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snake-eyes

Wellbeck MOM

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Why do people dislike Welbeck so much on here? Is it because he was perceived to have taken Grant Holt''s rightful place in previous England squads? He scored last night, and it is his poor scoring record which is often held up as the reason why people don''t rate him, and had a decent game overall. Given the right development he has all of the natural physical attributes you need to be a top class modern centre forward. Sure there are aspects of his game that require improvement but he''s only 23. I just don''t get the hate.

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People slagging welbeck off obviously don''t know the game. Granted, he was not in the game much first half, but second half he put on an excellent display. He scored, almost scored another with an excellent volley, held the ball up and ran the channels exceptionally well.

He caused the Scottish defence no end of problems. He plays well whenever he plays for England, he just doesn''t get enough game time for man united.

Townsend hasn''t always got it right, but this time for me he was spot on.

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That''s right Pabs clearly I don''t know the game! [*-)] Why didn''t England pick the ball up and run with it? [8-)]

 

I would have given MOM to Kenny Miller!

 

Great goal, excellent work rate and considering he only plays in a ''Tin Pot'' league these days, he made a lot of English players look decidely average.

 

Wellbeck played well but not for MOM in my opinion.  There were better performances out there for me. (Baines, Walcott)

 

I thought England were slightly fortunate to get the win.  Oh and I am English!

 

Snake

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I might be being really stupid here but doesn''t mom normally get awarded to a home team player?

I thought Wellbeck did very well. Especially considering he was playing pretty much in a wide left position. It was his movement and play that allowed Baines to get forward into good positions.

He had a good first half too, just England appeared a little reluctant to commit forwards at times.

I thought Rooney played well too despite some of the negativity he often gets.

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I don''t have a hatred for Wellbeck.

 

Maybe I am old fashioned, but I believe in earning a place in the National side by performances on the pitch throughout the season and not by reputation or which team you play for.

 

Wellbeck has talent, but I feel he is in the England side because he plays for Man Utd.  His form for them wasn''t that great, was it?  It was great to see Ricky Lambert get a shot last night and wow what an entrance!

 

Snake

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Welbeck was the best player on the pitch and has given many good performances for England recently - his record before last night was 6 goals from 6 shots.

 

Whilst it is important that international players are playing well for their clubs, there is also a lot to be said for keeping in the players that play well for England. There is obviously stiffer competition for places at Man U than England, but unless Hodgson can suddenly make Kagawa or Hernandez English Welbeck is the best option for the role he plays.

 

In the first half Welbeck was the only player moving to find space and prepared to collect the ball slightly deeper, without his movement defending for Scotland would have been easy. A well deserved MotM award for a high level of performance across the entire game, others like Walcott or Miller had good flashes only.

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As above, I can only vouch for my own opinion, but I dislike Welbeck in the same way I dislike Cleverly, simply because I think they are extremely average players who if they were playing for a different club wouldnt get anywhere near the national side, yet are automatic shoe-ins because they play for Man U.

Its not them I hate, Im sure theyre nice guys and try their hardest. Its what their inclusion represents that I hate.

When Capello got the England job, I thought it would be great for English football. An undoubted winner, tough disciplinarian who would enter the English game with a minimal base knowledge. I thought he would be a fresh set of eyes, and would have to populate his knowledge of the English playing pool with players currently on form, and not simply do what most previous England managers had done and pick players based on old Tottenham connections and who played at big clubs. I was so disappointed that Capello didnt work out.

The last thing we needed as his replacement was an FA ''yes'' man who would continue to pick exclusively from the big clubs and based on whether they were in the England fold already (ie previously played for the U19s and U21s) and been basically silver spooned and groomed for the role since playing in a big teams academy.

The England team needed a change in mentality - ie Pick players on form, who have earned their chance by performing week in week out. Not just picking players on the basis of their club, regardless of how they have played.

Welbeck scored ONE goal last season Rooney is not match fit. Neither should really have been in the team. Yet they are both the first names on the sheet along with Cleverley. Im pretty sure Wilshere hasnt had much game time either to warrant a call up.

This approach to the England team is what has turned my interest off in recent years. Its what meant that one of the most truly gifted players to ever grace the Premiership (Matt Le Tissier) only achieved something like 8 caps for England, after he was past his best, because he played for Southampton.

I absolutely hate club snobbery when it comes to national football. I remember Juninho played incredibly week in week out for Middlesbrough, but was consistently overlooked by Brazil. The moment he transferred to Atletico Madrid (and I mean before he had even played for them) he was in the squad.

It stinks.

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If Welbeck and Cleverly were in different teams everyone would be calling out for them to be in the England squad - they appear average in the Man U team because they are surrounded by other top class players.

 

Welbeck and Cleverly are both players who were used throughout the season in last year''s champions (by 11 points) you don''t play that many games under Fergie if you are average.

 

As for big club bias how would you explain someone like Carrick who has been constantly overlooked by England managers despite playing for a big club? The best players play for the best teams, simple as that.

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Welbeck was excellent last night. A constant threat both in the air and with the ball at his feet. I think he was one of maybe 3 England players who could have got MOM, along with Walcott and Baines. Getting games like this is vital for the development of the England team. He has an international goal record of over 1 in 3, which is pretty decent for a guy who isn''t playing as an out and out striker. Players like Welbeck aren''t the problem, it''s the likes of Defoe still making squads when fit that irk me most.

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

Welbeck and Cleverly are both players who were used throughout the season in last year''s champions (by 11 points) you don''t play that many games under Fergie if you are average.

 

[/quote]

Exactly.

 

Sir Alex picked Welbeck, Hodgson picks Welbeck and Moyes will pick him too. It''s bizarre how people on message boards like this seem to think they know better than people like that.

 

Of course players from the big clubs are likely be picked because the big clubs have the best players. Look at the likes of Spain or Germany. Their players play for the big clubs because that''s where the best players are generally found. No different to England.

 

With Welbeck in particular some people just don''t seem to understand football well enough to appreciate the massive contribution he makes for his club and country.

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Welbeck scored ONE goal last season. Lambert scored SEVENTEEN.

I know its not all about the goals but what kind of message does that send?

Grant Holt got upset for this exact reason. He deserved a chance and wasnt given one. He felt his form had justified a chance.

Some players never get an England look in and it stinks, yet other players are picked, even when they are well off the boil.

Micheal Owen was repeatedly included in England teams well after he was past his best based on previous form and reputation. Out came all the old cliches, ''Form is temporary, class is permenant''. And then after a few seasons of Owen being dross, the eyes finally opened and he was finally dropped.

Big clubs and reputation blinker opinions.

I think this issue will always split people, Im pretty sure plenty of people agree with the idea that the best players play for the best clubs and therefore should get picked, but there are plenty who will also feel that places should be earned on merit, and the same horses not backed every week regardless of form.

I would rather play a Lambert in a rich vein of form, than a Rooney badly off the boil. Pick Rooney when he''s doing the business, not just because he''s Rooney and he''s played well before.

Picking a top player regardeless of whether he is playing well or not just encourages complacency.

There''s just not enough competition for places in the England team because certain players know they will never get dropped because they are billy big b*ll*cks.

Yes Hart kept more clean sheets than anyone last season, but most would agree he looked very error-prone last season, a shadow of his former self, and he should have done better for the first goal. But is he sweating over his place? No. And thats what needs to change. If a player plays badly for his club he will get dropped, but not for England, because class is permanent and these guys are celebrities.

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Or maybe some of us are not sycophants to the so called ''Modern Game''!

 

It seems as though you post an opinion on here and suddenly you are attacked personally (by some) for not understanding the game enough as though their opinion is full of knowledge and experience that is above reproach?

 

It then becomes a p*ssing contest regarding why one knows more about the game than the other! You get such lines as:

 

I played semi-pro! I coach teams! I am mates with .....! etc etc.

 

Less of the personal attacks and lets debate like adults.

 

I don''t believe any player in the prem is average! FFS!

 

I do believe however that there are others who are more deserving and god forbid if they ever got the chance might even be better or deliver more than those who appear to be automatic selection at the moment.

 

But hey it''s only my opinion and it seems as though I am not worthy or qualified enough to have one!

 

Apologies if I have offended anyone and Bethnal, I have read many of your posts and agreed with a great deal of them. I respect your opinion and your arguments are well thought out.  Doesn''t mean I agree with all of it though. [:)]

 

Snake

 

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[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]Welbeck scored ONE goal last season. Lambert scored SEVENTEEN.[/quote]

 

Do Danny Welbeck and Ricky Lambert play the same role in a team? No.

 

If Hodgson wanted a player to act as a focal point, and be big and strong in the box he''ll pick Lambert (like he did). If he wants a player who is more mobile, able to come in off the wing or use his pace to move the full back away from the box he''ll use Welbeck.

 

Comparing Welbeck to Lambert is comparing apples to oranges, both are very different players and have completely different skill sets - you wouldn''t put Lambert out on the wing because he would be completely wasted and also absolutely no good at it.

 

Also, it is all well and good saying the players in the best form should be played, but you also need to construct a team, and by switching in and out the flavour of the month isn''t going to help the overall progress of the team, neither is constantly changing formation to suit those players. If international football was about a series of unconnected one off friendly games then you would have a point - but Hodgson is trying to create a team. Rooney wasn''t match fit last night, but Hodgson obviously wants him, Walcott and Welbeck to get use to playing alongside each other, as in the long run they are the three most talented England players in those positions.

 

Also you contradict yourself when you say Joe Hart should be dropped, he got the most clean sheets in the league, so surely he should be playing for England? If you are judging forward players by goals, surely you should judge ''keepers by clean sheets?

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[quote user="GJP"]

With Welbeck in particular some people just don''t seem to understand football well enough to appreciate the massive contribution he makes for his club and country.

[/quote]

This caused me to bite...

His massive contribution was 2 goals and one assist. For England he''s performed better statistically, he scored a cracker against Sweden, but the rest were friendlies or San Marino, it''s hardly a huge contribution. He had a decent game last night, but not a stand out star of the game, that said, I wouldn''t have wanted to pick a MoM and it being England on ITV, it had to be one of the goal scorers. Just wish Lambert had put another one away so by default they''d have picked him.

We said the same with Holty when he was banging them in against Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea. If you''re scoring comfortably more goals against the big teams than the Welbecks are scoring against the smaller ones, then surely that says a lot about who should be in the starting 11 for your country? Lambert is a classic example of this.

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.. also, can''t be sure about this, but wasn''t it Wellbeck dithering around and being slow to the tackle that lead to the scottish second goal.I think he is a good player, but he struggles to find his best position. He wasn''t the best player on the pitch last night - that was probably Baines IMO.

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[quote user="Norwich MP"][quote user="GJP"]

With Welbeck in particular some people just don''t seem to understand football well enough to appreciate the massive contribution he makes for his club and country.

[/quote] This caused me to bite... His massive contribution was 2 goals and one assist. . [/quote]

Exactly my point.

 

You''re only seeing the stats columns for goals and assists. You''re not looking at what he does on the pitch to the help his team with and without the ball.

 

Welbeck is what people would call an "unsung hero". He is great at protecting/keeping the ball. If he picks the ball up deep he has the pace to carry it forward to relieve pressure and start counter attacks. If the ball is played forward he can hold it up and bring others into play or he can run in behind and stretch a defence.

 

Just look at the ground he covers, where he picks up the ball and then plays an easy ball into someone else. He''s great at linking up play all over the pitch. He does a lot of unselfish work for the good of the team. He gives the team so many more options because of his mobility and willingness to offer his colleagues an outlet.

 

Yes, it''d be nice if he could score more goals (same with any player on the pitch) but he''s a really important player for what else he does. Which is recognised by the people who pick the Man Utd team and the England team even if it can''t be recognised by fans and people on forums.

 

 

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God lord ,it''s seems as though if you don''t like or rate Welbeck you know nothing about football and do not have a right to put across your opinion on this board.Long live the freedom of speech and opinions.

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If he''s not on the pitch to score goals then who is?

He''s an attacking forward, you would expect him to score or create goals and it''s on that basis they should make the team selection.

Statistically, there are better players than him who should be considered in that role for their country. I don''t care whether his club play him or not.

Fans and people on forums generally recognise that Welbeck is a good player who contributes somewhat, however equally appreciate the players outside the top teams who perform better and contribute more to their team more at the same level of football and wonder why they don''t get called up. Lambert proving we may have point.

I am of course assuming the role of "fans and people on forums" representative, as you''ve implied we''re slightly different to you.

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