Norwich City, Stephen Fry and gay footballers

[Dubai Mark 0]

This is a big subject and one worth a decent discussion. Considering that Stephen Fry is a NCFC Board member and his excellent recent open letter to the PM & the ICC about banning the Russian Olympics, would his connection with our club mean that it is likely we could have the first Premier league footballer coming out of the closet? Does his connection make no difference on this? As I suspect, will we perhaps not see a footballer in the Premier league coming out for many years yet? What are your views on this subject?  

 

Oh, and just noticed that Stephen Fry now has over 6 million twitter followers, thats amazing!

[the bristol nest 0]

Morning Mark. Interesting post.

I think that we could be the club best placed to facilitate this. I find it bizarre that such a high profile media based industry remains so far adrift from contemporary cultural norms.

I don''t recall City fans being unpleasant about Justin Fashanu all those years ago and didn''t our club become the first to publicly announce its opposition to homophobia a year or so ago?

However, I am not sure that I would be brave enough.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

I wonder just how many gay footballers there are though. The often quoted estimation of how many people in a population are gay or bisexual is 1 in 10. I would be amazed if it is anywhere near that number in footballing circles.

Football is traditionally a very ''working mans'' game, with traditional values, which would deter many I feel from entering the game, for fear of persecution. As a young man, trying to decide in what direction to go in life, I think it would be very difficult to chose the professional footballer route if you perceive it to be a masculine, homophobic, red-blooded males sport, which is probably the image it has.

For that reason Id be surprised if there were many professional footballers in the closet, or waiting for an opportunity to come out

[the bristol nest 0]

Have you seen the Bristol Bisons Rugby Club?

http://www.bisonsrfc.co.uk/sites/default/files/bisj_0.jpg

[the bristol nest 0]

Terrifying.

[William Darby 0]

What is it with hetros and their fascination with wanting a gay to come out?  Seriously that''s half the problem though there shouldn''t be one.  Men wanting to know where other men put their penises.

I''m just interested in the football.

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]I wonder just how many gay footballers there are though. The often quoted estimation of how many people in a population are gay or bisexual is 1 in 10. I would be amazed if it is anywhere near that number in footballing circles.

Football is traditionally a very ''working mans'' game, with traditional values, which would deter many I feel from entering the game, for fear of persecution. As a young man, trying to decide in what direction to go in life, I think it would be very difficult to chose the professional footballer route if you perceive it to be a masculine, homophobic, red-blooded males sport, which is probably the image it has.

For that reason Id be surprised if there were many professional footballers in the closet, or waiting for an opportunity to come out[/quote]

I''ve said it a million times, it''s drivel like this that creates the problems.  If everybody just stopped pant wetting over somebody else''s sexuality.  There''s be no need to stereotype gays of having to come out.

For an instance, what actual difference would it make if the EDP did a full page spread on a city player who has decided to announce he''s gay? My thoughts would be, ''attention seeker get on with the football that you''re paid to do''.

[Zak Van Burger 0]

[quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"]What is it with hetros and their fascination with wanting a gay to come out?  Seriously that''s half the problem though there shouldn''t be one.  Men wanting to know where other men put their penises.

[/quote]I don''t honestly believe the average hetero gives a damn I think this entire nonsense about gays coming out being important is firmly rooted in the gay psyche.

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="Zak Van Burger"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"]What is it with hetros and their fascination with wanting a gay to come out?  Seriously that''s half the problem though there shouldn''t be one.  Men wanting to know where other men put their penises.

[/quote]I don''t honestly believe the average hetero gives a damn I think this entire nonsense about gays coming out being important is firmly rooted in the gay psyche.

[/quote]

Where ever it comes from. IMO we''ve moved on since the 20 odd years since Justin made his announcement.  And it shouldn''t matter either way what footballers do in their privates lives as long it''s legal.

[chicken 0]

I am pro the club stance and follow Stephen Fry on twitter.

However what I find slightly strange is this desire to have footballers announce they are gay. Players should be allowed to keep their private lives private if that is what they want.

As a fan I''m primarily interested in the football and performances on the pitch rather than in the bedroom. However if a player felt the need to come out to encourage the world to try and take a leap forward socially I''d be in full support. But the reality is Footy as we know it is far too commercial to deal with social issues properly and I understand why gay footballers may not feel safe/able to come out publicly.

[CDMullins 436]

[quote user="chicken"]I am pro the club stance and follow Stephen Fry on twitter.

However what I find slightly strange is this desire to have footballers announce they are gay. Players should be allowed to keep their private lives private if that is what they want.

As a fan I''m primarily interested in the football and performances on the pitch rather than in the bedroom. However if a player felt the need to come out to encourage the world to try and take a leap forward socially I''d be in full support. But the reality is Footy as we know it is far too commercial to deal with social issues properly and I understand why gay footballers may not feel safe/able to come out publicly.[/quote]This

[GenerationA47 747]

There seems to be a misunderstanding emerging that it''s about people wanting gay footballers to rub people''s noses in their private lives.

I presume it''s rather that they might like not to have to hide their partners, set up fake girlfriends, cover up part of their identities 24-7. That''s what pro footballers coming out would help change (as the equivalent did with wider society and changed attitudes - apart from some on here, apparently) and why it''s being encouraged.

I''d be proud of our club if we set a trend here, though wouldn''t personally want to see any of our players'' tadgers, that''s not what it''s about.

[the bristol nest 0]

[quote user="GenerationA47"]There seems to be a misunderstanding emerging that it''s about people wanting gay footballers to rub people''s noses in their private lives.

I presume it''s rather that they might like not to have to hide their partners, set up fake girlfriends, cover up part of their identities 24-7. That''s what pro footballers coming out would help change (as the equivalent did with wider society and changed attitudes - apart from some on here, apparently) and why it''s being encouraged.

I''d be proud of our club if we set a trend here, though wouldn''t personally want to see any of our players'' tadgers, that''s not what it''s about.[/quote]

This

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="GenerationA47"]There seems to be a misunderstanding emerging that it''s about people wanting gay footballers to rub people''s noses in their private lives.

I presume it''s rather that they might like not to have to hide their partners, set up fake girlfriends, cover up part of their identities 24-7. That''s what pro footballers coming out would help change (as the equivalent did with wider society and changed attitudes - apart from some on here, apparently) and why it''s being encouraged.

I''d be proud of our club if we set a trend here, though wouldn''t personally want to see any of our players'' tadgers, that''s not what it''s about.[/quote]

That''s so 1990s.  It''s a well know fact that gay footballers exist.  It''s just these days nobody wants to make a song and dance about it.  

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]I wonder just how many gay footballers there are though. The often quoted estimation of how many people in a population are gay or bisexual is 1 in 10. I would be amazed if it is anywhere near that number in footballing circles.

Football is traditionally a very ''working mans'' game, with traditional values, which would deter many I feel from entering the game, for fear of persecution. As a young man, trying to decide in what direction to go in life, I think it would be very difficult to chose the professional footballer route if you perceive it to be a masculine, homophobic, red-blooded males sport, which is probably the image it has.

For that reason Id be surprised if there were many professional footballers in the closet, or waiting for an opportunity to come out[/quote]

I agree with you in part, I''d be amazed if it were 1 in 10 in men''s football, and your reasons may ring true a little. The feminine stereotypical lardy da gay man is never going to be a footballer (Alan Carr), but there are plenty - probably a majority - of gay men who are masculine red-blooded male types. 

But in the real world there are plenty of builders and big weightlifter types who like to bat for the other team. Wouldn''t surprise me at all if there were an average of one player per team in this country who identifies as gay or bisexual. 

I don''t see what the obsession is with people wanting a player to come out in the belief that more will follow and attitudes will change, it could make them a figure of ridicule, Murdoch would probably hack their phone trying to catch them doing something untoward, the fans would drive the player out of the sport, in the wrong club the ''banter'' from teammates would become ''bullying''.

The best place for gay players is in the closet, because as much as I disagree with it - coming out would ruin their careers or at very least effect their performances and see them drop down the leagues.  Any player would get big respect from me for being brave enough to do it, but I don''t think it would be a wise decision. 

[Dubai Mark 0]

Why is that view from GenerationA47 "so 1990''s"?  If it was a well known fact gay footballers exist, then why do we not know of them, other than through rumour and gossip? ......and just why do they not come out?  For me, I really dont have a problem whether we see the "coming out" or not, as its down to their choice, but its the reasons why they dont that concerns me more and thats why GenerationA47''s view makes sense. 

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Dubai Mark"]

Why is that view from GenerationA47 "so 1990''s"?  If it was a well known fact gay footballers exist, then why do we not know of them, other than through rumour and gossip? ......and just why do they not come out?  For me, I really dont have a problem whether we see the "coming out" or not, as its down to their choice, but its the reasons why they dont that concerns me more and thats why GenerationA47''s view makes sense. 

[/quote]

There have been a few Premier League players say that they know of gay players in football. So I assume that footballers themselves protect gay footballers by keeping that knowledge to themselves, which is credit to them really and does suggest an attitude change.

There are plenty of footballers from the Eighties and Nineties who were openly homophobic who would say things like "I wouldn''t be able to play with a gay" etc etc.  We only have to see what happened to Justin Fashanu. I suspect things have moved on a little since then. 

The "reasons why they don''t" probably have less to do with teammates and bullying, people like Julian Dicks, Vinny Jones and Neil Ruddock don''t really exist anymore, and much more to do with the media and scum like Murdoch and the Daily Mail making their lives a 24/7 misery. As well as some groups of fans too, imagine going to Millwall or Leeds away as an openly gay footballer.

[Houston Canary 0]

The 1 in 10 number has been out there for ages but I never believed it was anything closr to that.

If it was, it would be reasonsble to assume there are a handful of gay Pinkun posters who frequent these thresds. I don''t recall anyone announcing their homosexuality here despite this topic appearing occasionally.

As for who would care about such a declaration by a current player, gay leaders would be thrilled by it. Recently an NBA and an MLS player have come out and the gay community was quite happy, or gay, about it. Most fellow players seemed quite uninterested, and the rare one with a negative reaction was attacked by the media.

Women''s sports is much more influenced by homosexuality and nobody seems to care much.

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Houston Canary"] Recently an NBA and an MLS player have come out and the gay community was quite happy, or gay, about it. Most fellow players seemed quite uninterested, and the rare one with a negative reaction was attacked by the media. [/quote]

Yeah but that MLS player felt that he had to quit English football in order to come out. Assuming you are talking about Robbie Rogers. 

Doesn''t help that his surname is ''Rogers'', a word which can imply something sexual in England but possibly not in America? 

[Bobert 0]

About a year ago the lower Brclay were chanting "Who''s the Wanker in the pink?" at the visiting fans. Well it might be just a bit of fun to the Lower Barclay but I think it''s rather nasty and it would not happen at a rugby match either Union or League. Don''t get me wrong the Rugby chums at Union with there sick sandwich making females and pretend scums in League have their problems too but Machio Soccer fans and argumentive players do rather spoil the national game.

I think that if the ruling class wants to be anti gay in Russia we should pull out of the "games". I personally do not care if we come 10th in the downhill whatnot and I am sure that 50 million of us Brits do not care either. I am a "liitle Englander" and care about my adopted Norwich and as long as we keep our noses clean that is good enough for me whatever we do.

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Bobert"]

About a year ago the lower Brclay were chanting "Who''s the Wanker in the pink?" at the visiting fans. Well it might be just a bit of fun to the Lower Barclay but I think it''s rather nasty and it would not happen at a rugby match either Union or League. Don''t get me wrong the Rugby chums at Union with there sick sandwich making females and pretend scums in League have their problems too but Machio Soccer fans and argumentive players do rather spoil the national game.

I think that if the ruling class wants to be anti gay in Russia we should pull out of the "games". I personally do not care if we come 10th in the downhill whatnot and I am sure that 50 million of us Brits do not care either. I am a "liitle Englander" and care about my adopted Norwich and as long as we keep our noses clean that is good enough for me whatever we do.

[/quote]

Rugby fans are certainly better behaved than football fans (sitting together etc), but Rugby players get away with murder in comparison with footballers. They don''t get put under the same scrutiny but Rugby players are worse than footy players. 

They don''t get as much criticism or media scrutiny because there is less jealousy over the money that they earn. Everybody knows that rugby players are seldom ''made for life'' when they retire, apart from a very select few, so they get judged by the same standards as everybody else in society. 

Footballers don''t get judged by the same standards as everybody else, they get hounded on and witch hunted for doing absolutely nothing, even by their own ''fans''. 

Rugby players can throw around midgets for a laugh whilst out on a bender, with two of them blatantly cheating on their partners, and they get about as much media attention as Sebastian Bassong does for posting a picture with a BB gun. 

Football is a gentleman''s game watched by thugs, and Rugby is a thugs game watched by gentlemen. 

[Warren Hill 0]

Football is a gentlemens game watched by thugs...

Speak for yourself. The generalisation isn''t even close to being the truth, though Maggie Thatcher probably would have agreed with you.

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Warren Hill"]Football is a gentlemens game watched by thugs...

Speak for yourself. The generalisation isn''t even close to being the truth, though Maggie Thatcher probably would have agreed with you.[/quote]

I am speaking for myself and I never implied otherwise. 

But surely it is clear to anybody that football has problems with hooliganism which rugby has largely avoided. 

[Warren Hill 0]

When was the last time you experienced "hooliganism" at a football match? If ever?

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Warren Hill"]When was the last time you experienced "hooliganism" at a football match? If ever?[/quote]

Leicester away, Wolves away, Millwall away, Sheffield United at home, Leeds at home, Ipswich home and away. Almost every week when I lived near Elland Road when at university.  

I think you are talking out of your japs eye. Football is becoming gentrified and CCTV and advances in policing have made things much better but if you can''t see the differences between football and rugby, particularly in the seventies, eighties and nineties, then I think it is you who has been living in a cave and not me! 

[Tetteys Jig 830]

Football is different in that has worldwide importance. I would suggest most people in the world know who David Beckham is or who Man U are. It isn''t the same for say Sale Sharks and Johnny Wilkinson. For that reason, the media interest is massive meaning it would be far harder for a gay premiership player to come out and there not be an overwhelming reaction. Interesting you have Dubai in your name Mark. Imagine RVP suddenly deciding he''s gay and proud? Man U could potentially lose billions of supporters from parts of the world you can be put to death for being gay. There is a way to go yet.

[Juggy 0]

Just last season we all saw Newcastle fans riot with one of them punching a police horse, so I really don''t understand your point here.

[ZLF 271]

Like several others have said I am only worried about performances on the pitch and am ambivalent about their sexuality.

 

However I do beleive all players should have the choice to be open about their sexuality but I do not think that players can do that without retribution from other players the media and fans who will make an issue out of it. As such it remains a problem.    As with the racism issue its bubbling underneath the surface just waiting to erupt - it probably needs to so it can settle. Being homosexual should elicit no reaction from another person than being heterosexual rather a reason for the haters to vent their ire. 

[ZLF 271]

As far as rugby and football are concerned the difference is huge.

 

Rugby fans from opposing team happily mingle - even at the Luton Norwich cup game the hatred towards a luton fan sat in the home section in the upper ability counts stand was shocking to witness,  and thats before the vile accepted xenobohia seen at most England national matches.    The under current of animosity in football is saddening;  features of which are inccreasingly & regularly displayed on this very forum 

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="The New Boy Le Juge"]Just last season we all saw Newcastle fans riot with one of them punching a police horse, so I really don''t understand your point here.[/quote]

this