557 Posted September 15, 2013 [quote user="nutty nigel"]But nobody has reacted in the way you said. I haven''t seen one person called a pantwetter. Surely there''s already enough threads full of stupidity..... The point re Ruddy''s is a good one and was discussed on another thread so why use it to start yet another bun fight[|-)] [/quote] In effect some have. In particular one argument being strongly put forward is that no matter how we might have played, no matter which players we might have used, no matter what formation we might have employed, no matter what substitutions we might have made, not only would the result have been the same but the almost total domination enjoyed by Spurs would have been unchanged. Those quotes - which are unusually trenchant and have to be seen as a criticism of Hughton as well as of the players - suggest Ruddy thinks we at least could have made Spurs work a bit harder for the win. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lake district canary 4,531 Posted September 15, 2013 [quote user="Jim Smith"]Nutty the point I''m trying to make is that some on here maintain our tactics away from home are not negative or that those who felt we sat back yesterday know nothing about football. [/quote]So I''m one of those that knows nothing about football, because I don''t think the manager wants us to play negatively. In fact I know he doesn''t. He wants us to play as a unit that can play its way out of trouble, have good possession in a game and as a result of that good possession, cause more problems to the opposition. So he doesn''t send them out to be negative - he sends them out to play football. Things will pick up and the team will improve and get more confidence away from home. They have to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,528 Posted September 15, 2013 [quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]But nobody has reacted in the way you said. I haven''t seen one person called a pantwetter. Surely there''s already enough threads full of stupidity..... The point re Ruddy''s is a good one and was discussed on another thread so why use it to start yet another bun fight[|-)] [/quote] In effect some have. In particular one argument being strongly put forward is that no matter how we might have played, no matter which players we might have used, no matter what formation we might have employed, no matter what substitutions we might have made, not only would the result have been the same but the almost total domination enjoyed by Spurs would have been unchanged. Those quotes - which are unusually trenchant and have to be seen as a criticism of Hughton as well as of the players - suggest Ruddy thinks we at least could have made Spurs work a bit harder for the win.[/quote] Well there''s a few who have that view Purple but not many. And interestingly I haven''t seen the pantwetter jibe at all. Ruddy''s remarks probably deserved their own thread too. But my point was they were being used to promote another argument with posters rather than as a basis for discussion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chicken 0 Posted September 15, 2013 I don''t think there is any doubt that we could have worked Spurs harder.And IMHO it had nothing to do with the formation.If your players fail to pass a ball five yards under a bit of pressure for a period for longer than a couple of minutes the opposition will never drop off you and afford you space and time.Hold onto that ball for a bit and there is no way they can keep hounding you quite so much. Lose it cheaply and they''ll have no worry closing you down, putting you under pressure.In short, the main fault yesterday falls at the feet of the midfield. They simply were not at the races.Without retention the defence will never get a chance to move up the pitch safely, and will be forced to sit deeper. At the same time without keeping and moving the ball you create little for the forwards to feed off.Fer had a surprisingly off day. Johnson and Snodders below par and Redmond is not a player you want out there if we a fighting to get hold of and keep the ball.Hughton''s main fault yesterday was not throwing bottles at them and sulking more. Maybe he could have made different changes or made them slightly sooner. But I doubt anything other than changing the midfield four would really have made a great difference.And it''s a hard ask for a player or two to come on and turn a game on it''s head.Last of all it is worth noting that Spurs spent over £100million on players this summer alone. Even if you include last summer and January transfer window we didn''t spend that much. Add to that they spent well in both of those windows too I think you''ll see that the reality is something like us £30-35million and them being closer to £150million.Spurs want to be top four, they are looking like good shouts. I think a fair few have got carried away with our recent success against them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0 Posted September 15, 2013 --- nutty nigel: Because we had all this before from Foggy and it turned out to be bollox. For what it''s worth when I was at Colney recently I was told that the atmosphere throughout the club was tremendous. That doesn''t fit with what''s being suggested if it is being suggested?Who said what now? I don''t think anyone is saying their is trouble at the club. I imagine there are players who disagree with some of the managers tactics, as their are many fans who agree or disagree with the tactics, but they are professionals and play their allotted role regardless.Clearly Chris Hughton thinks uber-defensive play is the best way to gain results away from home. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,317 Posted September 15, 2013 [quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Jim Smith"]Nutty the point I''m trying to make is that some on here maintain our tactics away from home are not negative or that those who felt we sat back yesterday know nothing about football. [/quote]So I''m one of those that knows nothing about football, because I don''t think the manager wants us to play negatively. In fact I know he doesn''t. He wants us to play as a unit that can play its way out of trouble, have good possession in a game and as a result of that good possession, cause more problems to the opposition. So he doesn''t send them out to be negative - he sends them out to play football. Things will pick up and the team will improve and get more confidence away from home. They have to.[/quote]But why do they have to? They haven''t for a season and a bit other than the odd freak game. If Hughton us not sending us out to play how we play then the alternative us that the players themselves have some kind of complete psychological block when playing away that causes our central midfield to drop deep and not venture forward and our full backs to remain rooted in their own half. I just don''t buy it. The dropping off wax immediate on Saturday. I''m not saying Hughton tells them to "be negative" but I do think his tactics/instructions for away games are along the lines of maintain shape at all times, don''t push forward or take risks early in the game and lets try and weather the inevitable pressure from the home team and based on his interviews I bet that in the lead up to matches there is a lot more focus on nullifying the opposition threat than on how we can potentially hurt them.What would be really interesting would be some sort of insight from the likes of Howson, Martin and Garido as to whether the approach/tactics were any different for the last two games of last season or whether their new found willingness to get forward was purely a result of the pressure being off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,528 Posted September 15, 2013 I think he plays the same way home and away but the momentum of the sides at home press us back further. It''s getting boring saying the same thing all the time. What do you see in the way he sets up away from home that''s different foggy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0 Posted September 15, 2013 --- nutty nigel: What do you see in the way he sets up away from home that''s different foggy?Full backs rarely crossing the half-way line for starters, central midfield exactly the same. But as you say, we are going in circles. Roll on the next games, Home to Villa and Away at Stoke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,528 Posted September 15, 2013 Exactly foggy. He sets us up the same way. I don''t see it changing either. But it''s entirely possible that we will improve as the season progresses. 4 games in and in my book the positives outweigh the negatives. We scored the only 2 goals Everton have conceded. We are the only side to have beaten Southampton. Hull was the big negative and the main reason yesterday has become such a big deal. There you go buddy... 2-1 to the Percies! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
It's Character Forming 1,160 Posted September 15, 2013 Well I certainly saw a difference in the way we set out on Saturday - we conceded possession freely and often didn''t even try to challenge until they were about 20 yards into our half. Which isn''t the way we normally play at home nor for quite a few away games (eg arsenal and Man U away last season we didn''t drop off nearly as much),Hence as JR has said - if you back off that much against quality players you will get punished.Also I don''t accept spurs forced us. It doesn''t matter who you''re playing, you can press the ball and close them down higher up the pitch even if they''re Barcelona. We chose not to. Which isn''t our normal style and frankly I hope the result and manner of it stop it happening again, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0 Posted September 15, 2013 [quote user="Jim Smith"]“It doesn’t matter about the amount of quality they’ve got – if you sit back against any team, they are going to try to find a way through,” “I just think with the players we’ve got and the signings we’ve made, we could just have been more aggressive in our play and really ask questions of other teams, as opposed to them asking questions about us.Oh no sorry thats not my view its the view of some other bloke called John who lives in Norwich and plays in goal for some team or other. Still all tjose fans who are saying exactly the same thing are all pantwetters and moaners.[/quote]So to paraphrase that first quote. "When you play another team, they will play against you trying to beat you". Massive scoop that quote isn''t it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,528 Posted September 15, 2013 So is that a difference in the way we were set out or the way we played? I''m sure we weren''t sent out there to concede posession and back off in the way we did. The only thing that could result from that is defeat. Is it now the case that some people believe the manager sends his team out to lose? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,317 Posted September 15, 2013 [quote user="nutty nigel"]So is that a difference in the way we were set out or the way we played? I''m sure we weren''t sent out there to concede posession and back off in the way we did. The only thing that could result from that is defeat. Is it now the case that some people believe the manager sends his team out to lose? [/quote]I don''t think that he believes we can beat these sides away and that attitude permeates through the team selections and approach to these games. It''s evident in his pre and post match comments and it must be evident to the players too. If our own manager simply does not believe we can beat the opposition how is he supposed to convince the players they can? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,528 Posted September 15, 2013 [quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="nutty nigel"]So is that a difference in the way we were set out or the way we played? I''m sure we weren''t sent out there to concede posession and back off in the way we did. The only thing that could result from that is defeat. Is it now the case that some people believe the manager sends his team out to lose? [/quote]I don''t think that he believes we can beat these sides away and that attitude permeates through the team selections and approach to these games. It''s evident in his pre and post match comments and it must be evident to the players too. If our own manager simply does not believe we can beat the opposition how is he supposed to convince the players they can?[/quote] So how do you reconcile that with last seasons games at Arsenal, Man City and Spurs? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0 Posted September 15, 2013 --- nutty nigel: The only thing that could result from that is defeat. Is it now the case that some people believe the manager sends his team out to lose?That is just not the case nutty, many teams set out to defend deep in the hope of frustrating the opposition and nicking a goal up the other end. It does not mean they want to lose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,528 Posted September 15, 2013 [quote user="Its Character Forming"]Well I certainly saw a difference in the way we set out on Saturday - we conceded possession freely and often didn''t even try to challenge until they were about 20 yards into our half. Which isn''t the way we normally play at home nor for quite a few away games (eg arsenal and Man U away last season we didn''t drop off nearly as much)[/quote] I was replying to that foggy. Not about defending deep. No manager sends out a team to concede posession freely. If they did they''d be sending a team out to lose. The whole basis of Hughton''s game plan is to be brave in posession and keep posession. Does anybody seriopusly think he sends them out to give the ball away and defend his box? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0 Posted September 15, 2013 --- nutty nigel: The whole basis of Hughton''s game plan is to be brave in posession and keep posession. Well then his team is failing in it''s game plan as we have the worst possession stat in the division this season at 41.8% (four games in so rather meaningless) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,528 Posted September 15, 2013 Foggy.... Help me out here, cuz it''s boring when you don''t bring anything to the table, what do you think his game plan is? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
priceyrice 123 Posted September 15, 2013 [quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]--- nutty nigel: The whole basis of Hughton''s game plan is to be brave in posession and keep posession. Well then his team is failing in it''s game plan as we have the worst possession stat in the division this season at 41.8% (four games in so rather meaningless)[/quote]Expect our possession stat to stay around that this season. We ended last season with an average of 43.9% at home and 42.5% away Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,528 Posted September 15, 2013 That hardly supports the argument that we are sent out differently home and away. In fact the team selection doesn''t support it either. So what does support it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites