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lake district canary

Playing as an organised unit is not defensive!

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Several threads on here still  mithering on about "defensive football" and even one suggesting we change manager.    For once and all, having an organised team playing from the back IS NOT DEFENSIVE!!!   It is what it says on the tin.  It is ORGANISED. 

The teams we had that were great in the past had a great understanding and attacked and defended as a unit - they were organised.  That is exactly what Hughton demands.   We are upping the stakes, the team is moving in a direction that will enable this - we''ve seen it, we know it works and we are getting the players to make it work better.     Lambert was different and used more motivational skills to get lesser players to perform above their perceived level - that suited us at the time and the likes of Grant Holt - attack and go for it - but we know that in the premiership that only works so far.     We are moving into a grown up world of  football where the demands on the players is greater than on  the kind of players we have had up to now.   Better players and better team organisation.   Last season was a mixed bag - but on the whole it was successful.   Ultimately, its down to the players to be up to the standards that are required for the way we need to play to stay at the top level.   We should be grateful we have a manager of such stature and belief in himself that he will stick to his guns and bring us the high quality football we want to see.  Most of us know it.

I''m not knocking people who are  discussing tactics and formations.  Mainly I''m getting at the people who don''t seem top be able to see beyond the end of their noses at what the club and Hughton is doing.   Hughton is not a defensive manager.   He demands the defence be organised, that is all.   Defend with quality, give the ball to a quality midfield who can pass the ball on to the quality attack force.  We are on track.    Are you people I''m talking to just impatient, or is it something else?  

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We do sit far too dee and allow other teams to play through to the last third far too much. But what is good this year we have options to counter with pace! so we can turn defence into attack very quick.

 

We can also cahnge it up and play though the midfield too as shown in parts Saturday.

 

We are set up a little negative, wheather you can blame the manager for that or the players is another thing, as this system should allow any team playing it to look very attack minded with a quick counter, but we must be careful not to play the hoofball to often.

 

 

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The two terms are not mutually exclusive, of course.

 

The "two lines of four" has become something of a mantra, and given perhaps its greatest example by Roy Hodson, but it is practiced by most teams. If played well it can be very effective.

Traditionally a match was fought out between two midfields, the winners taking on an exposed back four, but modern football is much more fluid. We now have wing backs - Baines, Cole, Walker, being outstanding. This can overrun or by-pass the midfield, especially if the wing backs have pace.

 

I suggest that while we tried the system on Saturday, and almost certainly will again, it was dictated by two factors - firstly that we lacked Bassong and Fer, and secondly that they had two very attacking full backs, quite apart from other excellent players. We managed to keep control of Baines very largely, probably because Bennett is well practiced at tackling back and because there was the threat of Whittaker going forward. We failed down our left because Redmond lacks defensive qualities and Garrido was left exposed too often. One Everton goal came from an attack down their right, while the other was scored by their right back who was well into our penalty area!

 

If in the future, with Fer and Bassong playing, we can convert proportionately nearly ss many chances (i.e. two from two on Saturday), we shall prove a formidable side. If we can put away our chances better than ever before, then I for one will be very pleased if our defence is well organised.

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Good post LDC, I trust that you put on your tin hat before you posted.

I agree with what you are saying and whilst I like others got a little frustrated at times last season, I understood what was happening and that it was a means to an end, it worked. I really do believe that had we played in the same manner last season as the season before we would now be in The Chumpionship.

It is clear already following pre season and the Everton game that our set up this season will once again mostly be based on organisation and limited risk taking.... BUT with more attacking options and flair when required, which considering the talent we now have will give us a more offensive and clinical edge, hopefully resulting in more wins.

Its still evolving as far as I can see, and with this squad I am expecting there to be times when a little more risk is taken and we "go for it" in a more offensive manner......but, that will only be when the circumstances dictate it.

This league is tough, really tough and we want to stay in it for as long as possible and if possible avoid being a yo-yo club and as far as I can see we are on the right track and have some more good times coming our way...........it isnt going to be pretty all the time though!    

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[quote user="Dubai Mark"]Good post LDC, I trust that you put on your tin hat before you posted. I agree with what you are saying and whilst I like others got a little frustrated at times last season, I understood what was happening and that it was a means to an end, it worked. I really do believe that had we played in the same manner last season as the season before we would now be in The Chumpionship.It is clear already following pre season and the Everton game that our set up this season will once again mostly be based on organisation and limited risk taking.... BUT with more attacking options and flair when required, which considering the talent we now have will give us a more offensive and clinical edge, hopefully resulting in more wins.Its still evolving as far as I can see, and with this squad I am expecting there to be times when a little more risk is taken and we "go for it" in a more offensive manner......but, that will only be when the circumstances dictate it.This league is tough, really tough and we want to stay in it for as long as possible and if possible avoid being a yo-yo club and as far as I can see we are on the right track and have some more good times coming our way...........it isnt going to be pretty all the time though!    [/quote]

Agreed, DM - and tin hat is on!  It still amazes me that people have to put negatives to everything they see, without seeing  a bigger picture as well.  But no, the mantra is - "Hooton = defensive" - which flies in the face of what Hughton is working to achieve.    Development, improved players, better midfield and attack to build on the groundwork of last season is what is happening, but we get a constant drip drip  drip effect of people telling us that Hughton is purely a defensive manager.      He isn''t,  he just requires that the defensive side of the team be organised - and there is nothing wrong with that.  With the defence good, the onus is on the rest of the team to take advantage of that.  That is the development that we will see this season imo.  

I don''t think the doubters will go away, but I wonder with one or two of them if their prejudice is more against the man than his managing ability.  

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I also agree. I smile to myself when I read people''s posts saying we are defensive this and negative that, would people prefer us to be completely gung-ho with our approach and ignore the basics of protecting the goal.

I coach kids and the one thing that I coach my team to do is to be hard to beat, does that make it boring, negative and defensive, no it makes us organised, well drilled and hard to beat. Doesn''t always work as some times you play teams better or you get beaten by the better team on the day, that''s football!!

If being organised and structured means that teams find it hard to break us down and score then surely that has to be the first aim, after that we need to make use of the ball when we have it, which we were probably 50/50 with, we scored a couple if good goals but in some aspects we gave it away cheaply and that then means we are defending again and allowing pressure on the defence.

All of that said, I think going forward on Saturday we finally had an outlet, not only with Ricky VW but also Redmond, something we struggled with last year.

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[quote user="Morison Prozac"]We certainly didn''t hoof it Saturday, we passed it out from the back most of the time.[/quote]It baffles me when peole say we hoofed it saturday!

If anything we tried to keep on the floor a bit too much!

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The difference between this season and last for me is that when we were attacking last season you''d often find that Holt was the only player in the box. This year (this has been evident in pre-season and on Sat) we often see three, four or even five in or around the box. It''s a change in attitude for me. Also good to hear Hughton talk about be need or better service for the Wolf.

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I agree LDC. It''s not ''defensive'' to have a disciplined shape. Hughton has clearly been working on our shape and it''s incredible how quickly the players can respond without the ball. The defenders quickly organize themselves into a line that will catch any attempted runs in behind offside, the midfield are 10-15 yards ahead and are also in line, they push forward to put pressure on the man who has the ball when he enters their zone. One thing I will mention is that I was annoyed by our attackers in the defensive stage. They should either be pressing the defence or pushing up high to cut off the easy pass into midfield from the defence, but this is a relatively minor complaint and something that can be easily rectified. There''s also obviously been a change in tactics when we get the ball, as we try to break down the wings quickly. We attempted 20 crosses on Saturday with minimal possession, indicating how we try to use the flanks during breakaways. I suspect this will only increase with possession.  

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It should be noted that it is also possible to be a ''organised unit'' that is defensively sound by defending high up the pitch and pressing the opposition in their own half. Thats very different from how we played against Everton, but is one of numerous different styles that can be equally organised and effective. Last year Bayern used similar tactics and had a ridiculously good defensive record by defending higher up the pitch and pressing quickly. Their keeper often hardly had a touch and you rarely saw them as a team seeking the sanctuary of their 18 yard line. Of course how you play should really be decided the players you have (also who your playing against and how the game is poised). As others have mentioned this year we actually have a little more pace in the side to take advantage of the counter attacking opportunities that defending deep can bring. Last year, not so much - Holt, Hoolahan, Snodgrass and Pilkington is not your classically potent counter attacking quartet. Whether or not those were the right tactics to deploy against Everton is a whole nother issue.

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I think you are in trouble if you try and defend with a high line when your defence lacks real pace. I also think you are crazy if you try and play a quick, sharp passing game with Johnson, Howson and Wes in the spine. We don''t have the players to play that kind of game. We certainly aren''t Bayern Munich quality just yet!

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I just think some people have never gotten over our previous manager leaving and being replaced by CH.

We were previously spoilt by near constant all out attack. Since that changed a lot of dummies have been spat out, and some of them haven''t been picked up yet and reinserted. They feel entitled to watch football in a style of their choosing, instead of realising that football is a results business, and the style in which those results are achieved is largely irrelevant.

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It was very boring LDC and very much like the games we played last season. Different players perhaps but same style. That points to the Manager or the Coach. We were lucky to win. Two fine individual stops by our boys and a couple of fluke goals by us means we could have lost 4-0 and all the crap written about defensive or organised football would have been shown up for what it is. I don''t know if you came to the game LDC but apart from a few kids brought up in the last year or so I belive there must have been 22,000 Norwich fans who, although glad of the money Hughton has earned for the Club, must have been wishing he and his staff were not at Carrow. Most of the game Everton looked to be the winning side and their supporters knew how, and most definately when, to sing. 

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We didn''t win. RVW''s header was fantastic even if the cross was lucky. Whits final strike was top class even if he had a bit of luck getting there.

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[quote user="Bobert"]It was very boring LDC and very much like the games we played last season. Different players perhaps but same style. That points to the Manager or the Coach. We were lucky to win. Two fine individual stops by our boys and a couple of fluke goals by us means we could have lost 4-0 and all the crap written about defensive or organised football would have been shown up for what it is. I don''t know if you came to the game LDC but apart from a few kids brought up in the last year or so I belive there must have been 22,000 Norwich fans who, although glad of the money Hughton has earned for the Club, must have been wishing he and his staff were not at Carrow. Most of the game Everton looked to be the winning side and their supporters knew how, and most definately when, to sing[/quote]

Were you at the match?  It certainly wasn''t boring.    The manager''s style won''t change - the players will get better at implementing it and the upgrades we have been getting will show us that a Hughton side at it''s best is organised and good in all areas of the pitch.   Whittaker''s goal was brilliant - those that talk of richochets will presumably say it was flukey, but  his persistence and composure on the ball - twice, for the first shot and then the rebound off the post- was excellent.   The second goal was a class header, no more to be said  - the ball was spinning viciously and yet RVW made the finish look easy.       Everton indeed looked  good - they are a class act - yet we earned a creditable draw - and showing signs of improvement in all areas. 

As for 22,000 Norwich fans there on Saturday - of which I was one -  I would be very surprised if more than a handful don''t want CH.as manager. As for all the arguments about being defensive - yes we should be organised in defence - and we are - but the proof of Hughton''s success will be in how he improves the midfield and attack.  I have complete belief that Hughton wants and is working towards us to being a balanced and fluid team - good in defence, good in possession in midfield and with plenty of options up front. 

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[quote user="lake district canary"], having an organised team playing from the back IS NOT DEFENSIVE!!!   It is what it says on the tin.  It is ORGANISED.  [/quote]

agreedits pretty boring though ;)

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Sitting back so deep and lettting teams come at us, AT HOME, the way we have done since hughton took over is disgraceful. The amount of times we were dominated in terms of possesion last season was embarrasing. Regardless of who was injured, the everton game shows nothing has changed in terms of our style and approach. We may have upgraded in terms of players, now we to upgrade our management and coaching staff.

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--- Flecky''s Flip-Flop wrote: Have you got a link to those stats CJF? I''ve been trying to find some detailed ones with no real joy.

Click on Pass Types under Premier League Situational Statistics. You''ll need a calculator!

http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/3853/Stages/7794/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2013-2014

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]--- Flecky''s Flip-Flop wrote: Have you got a link to those stats CJF? I''ve been trying to find some detailed ones with no real joy.

Click on Pass Types under Premier League Situational Statistics. You''ll need a calculator!

http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/3853/Stages/7794/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2013-2014[/quote]

Ye gods!  Statistics gone mad.  Ok.  So we were: 4th in the league for "through balls per game"  - Sounds good.10th in the league for "cross balls per game"    - not bad7th in the league for  "long balls per game"        - not that bad20th in the league for "short balls per game"     - not good.

But because we were ok in the top three areas, all that proves is that there is not enough short ball passes going on in midfield,  it certainly doesn''t prove we play hoof ball.     Dissecting that into further irrelevant percentages is meaningless. 

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[quote user="jossacklandsspunkybackpack"]Sitting back so deep and lettting teams come at us, AT HOME, the way we have done since hughton took over is disgraceful. The amount of times we were dominated in terms of possesion last season was embarrasing. Regardless of who was injured, the everton game shows nothing has changed in terms of our style and approach. We may have upgraded in terms of players, now we to upgrade our management and coaching staff.[/quote]you''ve never played or coached to any standard have you?

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Seems to me LDC that writing nearly 1,500 posts in 2 years ( that''s about 5 a day every day) you are becoming a bit of a bore yourself. Perhaps you need another interest.

Yes I was at the game. I have been to most of them over the last 40 years.

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[quote user="Bobert"]

Seems to me LDC that writing nearly 1,500 posts in 2 years ( that''s about 5 a day every day) you are becoming a bit of a bore yourself. Perhaps you need another interest.

Yes I was at the game. I have been to most of them over the last 40 years.

[/quote]

5 a day is supposed to be good for you..............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-uX6N4RZjg

Happy eating!

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