Pressing

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="snake-eyes"]Nutty, to be fair the OP''s statements are not unreasonable. l felt that when we pressed we caused them problems and it eventually led to our first goal. However we then backed off as last year and let them back in it. They never really looked like scoring until they equalised. You have to press against teams who like to keep possession! Snake[/quote]

 

I don''t agree with the up and at ''em style that many fans hanker for. It''s ok in the lower leagues but can be costly in this league. John Bond sometimes used to set us out to close down certain players. In a side who rely on certain players to make them tick this used to be a good tactic. He employed it at the City ground the day Machin got his hat-trick. Everton don''t fall into the category though. They are a good side and also a side Hughton has yet to lose to. He must be doing something right.

 

I hope we don''t change too much at Hull. There may be a case for closing down certain players but I don''t know their strengths. I strongly suggest we treat them with the utmost respect though.

 

Snake... can you send me your email address to canaryeddie@aol.com

 

 

 

 

[BOO 0]

I thought the team we had out did as much as they could against a very good Everton team.

[can u sit down please 0]

It''s ok in the lower leagues......

The barca model, Swansea, Munich, in fact most top flight teams apply pressure to the opposition.

[Phillip J Fry 0]

Ah, the old pressing vs shape debate! One of the more interesting tactical disagreements, In my opinion. There are several advantages to pressing, mainly that you win the ball higher up pitch, allowing you more possession in the opponents half. The problem with extreme pressing is that it can lead to gaps in your defensive shape, which a good team can then exploit. Hughton has always come across as a ''shape'' man, with his players retreating into a disciplined defensive shape and only pressing the man in possession when he enters your zone. This isn''t necessarily a negative move, although it is far less proactive than a pressing ideology. I think the issue many are forgetting here is that Everton are now a Martinez team, and are incredibly skilled on the ball. Pressing a side so comfortable and skilled in possession is not always the best idea. 

A good example of this is Graham Taylor''s Watford. Whilst they maybe remembered mainly for their direct play, an oft forgotten fact is how high and agressive their pressing was. Watford would often press with two , or even three, players against the man in possession in all areas of the pitch. This was incredibly effective against sides that weren''t comfortable in possession as they would either clear the ball (giving possession back to Watford) or be dispossed in a dangerous area. However, against one European side (I can''t remember who, although I think they were from Eastern Europe) the failings of the high press were exposed. This side were incredibly comfortable on the ball, easily able to out-pass the pressing of the Watford side and expose the gaps in shape Watford''s pressing left. Watford lost that match 5 nil, and proved that agressive pressing isn''t always the correct decision. 

If Norwich pressed against Everton there was a good (although by no means certain) chance that Everton would be able to deal with it and exploit the gaps left by the pressing. Fellaini, Osman and Barkley are all good midfielders, comfortable with the ball and able to deal with the pressing of opponents and then play the pass to hurt you. I can see why Hughton''s decided to not press and sit deep, fearful of the outcome of doing so.

That being said, I do think that Hoolahan (who often moved up when out of possession to become a second striker) and Wolfswinkel could''ve done more to press the ball when Everton''s defenders were in possession, neither Jagielka or Distin are the most comfortable in possession and would''ve struggled to deal with both Wolfswinkel and Hoolahan pressing them. I think this would''ve been a low-risk decision with potentially high pay offs.

TL;DR: The midfield and defence were right to sit deep but the two forward players probably should''ve pressed Everton''s back four more aggresively.     

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Ahhhh Swanselona[Y] So it''s just us then.

 

We did press the ball all game in certain areas CUSDP. For 90 mins. Further up the pitch we tried to take away options instead. But no other side does that apparently....

 

In your dreams buddy[S]

 

 

[walks on water 0]

Can someone please explain to me what is desirable/the point/progressive/positive about the man on the ball having no options to pass to

[nutty nigel 7,528]

I''ll leave that one with CUSDP [;)]

 

 

[snake-eyes 13]

I don''t like surrendering so much possession and territory,

You invite so much pressure on yourself and we are not that good defensively to be able to absorb it all the time.

That does not mean l want our guys running around like idiots and your ''up and '' at''em'' suggestion, but pressing the ball means less pressure on your own defense, greater chance of gaining possession, possession in more dangerous areas and more aattacking threat.

Defending begins at the front!

[BOO 0]

Interesting post Phillip.

[can u sit down please 0]

Where were we pressing nige?

You couldmsaynhad we have pressed a bit sooner, Barkley wouldn''t have possibly scored.

Football is easier with time on the ball. Nobody can deny that.

[can u sit down please 0]

Leave it with me nige?

No go in, I''ll let you. Or are you stumped?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

I think it''s what people like to see. I''ve got no idea whether we would have got 3, 1 or 0 points had we pressed. Nobody has. But pressing the ball all over the pitch lifts the crowd. However nothing deflates the crowd more than losing games and conceding goals.

 

Hughton plays it his way and his results don''t suggest he''s wrong.

 

 

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="Vanwink"]Interesting post Phillip.[/quote]

 

What do you think winky?

 

 

[can u sit down please 0]

We actually pressed late on against Everton last year and gained a result with almost the same players playing on both teams.

Anyway, great debate, great views, keep it up!

[can u sit down please 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Vanwink"]Interesting post Phillip.[/quote]

 

What do you think winky?

 

 

[/quote]

Nige the facilitator.

[Warren Hill 0]

It''s difficult to criticise Saturday. Everton certainly enjoyed some periods of possession which were to the obvious annoyance of some of those around me in the ground, the opening few minutes especially. However, during that spell they created little of note and while their pass success and possession stats were steadily climbing, the possession they were enjoying wasn''t particularly threatening. From that end we seemed happy enough for them to have a little run around and plenty of the ball - to me it looked like they were trying to draw us out, force us to press higher up the pitch in order to create space between the midfield and the back four to allow Pienaar and Barkley to operate in more dangerous areas. We held our discipline and our line and in all likelihood caused a fair amount of frustration to Everton.

With regard to their equaliser, the disappointing thing for me was how easily Fellaini managed to return the ball to the thrower. From there we pushed the player away from goal, he fed Barkley centrally who in fairness produced a screamer. Teams score good goals sometimes, this was one of them.

Overall I was satisfied with the way we played and the result, I can''t help but think if we''d pressed higher with the personnel we had out there, Everton had enough quality in midfield to really start pulling us around, Barkley was exceptional and has a massive future, Fellaini is a monster, Pienaar is a clever player and Osman is underrated - add to that the ample support from Baines and Coleman on the flanks and all in all I think we did well. We gave the aforementioned full backs plenty to occupy them defensively with Redmond and Bennett having decent games and our own full backs getting forward too.

I think we understand that there will be periods of the game that we don''t have the ball and that retaining our discipline and sometimes even WAITING for the mistake while conserving energy can reap rewards. It very nearly did when Garrido stepped in to intercept a loose pass, moved into the midfield and slotted a lovely little ball through for RVW only for the flag to go up.

Like I said, I''m happy enough with how we played Saturday, Everton are a decent side. There will certainly be games where we do press the ball more than we did this weekend, Bury in the cup will probably be one of them!!!

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="can u sit down please"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Vanwink"]Interesting post Phillip.[/quote]

 

What do you think winky?

 

 

[/quote] Nige the facilitator.[/quote]

 

I was just interested. Winky''s always popping at people on these threads but never seems to have an opinion...

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,528]

But was Barkley really their best player or did we perhaps underestimate him and allow him to be on the day. It''s interesting that for many Redmond was our best player but Everton didn''t let him prove that anywhere where they could be really hurt.

 

 

 

 

[BOO 0]

Nigel, Have you been drinking or do you just have problems with comprehension?

You have already apologised to me once on this thread?

[Warren Hill 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]But was Barkley really their best player or did we perhaps underestimate him and allow him to be on the day. It''s interesting that for many Redmond was our best player but Everton didn''t let him prove that anywhere where they could be really hurt.[/quote]

On the day, I thought he was their best player. Did we allow that? Maybe a little bit, we certainly didn''t work out that when he opened his body as if to play the ball to the right flank he inariably seemed to then knock the ball inside to Jelavic centrally and then moving into the created space looking to shoot.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="Vanwink"]Nigel, Have you been drinking or do you just have problems with comprehension? You have already apologised to me once on this thread?[/quote]

 

I know.. can''t drink though.. just as well cuz CUSDP isn''t buying me one anyway...

 

So what do you think about Philip''s points?

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,528]

We dealt with Barkley better in the second half but thinking about it that may have coincided with Mirallas departing.

 

 

[Tetteys Jig 830]

There were a couple of times at 2-2 that even though Everton looked the more likely to score, they had lapses in defence and we broke but didn''t have the quality to force a chance. A better link up man and a big fully fit Leroy fer would have made all the difference.

[BOO 0]

Do you really think I am going to put my hand up if you fart?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="Vanwink"]Do you really think I am going to put my hand up if you fart?[/quote]

 

Pull my finger...

 

 

[Monty13 2,231]

Really good post Phillip, agree with pretty much everything you said very good analysis.

I thought when we did press high at times Everton mostly seemed to deal with it very comfortably so why waste the energy?

The other factor in the possession stats was that when we had the ball we were often trying to move it very quickly forward and this was always going to result with us having less possession overall.

[splutcho 173]

I''m a bit dubious when crowds demand high pressing and quick closing down when your team is playing a good passing side. I remember a couple of seasons ago, Wolves had just gone 1-0 down to Swansea at home, and had stood off them and let them have the ball on the half way line where they pretty much passed it side to side.

With the crowd desperate for an equaliser they screamed at the players to close them down and as soon as they gave in and moved to do so, they left enough space in behind for Swansea to put a simple ball over the top for 2-0. Sometimes it''s better to sit back.

The goal can be seen here - http://www.wawsport.com/english-premier-league-2012-wolves-2-2-swansea-video_dcf74026d.html#sthash.49Mr2MnR.dpbs

Though it doesn''t show all of what I''m talking about you can see what I mean.

[chicken 0]

I am a bit confused. All teams press. Its not a question of pressing or not but where they draw the line along the length of the pitch that they start pressing from.

If you get your shape and team positioning sorted first then long balls over the top are less of an option. Space closer to your own goal will be greatly reduced making it harder for a team to advance.

It is worth mentioning that even like this a team will press, it might not be until the opposition cross the halfway line.

The other thing to remember is personel. Jagielka and Distin are not the fastest. Our almost forced line up featured Bennett, Redmond, RVW and Howson who have all shown they have good pace. If you press too high when you win the ball you will be forved to either play infront of their defence or play it back to try and suck the opposition out to create more space for pacey players to exploit.

The manager has to deploy what he thinks are the best options available to him in regards to players available for selection and how the opposition play.

Sadly for us I think we drew the short straw with Everton. Fellaini and Baines are big players for them. Later in the season and without those players I think they''ll be a lesser side.

I also think Fer and Snodgrass alone would have made a difference along with Bassong. On top of that I felt towards the end we could have done with subs who''d have more of an impact. Someone like Hooper could have taken advantage of tired legs not to mention Pilkington.

[FenwayFrank 2,458]

So do we press on Saturday or let Hull have the ball until they''re 30 yards away from our goal ? I think most of us would expect a higher pressing game from our lads. Get the ball off them as quickly as we can so we have the possession is what I think. Saturday will give us a far better idea of whether Hughton has really changed his approach in any way.

[Rock The Boat 1,329]

[quote user="Warren Hill"]It''s difficult to criticise Saturday. Everton certainly enjoyed some periods of possession which were to the obvious annoyance of some of those around me in the ground, the opening few minutes especially. However, during that spell they created little of note and while their pass success and possession stats were steadily climbing, the possession they were enjoying wasn''t particularly threatening. From that end we seemed happy enough for them to have a little run around and plenty of the ball - to me it looked like they were trying to draw us out, force us to press higher up the pitch in order to create space between the midfield and the back four to allow Pienaar and Barkley to operate in more dangerous areas. We held our discipline and our line and in all likelihood caused a fair amount of frustration to Everton.

With regard to their equaliser, the disappointing thing for me was how easily Fellaini managed to return the ball to the thrower. From there we pushed the player away from goal, he fed Barkley centrally who in fairness produced a screamer. Teams score good goals sometimes, this was one of them.

Overall I was satisfied with the way we played and the result, I can''t help but think if we''d pressed higher with the personnel we had out there, Everton had enough quality in midfield to really start pulling us around, Barkley was exceptional and has a massive future, Fellaini is a monster, Pienaar is a clever player and Osman is underrated - add to that the ample support from Baines and Coleman on the flanks and all in all I think we did well. We gave the aforementioned full backs plenty to occupy them defensively with Redmond and Bennett having decent games and our own full backs getting forward too.

I think we understand that there will be periods of the game that we don''t have the ball and that retaining our discipline and sometimes even WAITING for the mistake while conserving energy can reap rewards. It very nearly did when Garrido stepped in to intercept a loose pass, moved into the midfield and slotted a lovely little ball through for RVW only for the flag to go up.

Like I said, I''m happy enough with how we played Saturday, Everton are a decent side. There will certainly be games where we do press the ball more than we did this weekend, Bury in the cup will probably be one of them!!![/quote]

This post, along with Philip and Lavanche''s posts are excellent summaries.

This is about playing grown-up football. Keeping your shape, pulling the opposition into areas of the pitch that you want them to go, waiting patiently for them to leave space behind them and when they make a mistake, then you pounce, and make your attack.

The day you see RVW charging down defenders all across the backline is the day the Hughton has lost the plot. It won''t happen. Hughton plays intelligent football. Last season he didn''t have the resources to make it happen the way he wanted because he had inherited

a squad put together for an ''up and at em'' approach. Even so, he made a pretty good job of it looking across the whole of the season.

This year, he has brought in players much better suited to the intelligent way of playing football, and we should hope to see that paying off in dividends this season.

Perhaps some fans need to be educated in this new style of play. Comparing what we are trying to achieve now with what we achieved two or three seasons ago is like comparing apples with oranges. They are not the same thing.

I remember a conversation I had with a Dutch football fan many years ago. He told me way back then that the way to defeat English teams was to withstand the first twenty minute onslaught. Our style was a physical high-tempo pressing game in the last third of the pitch.

If you could survive that then as the English team tired and chased balls all over the park then you could exploit the gaps that appeared.

It seems that good young coaches such as Hughton have learnt the lesson that the continental teams understood for a long time already. That you play as a unit, you play with patience and you play with intelligence.