West Ham moving for Snodgrass

[Mr Jenkins 0]

Sports psychology is not ignored by footballers or football clubs, but they tend to use professionals with expertise rather than employing some off the wall know it all spouting tripe!

Thats not just condemnation there is also a comment in there for your information,

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Canarygirl"]Sports psychology is not ignored by footballers or football clubs, but they tend to use professionals with expertise rather than employing some off the wall know it all spouting tripe!

Thats not just condemnation there is also a comment in there for your information,[/quote]

Footballers are renowned for being less interested in the psychology side of things.  Thankfully, things are starting to change - Paul Mcveigh is at the forefront of this side of football, and there others doing the same.    "Off the wall spouting tripe" is not what I have been doing, but I can fully understand if people find it boring, if so I apologise.

[walks on water 0]

Fergie-time anyone? Refs are only human ..sadly there is a place for gamesmanship in the modern game. While this is perceived as having an effect, some will seek to take advantage. Wish those overseeing the beautiful game would take meaningful measures to return the focus to football(and not winning by any means) ...but I won''t hold my breath.

Not a great fan of the wrong shaped ball, but the ''respect'' campaign could learn plenty from that game.

[ReadingCanary 0]

We don''t sell anyone against our will #ncfc - McNally

[Norfolk Mustard 94]

[quote user="Canarygirl"]Potential for another classic LDC threaad here. Dig, dig, dig and develop an even more absurd point with each post. Where will this one end I wonder.[/quote]

 

Dig deep? LDC is explaining perfectly well to those who have flexible views - seems a few on here are simply too fixed in their opinions! That''s perfectly normal - and fairly typical of any cross-section of society.

Personally I ''get'' what LDC says. I also ''get'' what Steve Black says - that''s why I follow him on Twitter https://twitter.com/B1ackie  Anthony Pilkington rates Blackie very highly - I don''t know about you, but I tend to take rather more notice of what some of the Pro''s say! 

It''s irrelevant whether you''re a team of eleven or a team of one; ultimately the results we achieve - whatever they may be - come as a direct result of our individual and (in the case of teams) collective mind-sets.  

I could supply a stack of material that supports the benefits of psychology - but that would not provide a particularly good ''return on energy'' on this forum would it?

In any case, I need to go and get some sleep now as I''m delivering mind-set training for a group of business leaders all day tomorrow!...

 

 

 

 

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Norfolk Mustard"]

[quote user="Canarygirl"]Potential for another classic LDC threaad here. Dig, dig, dig and develop an even more absurd point with each post. Where will this one end I wonder.[/quote]

 

Dig deep? LDC is explaining perfectly well to those who have flexible views - seems a few on here are simply too fixed in their opinions! That''s perfectly normal - and fairly typical of any cross-section of society.

Personally I ''get'' what LDC says. I also ''get'' what Steve Black says - that''s why I follow him on Twitter https://twitter.com/B1ackie  Anthony Pilkington rates Blackie very highly - I don''t know about you, but I tend to take rather more notice of what some of the Pro''s say! 

It''s irrelevant whether you''re a team of eleven or a team of one; ultimately the results we achieve - whatever they may be - come as a direct result of our individual and (in the case of teams) collective mind-sets.  

I could supply a stack of material that supports the benefits of psychology - but that would not provide a particularly good ''return on energy'' on this forum would it?

In any case, I need to go and get some sleep now as I''m delivering mind-set training for a group of business leaders all day tomorrow!...

 [/quote]

Well, good luck with your mind-set training.  If you do find time in your busy schedule to discuss this further, I''m interested in your views on something.

Most Premier League clubs have sports psychologists working with the players individually and, presumably collectively.

Why do players, individually and collectively, persist in questioning referee decisions and showing their frustration?

Surely if it was negative behaviour and affected a player''s (or a team''s) performance levels then the sports psychologist, coach, manager would all have had words with the player and ask him to change his attitude as it was impacting negatively on his performance?

[Mr Jenkins 0]

[quote user="Norfolk Mustard"]

[quote user="Canarygirl"]Potential for another classic LDC threaad here. Dig, dig, dig and develop an even more absurd point with each post. Where will this one end I wonder.[/quote]

Dig deep? LDC is explaining perfectly well to those who have flexible views - seems a few on here are simply too fixed in their opinions! That''s perfectly normal - and fairly typical of any cross-section of society.

Personally I ''get'' what LDC says. I also ''get'' what Steve Black says - that''s why I follow him on Twitter https://twitter.com/B1ackie Anthony Pilkington rates Blackie very highly - I don''t know about you, but I tend to take rather more notice of what some of the Pro''s say!

It''s irrelevant whether you''re a team of eleven or a team of one; ultimately the results we achieve - whatever they may be - come as a direct result of our individual and (in the case of teams) collective mind-sets.

I could supply a stack of material that supports the benefits of psychology - but that would not provide a particularly good ''return on energy'' on this forum would it?

In any case, I need to go and get some sleep now as I''m delivering mind-set training for a group of business leaders all day tomorrow!...

[/quote]

I am not decrying the benefit of sports psychology, far from it, I am sure we have them working with our players at Colney. You obviosly imply some sort of expertise in this field, strange, cos from my recollection Blackie was a fitness coach with Wales and subsequently other rugby clubs.

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Canarygirl"]Sports psychology is not ignored by footballers or football clubs, but they tend to use professionals with expertise rather than employing some off the wall know it all spouting tripe!

Thats not just condemnation there is also a comment in there for your information,[/quote]Footballers are renowned for being less interested in the psychology side of things.  Thankfully, things are starting to change - Paul Mcveigh is at the forefront of this side of football, and there others doing the same.    "Off the wall spouting tripe" is not what I have been doing, but I can fully understand if people find it boring, if so I apologise.[/quote]

Psychology has been huge in football for well over a decade now. It was a bit unknown when Glen Hoddle started getting faith healers in, but then we started getting sophisticated continental coaches like Wenger in the league and I suspect there isn''t a single club in the top two divisions who don''t use them to some degree. 

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]Most Premier League clubs have sports psychologists working with the players individually and, presumably collectively. Why do players, individually and collectively, persist in questioning referee decisions and showing their frustration? Surely if it was negative behaviour and affected a player''s (or a team''s) performance levels then the sports psychologist, coach, manager would all have had words with the player and ask him to change his attitude as it was impacting negatively on his performance?

[/quote]

If I may answer you  Mr.C, I think you have asked the most pertinent question in all this.  Professional football as a sport does sell itself short  with all the nonsense with refs and diving and so on.   The popular trend is that fallling over to try and get a free kick is the thing to do, feigning injury, pressurising the ref, etc. etc.    As I said in one of my earlier "waffles",  teams would be better off cutting this kind of thing out completely.  Some say that if they did stop, it would give the advantage to the opposition, or stop the team getting chances or penalties, or whatever.   But  the positive side of every team member buying in to such a radical policy of pure football, would far outweigh the benefits of the cheating and gamesmanship.  I am convinced you would find that a team would become more of a force - a powerful, focussed, energised force, that would make for a brand of football similar to a Brian Clough team at its height.   Martin O''Neill at his best came close to achieving this and Paul Lambert too, until we got to the premiership, where some players thought they had to start play acting a bit more.   When I see Borussia Dortmund play, they seem to have a similar attitude.

It would take a very strong manager to convince all his players to play in this way, but its not impossible and I wish more managers were strong enough to try it.    Getting back to the subject of the thread, Snodders, who we all love for his effort and passion could be a better player if he improved this aspect of his football.  If you think back to Archie Gemmill, another Scottish footballer who loved to dribble (and a Clough player too), he was one of the most passionate players you would wish to see on a pitch but he focussed that passion  in a way that was effective all the time.  Dangerous every time he got the ball.  With Snoddgrass, you don''t get the sense that he is going to deliver every time he gets the ball.  You get the sense that he is going to try something - and that is good - but you also get the sense that there is a fair chance he will overhit the ball, or dribble one player too far.    Psychology or not, that is something he could improve and why he is not yet the finished article.  

[*** 0]

They call me mad, fine, but by Christ you''re boring LDC, without your mind numbing support for this non rumour it would have ended four pages ago!

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Wiz"]They call me mad, fine, but by Christ you''re boring LDC, without your mind numbing support for this non rumour it would have ended four pages ago![/quote]

Boring or not, its what is being discussed.   Its a discussion board.    You know all about them, or should by now as you go on enough of them!

[*** 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Wiz"]They call me mad, fine, but by Christ you''re boring LDC, without your mind numbing support for this non rumour it would have ended four pages ago![/quote]


Boring or not, its what is being discussed.   Its a discussion board.    You know all about them, or should by now as you go on enough of them!



[/quote]

 

Touche. [Y]

[*** 0]

This Daily Mirror rumour has hardly caused a big ripple on the West Ham boards...................I wonder why?[:|]

[Ray 111]

Re the psychology many are talking about, it works and improving your mental attitude to anything, whether it be as a team or individual can only improve performance. The chemicals created within your brain when in an ''angry/frustrated'' state serve only to inhibit innovation and creativity, so don''t expect a killer through ball for a minute or two if you''ve been involved in a ''negative'' incident. Ask yourself, how quickly can I go from a positive mood to a negative one, typically in a milli-second, yet going from a negative mood to a positive one takes far longer!

However, there is little point attempting to address behaviour without addressing thinking (mindset or attitude or whatever you want to call it).  Attempting to address behaviour solely will have an effect for a while but just like a stretched elastic band it will snap back to its original position unless mindset is addressed and by mindset I mean the values and beliefs held with your subconscious.  It is these values and beliefs that drive your feelings and emotions, which in turn drive your behaviour.

So, I agree that many players, including Mr Snodgrass, exhibit negative behaviour, which in turn diminishes performance.  This behaviour is a merciless reflection of the values and beliefs they hold, however they were not born with these values and beliefs, they have formulated or adopted them over their lifetime, so, this means different values and beliefs can be adopted, values and beliefs that will provide more positive emotions, giving rise to more positive behaviour, which in turn become habitual and low and behold the results achieved are also more positive.

The issue is whether clubs, managers, players realise how simple it is to encourage a positive change, notice I didn''t say easy, it does take some work.  In my experience football is definitely behind most other sports, although this is slowly changing, my experience also tells me that the ''mindset'' side of the game is often left to the individual and I have worked with some splendid individuals from the PL, the sad part about it is that those that could perhaps benefit the most, believe they won''t! In which case I guess they think they are the finished article!!!

When you think how much money is spent on physical training, pre season tours, etc the amount required to provide the entire squad with the tools to mange their mindset is miniscule, and let''s face it, a 5% improvement in the level of our performance can, and will, make an enormous difference to results and of course every position higher up the league brings in hundreds of thousands, or millions, so worth a punt then??

[*** 0]

All this rubbish has only come from one National rag, no one else has even mentioned it. .............and all this other hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo nonsense is hardly in keeping with the thread''s original subject is it?

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Ray"]

Re the psychology many are talking about, it works and improving your mental attitude to anything, whether it be as a team or individual can only improve performance. The chemicals created within your brain when in an ''angry/frustrated'' state serve only to inhibit innovation and creativity, so don''t expect a killer through ball for a minute or two if you''ve been involved in a ''negative'' incident. Ask yourself, how quickly can I go from a positive mood to a negative one, typically in a milli-second, yet going from a negative mood to a positive one takes far longer!

However, there is little point attempting to address behaviour without addressing thinking (mindset or attitude or whatever you want to call it).  Attempting to address behaviour solely will have an effect for a while but just like a stretched elastic band it will snap back to its original position unless mindset is addressed and by mindset I mean the values and beliefs held with your subconscious.  It is these values and beliefs that drive your feelings and emotions, which in turn drive your behaviour.

So, I agree that many players, including Mr Snodgrass, exhibit negative behaviour, which in turn diminishes performance.  This behaviour is a merciless reflection of the values and beliefs they hold, however they were not born with these values and beliefs, they have formulated or adopted them over their lifetime, so, this means different values and beliefs can be adopted, values and beliefs that will provide more positive emotions, giving rise to more positive behaviour, which in turn become habitual and low and behold the results achieved are also more positive.

The issue is whether clubs, managers, players realise how simple it is to encourage a positive change, notice I didn''t say easy, it does take some work.  In my experience football is definitely behind most other sports, although this is slowly changing, my experience also tells me that the ''mindset'' side of the game is often left to the individual and I have worked with some splendid individuals from the PL, the sad part about it is that those that could perhaps benefit the most, believe they won''t! In which case I guess they think they are the finished article!!!

When you think how much money is spent on physical training, pre season tours, etc the amount required to provide the entire squad with the tools to mange their mindset is miniscule, and let''s face it, a 5% improvement in the level of our performance can, and will, make an enormous difference to results and of course every position higher up the league brings in hundreds of thousands, or millions, so worth a punt then??

[/quote]

On numerous occasions, I have seen a player "lose it" due to a perceived injustice and play "out of his skin" for the rest of the match. The poor refereeing decision, bad foul not punished or whatever it was that created the "negative feeling" has, in fact, acted as a positive factor resulting in improved performance. Different sport I know but didn''t John Mc Enroe''s play always seem to improve after a good rant? 

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Webbo118"]On numerous occasions, I have seen a player "lose it" due to a perceived injustice and play "out of his skin" for the rest of the match. The poor refereeing decision, bad foul not punished or whatever it was that created the "negative feeling" has, in fact, acted as a positive factor resulting in improved performance. Different sport I know but didn''t John Mc Enroe''s play always seem to improve after a good rant? [/quote]

Fighting the negative by being positive has always been a way of regaining focus.  McEnroe had it off to a tee.   However it doesn''t lead to prolonged and consistent success.   McEnroe - at his very best - when he played Borg for instance - was generally more quiet and focused.  So although the fighting of the negative works up to a point, often it means you have to have a negative before you start performing.   Footballers have only 90 minutes to perform at their peak, usually just once a week.  They need to be totally focused for that 90 minutes, not going positive, negative, positive, negative. That only leads to inconsistency.    It is a mindset as Ray says.  We''re going to hear a lot more about this kind of thing as football catches up with other sports.  Players and managers are realising that to get the best out of themselves or their players they will have to cut the non football stuff.

[Yellowfuture 71]

I think we should put 22 cyber men on the field and watch the exciting display.

The whole game is about emotion, on and off the field, positive and negative.

Has been and I sincerely hope always will be!

[Ray 111]

Hi Webbo, yes this is possible, however we don''t know how well he would have performed otherwise.  Also, McEnroe says the following in his book;

 

But would McEnroe have been a better player without the tantrums? The great man himself certainly thinks so.   He writes in his autobiography, ‘Serious’, that if he had had the ability to remain calm, he would have performed better.  Of course, one might say that with 7 Grand Slam titles to his name,  McEnroe was already performing to the top of his ability. But after his golden year of 1984 (42-match winning streak + victory at the US Open and Wimbledon), McEnroe never again won a singles Grand Slam.  Although he often played well in his later years on tour, he never made it past the semis in any of the Grand Slams, and had difficulty getting to grips with the high power games of younger tennis stars like Boris Becker.

In fact, McEnroe is the first to admit that his temper often disrupted his rhythm, and was often an indication that he was about to choke.  He sees his anger as a response to nerves and a deep-seated fear of failure.

So, it appears, if we accept McEnroe as someone who performed at the highest level, no matter how good you are your ''mindset'' dramatically affects your performance, so why not take steps to improve it.

Let''s face it you cannot put one foot in front of the other without your brain playing a pivotal part, so consequently, playing free flowing football comes only from your brain which instructs your body and just like a computer, the better it is programmed the better it will perform.

The Original 1st Wizard (Wiz) has the temerity to use words such as; hocus, pocus, mumbo jumbo nonsense, take a look at your profile Wiz!!

The game is always about emotion, it is emotion that drives behaviour, so rather watch a game of positive and negative emotion, just how much of an advantage would a team have if they performed for 90 mins driven by solely positive emotion, unlikely I know, but more positive emotion and less negative emption can only improve performance.

Those who ridicule, I refer you to my previous post and suggest you think you are the finished article, God help us all!!

When you think you are green you are still growing, if you think you are ripe you start to rot.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="thefutureisyellow"]I think we should put 22 cyber men on the field and watch the exciting display.

The whole game is about emotion, on and off the field, positive and negative.

Has been and I sincerely hope always will be![/quote]Like this??

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Webbo118"]On numerous occasions, I have seen a player "lose it" due to a perceived injustice and play "out of his skin" for the rest of the match. The poor refereeing decision, bad foul not punished or whatever it was that created the "negative feeling" has, in fact, acted as a positive factor resulting in improved performance. Different sport I know but didn''t John Mc Enroe''s play always seem to improve after a good rant? [/quote]


Fighting the negative by being positive has always been a way of regaining focus.  McEnroe had it off to a tee.   However it doesn''t lead to prolonged and consistent success.   McEnroe - at his very best - when he played Borg for instance - was generally more quiet and focused.  So although the fighting of the negative works up to a point, often it means you have to have a negative before you start performing.   Footballers have only 90 minutes to perform at their peak, usually just once a week.  They need to be totally focused for that 90 minutes, not going positive, negative, positive, negative. That only leads to inconsistency.    It is a mindset as Ray says.  We''re going to hear a lot more about this kind of thing as football catches up with other sports.  Players and managers are realising that to get the best out of themselves or their players they will have to cut the non football stuff.



[/quote]

Yet another re-write of history attempt by Lakey. The reason that McEnroe was equal to Borg in their matches ( wins vs losses ) is precisely because he knew the more he tried to act like Borg on the court he would lose every time, so he didn''t. Don''t ask me a question on this .....look it up and see what McEnroe himself had to say on the subject. He did not believe he was "generally more quiet and focused" against Borg but, of course, he did not have the benefit of LDC''s wisdom on the matter.

[Yellowfuture 71]

Sign him up LDC

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Webbo118"]On numerous occasions, I have seen a player "lose it" due to a perceived injustice and play "out of his skin" for the rest of the match. The poor refereeing decision, bad foul not punished or whatever it was that created the "negative feeling" has, in fact, acted as a positive factor resulting in improved performance. Different sport I know but didn''t John Mc Enroe''s play always seem to improve after a good rant? [/quote]Fighting the negative by being positive has always been a way of regaining focus.  McEnroe had it off to a tee.   However it doesn''t lead to prolonged and consistent success.   McEnroe - at his very best - when he played Borg for instance - was generally more quiet and focused.  So although the fighting of the negative works up to a point, often it means you have to have a negative before you start performing.   Footballers have only 90 minutes to perform at their peak, usually just once a week.  They need to be totally focused for that 90 minutes, not going positive, negative, positive, negative. That only leads to inconsistency.    It is a mindset as Ray says.  We''re going to hear a lot more about this kind of thing as football catches up with other sports.  Players and managers are realising that to get the best out of themselves or their players they will have to cut the non football stuff. [/quote]

Yet another re-write of history attempt by Lakey. The reason that McEnroe was equal to Borg in their matches ( wins vs losses ) is precisely because he knew the more he tried to act like Borg on the court he would lose every time, so he didn''t. Don''t ask me a question on this .....look it up and see what McEnroe himself had to say on the subject. He did not believe he was "generally more quiet and focused" against Borg but, of course, he did not have the benefit of LDC''s wisdom on the matter.[/quote]

Yet another attempt to discredit me is flawed. "If he tried to act like Borg he would lose every time".  Who said I said anything about acting like Borg??  I simply said that McEnroe was quieter and more focused  - because he knew he had to be - because he respected Borg so much.   Its well known that McEnroe was much more focused when playing Borg - two quotes for you -

Even

more than his great wins, McEnroe loves to remember that match and,

oddly, isn’t bothered at all by the fact that he lost. “I’m just glad to

have been a part of something that special,” he says. “It’s certainly

one of the highlights of my career.” It was as if only when playing Borg

— whom McEnroe considers, along with 1960s great Rod Laver, to be the

best ever — did he remember how beautiful a game tennis could be. He

forgot the trappings of being the mad artist and focused on the canvas. -

See more at:

http://julianrubinstein.com/articles/mcenroe/#sthash.zjv9Cdhi.dpuf

            "Even more than his great wins, McEnroe loves to

remember that match and, oddly, isn’t bothered at all by the fact that he lost.

“I’m just glad to have been a part of something that special,” he says. “It’s

certainly one of the highlights of my career.” It was as if only when playing

Borg — whom McEnroe considers, along with 1960s great Rod Laver, to be the best

ever — did he remember how beautiful a game tennis could be. He forgot the

trappings of being the mad artist and focused on the canvas."

Even

more than his great wins, McEnroe loves to remember that match and,

oddly, isn’t bothered at all by the fact that he lost. “I’m just glad to

have been a part of something that special,” he says. “It’s certainly

one of the highlights of my career.” It was as if only when playing Borg

— whom McEnroe considers, along with 1960s great Rod Laver, to be the

best ever — did he remember how beautiful a game tennis could be. He

forgot the trappings of being the mad artist and focused on the canvas. -

See more at:

http://julianrubinstein.com/articles/mcenroe/#sthash.zjv9Cdhi.dpuf

Arthur Ashe, McEnroe''s Davis Cup captain,

remembers the time several years ago when a London newspaper ran the

opinions several psychiatrists held about McEnroe. "One of them

theorized that John obviously felt he had very few peers," says Ashe.

"Maybe Borg then. Remember, whenever he played Borg there was no nonsense at

all. I always found that revealing."

          I could post several more quotes articles on this but this is supposed to be a football forum.  Give it up Yankee.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Sorry, meant to say another attempt to discredit me "by Yankee".  An important distinction.

[*** 0]

Jeez! now its moved on to tennis ffs![:S]

 

Lock this thread mods...........please.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="Wiz"]Jeez! now its moved on to tennis ffs![:S] Lock this thread mods...........please. [/quote]I take it you don''t like glorified ping pong either then Wiz? [;)]

[*** 0]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Wiz"]Jeez! now its moved on to tennis ffs![:S] Lock this thread mods...........please. [/quote]
I take it you don''t like glorified ping pong either then Wiz? [;)]
[/quote]

 

Too damn right Lapps especially within a Snoddy thread!

[ReadingCanary 0]

[quote user="Wiz"]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Wiz"]Jeez! now its moved on to tennis ffs![:S] Lock this thread mods...........please. [/quote]I take it you don''t like glorified ping pong either then Wiz? [;)][/quote]

 

Too damn right Lapps especially within a Snoddy thread!

[/quote]Do you see Snodgrass as being British or Scottish?

[*** 0]

[quote user="ReadingCanary"][quote user="Wiz"]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Wiz"]Jeez! now its moved on to tennis ffs![:S] Lock this thread mods...........please. [/quote]
I take it you don''t like glorified ping pong either then Wiz? [;)]
[/quote]

 

Too damn right Lapps especially within a Snoddy thread!

[/quote]

Do you see Snodgrass as being British or Scottish?
[/quote]

 

I like that Reading, clever.[Y]

[Ray 111]

Clever Wiz, but not clever enough, because we could ask the same question of Andy Murray, British or Scottish, so back to tennis!! You could counter, Celtic when they won the European Cup, British or Scottish, so back to football, but then we will of course be playing ping pong with each other, so there we go, back to tennis!!

Good vying with you Sir, enjoy the rest of the pre-season and of course the superb season and cup runs we are about to have.