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Hog

Valid concern?

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First of all I am delighted by our business in the Transfer Market so far, some excellent players bought in of a calibre way above our traditional station...

 

However, a little voice I can''t quite ignore makes me worry about things such as team cohesion, adaptation to EPL etc

Never before have we had such riches at our disposal and while I am very excited about the coming season, I can''t help but think that it all seems rather Football Managerish.. are we moving to the next level too quickly? Does this mean that if this current trend continues within three years of Premiership football we will have a squad of expensive players from all four corners of the World, I regularly slated QPR last season, they had bought almost two entire new teams in just two years, while we are no way comparable to that foolishness it still looks like around 8 new players will be in the squad for next season, players, who for the most part have not come to warm the bench. Our latest target, Quagliarella would slot very nicely into the No.10 role.....Hoolahan''s position. Hughton may well have to become the next tinkerman to keep them all happy! 

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[quote user="Hog"]

First of all I am delighted by our business in the Transfer Market so far, some excellent players bought in of a calibre way above our traditional station...

 

However, a little voice I can''t quite ignore makes me worry about things such as team cohesion, adaptation to EPL etc

Never before have we had such riches at our disposal and while I am very excited about the coming season, I can''t help but think that it all seems rather Football Managerish.. are we moving to the next level too quickly? Does this mean that if this current trend continues within three years of Premiership football we will have a squad of expensive players from all four corners of the World, I regularly slated QPR last season, they had bought almost two entire new teams in just two years, while we are no way comparable to that foolishness it still looks like around 8 new players will be in the squad for next season, players, who for the most part have not come to warm the bench. Our latest target, Quagliarella would slot very nicely into the No.10 role.....Hoolahan''s position. Hughton may well have to become the next tinkerman to keep them all happy! 

[/quote]

 

I would say that was a very valid concern.

 

One could portray a negative scenario - a group of international players, all with ego''s coming from a variety of European clubs, trying to gel with a tight knit group who have achieved mid-table security in the PL for 2 successive seasons, and who have just lost their talismanic and well respected captain.

 

However, one could equally portray a positive scenario - tight knit group who have achieved mid-table security in the PL for 2 successive seasons have had their ranks supplemented with a world class selection of international players, making the midfield and striking options an attacking force rarely seen in Canary colours.

 

In both scenarios, the core spine is still there - with one obvious omission - Grant Holt. I have had reservations about letting him go, both from a continuity perspective and because I viewed him as the "captains captain". By the same token I have considerable respect for CH and if in his considered opinion, we no longer need the influence of GH in the dressing room, then that''s all we need to know. We are also aware that GH was getting frustrated at not being able to play "his game" - which can be problematical when the coach wants him to play  a different role, and maybe the adaption to CH''s way was becoming too onerous for GH especially as he was so (successfully) set in his ways.

 

So, to the $64,000 question "Is CH able to cohesively integrate and successfully manage this enhanced squad?"

And the answer is........Yes, I believe he is. His overall demeanour, his previous experience at integrating overseas players at Newcastle gives me the confidence that, like "Bob the Builder" "Yes he can!"

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All of the players that we have signed seem like good eggs to me, who have signed for the right reasons (e.g. Hooper to try and win England honours, Van Wolfswinkel because he wants a move to a big four club after proving himself in the Premier League, Redmond came here because he wants to play for Hughton).
I would be much more worried about signing players who are not all that keen on playing for us, and for that reason I would like to give this Toby man an ultimatum, forget about Toivanan, forget about Quagliarella, and move on to finding some suitable targets with the hunger and drive who buy into what we are building. Just an opinion, others don''t have to share it. 
But worrying about new players settling in and gelling is nowhere near as worrying as signing nobody or hardly anybody and expecting the same players to succeed. You need to keep improving, you need to keep players on their toes, keep the dynamic fresh in the dressing room. 
9 signings, if it reaches that, is quite a lot. But I think any less than 5 signings for any Premier League team would probably not be enough in any summer window. 
My biggest concern, if anything, is whether we are going to leave something in the pot for January. I think it is always wise to keep some aside for a signing or two, you never know who might flop, which part of the pitch will suffer an injury crisis, or whether the right player pops up at the right price in January. 
If we hadn''t have had money left over last season we wouldn''t have been able to buy RVW in March, and if we didn''t sign him in March he''d have cost a lot more money - probably more like the money Swansea paid for Bony (£12m). 

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QPR signed too many mercenary journeymen looking for last big pay packet in the likes of Zamora, Dyer, Bosingwa and Johnson thus runining team-spirit and cohesion. We must avoid that at all costs. QPR also dumped their nucleus of hard workers and dedicated players such as Sean Derry and Clint Hill who were the mainstays of the promoted side. Only on their reintroduction to the regular team did QPR''s performances start to improve. I hope we don''t fall into that trap, but ''dumping'' our leadership mainstay and captain Holt without adequate proven replacement was not a good sign at all. He can never be brought back in if we need him. Yes, perhaps he wanted to go to be nearer home, but did we really try hard enough to persuade him to stay just a few more critical months.  I don''t think so. Too many changes, too quickly could indeed be our downfall and hopefully the powers that be realise that. A big squad needs to be kept happy so too much rotation of players may also be a detrimental factor for us this season. Liverpool have already stated that they will operate with a squad nucleus of around 17 players or so which surely makes sense as they will be far easier to manage and satisfy.  ''Quality, not quantity'' should be the mantra. 

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I would say that I would agree with posts here that we have built with players that are hungry and will fit in.

Olsson, Redmond are competing with our starters. Garrido was here last year and he has played at the highest level.

Fer and rvw know they are moving a club that''s moving forward and will give them a platform, if they perform they will make that World Cup squad and results will follow here at carrow road.

Nash is a fantastic experienced keeper. Personally I feel we have the potential for great cohesion on and off the field. I do feel the players also understand that it is a team game. 38 premiership games, two cup competitions means there will be playing time. The best players will bring on our other players.

If fabio and a defender came in then again the team would know that the team is in god shape to build for a few years in the prem.

We are not building too quickly, we are building what we need to build. Top quality players know they are involved in the team and the highs of building something.

With the toughest run at the end of the season that I believe any team have had, I am sure that some tinkering will kick in.

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The signings seem to be keeping everybody happy and creating huge expectations for next season.

The key for me is not the quality of the players, it''s whether they are managed as individuals, as a team and as a squad to get the best out of them and hence the best results.

My concerns over the manger were not dispelled by our grandstand finish to the season, My biggest worry is not who else we sign, but do we have a management team in place that will deliver what we all want. The pressure is really on after this window and fans will be wanting to see results.

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

A side issue, but it has some relevance here.

 

Does anybody know if Quagliarella speaks English?

[/quote]Personally I think your point is relevant as good communication is vital for achieving and maintaining a great team-spirit and player happiness in his environment. Some clubs even have a policy of avoiding signing just one individual from a country/culture/language if he may feel isolated. I think we may have this policy, having signed both RVW and De Fer from Holland. 

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It was, and is, my concern also, as McN and CH talk of further signings. I think that the start of the season when, on paper at least we should get a number of points to kick-start the season, may be disappointing because of the need to "bed in" so many players from different backgrounds. Currently we have RvW, Hooper, Olsson, Fer and Redmond, and one or two more are possible. I don''t count Nash, as he seems unlikely to figure, nor Garrido as he is not new.

 

We could start the season with as many as seven out of eleven who have not often played with each other or for us.

 

Would we have done better to have kept some of our money and signed perhaps only three new players? The existing squad were not good enough, and we did well to survive. The problem facing CH is that we could have concentrated on the strikers - signing three, but without reinforcement in the midfield it would have been risky and without reinforcing the defence we could have continued leaking goals away from home.

 

The policy adopted, to strengthen all parts of the team, partly because our "rivals" in the lower half had done so, increases our chances of survival. Most of the signings were done relatively early, before the main melee in August, and gives maximum opportunity for old and new members of the squad to gel. We now have good cover for all positions, in case of injury, which also increases our chances. (When Holt was injured and the options were either Morison or Jackson, or both, that was a little scary!) So, all in all, we have taken a massive step forward, and relatively inexpensively for what we have obtained.

 

There is a risk of a poor start which is difficult to turn round, of player fall-out and recrimination, of injury and loss of form, but was there any option? If we had signed two or three expensive players only, there was a risk of expensive failure also. Which risk was greater?

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There''s no pleasing anyone. One moment it''s the team needs strengthening/not enough Premiership quality, then it''s too old a players and do on.

How many players have we got in the past few seasons during the summer? Check it out, similar amount. Did they do ok over the course of each season? These are quality upgrades

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I guess it is fair enough having a certain level of concern, as it is always a bit of a gamble when bringing players in, but you have to hope and expect that we are doing our homework to make sure we are bringing in the ''right'' guys for us. The signs are good so far, none of them seem to be prima donnas, and CH does also have a good reputation in this area, but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

As to the number of transfers this summer, it hasn''t really been any more than other recent years - I think we signed 9 last close season (Bunn, Kane, Turner, Garrido, Bassong, Tettey, Whittaker, Butterworth, Snoddy) and a similar number the year before - and there weren''t too many (any?) issues. You might consider that had we not been making signings and upgrading our staff, that there would have been valid complaints about complacency/how we were going to struggle.

For me, my only vague concern is that we will have a completely new front line, but that isn''t a huge worry right now as the players are a far better calibre than the ones they are replacing and there isn''t any particular reason to think they aren''t up to it.

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I would be much more concerned if we had only signed a couple of players.Top quality players should be able to adapt to new surroundings and team mates very quickly.

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It is a bit of a gamble but i think if your signing quality players will intergrate well and gel with everyone. The way i try to look at it is when players are called up for international duty. All from different clubs but still gel.

Ok another scenario, a little bit different but when Ambramovich came in and brought a shedload of players 1st yr. Ok albeit some were World Class but a lot of players,better than what they had at the time.

We have signed a lot of internationals and are def upgrades to the players we released.

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I feel it is a valid point.

Having said that, I also feel that we are moving into unchartered territories, as we seek to be a top 10 team in the best League in the World (according to some). We are, (and never have been, as the early Prem years were totally different) just not used to it

A team with that sort of aspiration, could not, with the greatest of respect, rely on the ''Holt'' factor anymore. i.e a talisman of a character (as opposed to a major influence on the playing side). None of the top teams have that sort of player in their squad, who hasn''t been an international player in very recent times.

It is just something we will have to get used to, and also trust Hughton''s judgement and team building skills.

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[quote user="Hackedoff"]It is a bit of a gamble but i think if your signing quality players will intergrate well and gel with everyone. The way i try to look at it is when players are called up for international duty. All from different clubs but still gel. Ok another scenario, a little bit different but when Ambramovich came in and brought a shedload of players 1st yr. Ok albeit some were World Class but a lot of players,better than what they had at the time. We have signed a lot of internationals and are def upgrades to the players we released.[/quote]

 

Totally agree.

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I''m impressed, a thread full of sensible reasoned argument without an insult in sight. Almost a first for this board..

 

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I think we also need to take into consideration how many of the signings are going to actually go straight into the first team?

I would be more concerned if the view was going to be all of them straight into the first team but I don''t think that''s going to be the case.

Olsson hasn''t featured yet and I wouldn''t expect to be fully fit to walk into the first team with a month to go. Would expect to see Garrido or maybe even Whittaker starting at left back once the season gets under way.

Nash is backup keeper and as everyone has pointed out, doesn''t really count.

Redmond has been brought in as a young player with huge potential and I think that''s how he will be managed to begin with. Impact player looking to come on, shake teams up, and earn that starting place.

That leaves you with the attacking three and who starts out of those really does depend on the formation we play?

I think we can all agree that v. Wolfswinkel will definitely be starting and it''s interesting that Hooper has been earmarked as saying he hopes to be starting playing just off v. Wolfswinkel as that''s where he''s been very impressive in the past. Does that mean we''ll be playing a 4-2-3-1 with Hooper in the middle dropping Hoolahan? Or are we looking at a 4-4-1-1 with Hooper just off?

If it''s 4-2-3-1 is Johnson or Howson dropped to accomodate Fer in the middle, and the same question for the 4-4-1-1?

I think at a push we could be looking at 3 or 4 players starting that weren''t last season but it certainly gets harder to call if another CB and a player in the Quag mould do come in.

Best we utilise these pre-season games in the way they''re intended and get these players bedded in!

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[quote user="paul moy"]QPR signed too many mercenary journeymen looking for last big pay packet in the likes of Zamora, Dyer, Bosingwa and Johnson thus runining team-spirit and cohesion. We must avoid that at all costs. QPR also dumped their nucleus of hard workers and dedicated players such as Sean Derry and Clint Hill who were the mainstays of the promoted side. Only on their reintroduction to the regular team did QPR''s performances start to improve.

I hope we don''t fall into that trap, but ''dumping'' our leadership mainstay and captain Holt without adequate proven replacement was not a good sign at all. He can never be brought back in if we need him. Yes, perhaps he wanted to go to be nearer home, but did we really try hard enough to persuade him to stay just a few more critical months.  I don''t think so.

Too many changes, too quickly could indeed be our downfall and hopefully the powers that be realise that. A big squad needs to be kept happy so too much rotation of players may also be a detrimental factor for us this season. Liverpool have already stated that they will operate with a squad nucleus of around 17 players or so which surely makes sense as they will be far easier to manage and satisfy.  ''Quality, not quantity'' should be the mantra. 
[/quote]

If you sincerely believe that there really is no hope. Two solid, reliable Championship performers who were so clearly out of their depth. Would you want them here?

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[quote user="Hackedoff"]It is a bit of a gamble but i think if your signing quality players will intergrate well and gel with everyone. The way i try to look at it is when players are called up for international duty. All from different clubs but still gel. Ok another scenario, a little bit different but when Ambramovich came in and brought a shedload of players 1st yr. Ok albeit some were World Class but a lot of players,better than what they had at the time. We have signed a lot of internationals and are def upgrades to the players we released.[/quote]

 

Is the bigger gamble signing players or not signing them?

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Point worth noting is that we haven''t lost any of our best players (leaving out whether or not Grant Holt would have made an impact this season) so we basically have the same team that kept us up, and finished in a good position, as we had last season.

And added some even better quality to the squad.

What could possibly go wrong lol?

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[quote user="Webbo118"]

[quote user="paul moy"]QPR signed too many mercenary journeymen looking for last big pay packet in the likes of Zamora, Dyer, Bosingwa and Johnson thus runining team-spirit and cohesion. We must avoid that at all costs. QPR also dumped their nucleus of hard workers and dedicated players such as Sean Derry and Clint Hill who were the mainstays of the promoted side. Only on their reintroduction to the regular team did QPR''s performances start to improve. I hope we don''t fall into that trap, but ''dumping'' our leadership mainstay and captain Holt without adequate proven replacement was not a good sign at all. He can never be brought back in if we need him. Yes, perhaps he wanted to go to be nearer home, but did we really try hard enough to persuade him to stay just a few more critical months.  I don''t think so. Too many changes, too quickly could indeed be our downfall and hopefully the powers that be realise that. A big squad needs to be kept happy so too much rotation of players may also be a detrimental factor for us this season. Liverpool have already stated that they will operate with a squad nucleus of around 17 players or so which surely makes sense as they will be far easier to manage and satisfy.  ''Quality, not quantity'' should be the mantra.  [/quote]

If you sincerely believe that there really is no hope. Two solid, reliable Championship performers who were so clearly out of their depth. Would you want them here?

[/quote]The fact is that even though they were lower quality than other members of the squad, they cared and gave 100% every game and team performance thus improved on their reintroduction. Give me any time that rather than a ''gifted'' 50%er primadonna such as Bosingwa, clearly only there for his megabucks.

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I think it is a valid concern. No one is saying the club have done anything wrong by going after better international players. The worry is that a cohesive Everton with only a few changes turn up at Carrow rd and Norwich turn up with 8 new starters on the pitch all still trying to settle in, with a number of previous regulars on the bench feeling a little bruised.

I think the recruitment policy this season has been consistent. We are still looking for hungry players of a certain age all be it aiming to achieve higher goals. Instead of achieving "being a EPL player", our signings want to achieve "being a world cup player". Some of the names mentioned recently do not fit this policy and I think could hinder the team overall if they arrive.

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"and Norwich turn up with 8 new starters on the pitch all still trying to settle in

eh ! ! !who might these 8 new starters be ?

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We won''t fall into a QPR type trap.   Because we can''t afford to pay silly wages, we are not going to attract players who are just in it for the money.   We offer something different - a club with less money, but one that has good values and is well run - and is building for the future.   This is going to attract players who will settle for slightly less in wages because they can see a better football experience may be possible.   I am genuinely excited by who we have bought and the kind of players they are - not mercenaries - and who I think will give everything for the cause.

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"lake district canary"

We won''t fall into a QPR type trap.   Because we can''t afford to pay silly wages, we are not going to attract players who are just in it for the money.   We offer something different - a club with less money, but one that has good values and is well run - and is building for the future.   This is going to attract players who will settle for slightly less in wages because they can see a better football experience may be possible.   I am genuinely excited by who we have bought and the kind of players they are - not mercenaries - and who I think will give everything for the cause.

Tend to agree with this. QPR are a basket case and a lesson in how not to run a club.

We have learnt over the years how to spend within our means. We have also,under Hughton, a sensible tranfer policy. Buying exactly what we need. Last year our defence needed an overhaul and got it. This year, as we all realised, our forward line needed an overhaul, and we are well on the way to achieving it.

Slight concern about them gelling etc. but that is always the way with new signings.

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City1st I didn''t say we have 8 new starters I''m saying that is the concern. The title of the discussion is called "valid concern?".

McNally has said we are definitely not finished yet. If we sign a CB and another midfielder for example would you say we would be far off?

Wolfswinkel, Fer, Hooper, Redmond, Olsson + 2 more signings OK is 7 not 8 but the point still stands.

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All Clubs will start the new season with new players trying to gel, and in Everton''s case, Phil Jagielka has already stated that they are trying to get used to a new regime of playing under Martinez.

We''ll be ok

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We are no different to any other club, even fans of the big clubs will have their concerns about the coming season and how they will do.

I look at it 2 ways, 1. Have we strengthened and 2. Do I trust our leaders.

The answer to both of these questions has to be yes. The players we have got in are not only better than those that have left by also arguably better than what we have in the squad which is surely a tick in the box and in the main McN and Hughton have got very little wrong since they came in, there are very few players you will be able to point to as failures.

QPR are a great example of an owner who has absolutely no idea what running a football club is actually about, thinks throwing money at big names is the answer and is naive to think that a club like QPR can buy success. Was listening to Talksport earlier and they were talking about the emergence of Monaco and PSG as big spenders, the French football expert was under no doubt that throwing lots of money at a team does not get instant success, building on what you have is the answer, which dare I say has been the Norwich way for the last 4 or so years.

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[quote user="hertfordyellow"]City1st I didn''t say we have 8 new starters I''m saying that is the concern. The title of the discussion is called "valid concern?".

McNally has said we are definitely not finished yet. If we sign a CB and another midfielder for example would you say we would be far off?

Wolfswinkel, Fer, Hooper, Redmond, Olsson + 2 more signings OK is 7 not 8 but the point still stands.[/quote]It may stand but it is not valid, for a couple of reasons.Firstly it is highly unlikely that all five named will start. Can''t see Redmond being automatic choice and there is no certainty Garrido will be replaced by Olsson or that Olsson will be LM either. Likewise we are not certain whether RVW and Hooper will start together.Secondly these are professional footballers, not motorcycle stunt riders. They will have trained and played together before the Everton game - that''s what tonight is about.

What the real concern shoould be is that stuff like this getting posted up. Cast your mind back 4 years. we had just been stuffed 1-7. Had some ''prophet'' told City fans that not only would we win the title by a long way that season, we would follow it up with automatic promotion then two years mid table in the PL what would have been the reaction of our fans when they were further told that we could be spending up to £30m on players with a wage bill approaching £50m ?" oh no, we are doomed "how have we got ourselves into such a position where signing top quaity players is considered a concern ?

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