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nutty nigel

Rumblings of discontent..

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They weren''t debates that I was involved in were they Nutty?

If you want my opinion then by all means I''ll give it. Whether Martin or Whittaker is the preferred option at RB would depend on the the opposition we are playing and the system we intend to play, if we''re looking to get at Palace at home then I''d play Whittaker, if we''re looking to keep it tight away at Chelsea then I might go with Martin. I don''t think it''s as simple as who has the shirt keeps it until they have a few bad games, it''s a squad game afterall these days, although admittedly there is something to be said for a settled back 4, just my opinion.

The form in the 2nd half of last season is mentioned because that is our most recent (or current) form. It''s as simple as that really. It''s not ignoring the achievement of what has gone before, but should that form carry over into this season then it would give cause for concern. There were plenty of signs in that Everton game that it won''t, hopefully when we''re back at full strength we can show a little more quality on the ball, especially at home.

I really think you''re getting the wrong end of the stick here Nutty, Hughton has been backed to a massive degree by the club and 99.99% of fans are right behing him and the players. Analysing our performances and looking at the areas we can improve alongside the areas we are strong doesn''t mean people have this anti-Hughton agenda, are discontented or anything else, it just means that people want us to be the best we can, something I''m sure we can all agree on?

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[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]They weren''t debates that I was involved in were they Nutty? If you want my opinion then by all means I''ll give it. Whether Martin or Whittaker is the preferred option at RB would depend on the the opposition we are playing and the system we intend to play, if we''re looking to get at Palace at home then I''d play Whittaker, if we''re looking to keep it tight away at Chelsea then I might go with Martin. I don''t think it''s as simple as who has the shirt keeps it until they have a few bad games, it''s a squad game afterall these days, although admittedly there is something to be said for a settled back 4, just my opinion. The form in the 2nd half of last season is mentioned because that is our most recent (or current) form. It''s as simple as that really. It''s not ignoring the achievement of what has gone before, but should that form carry over into this season then it would give cause for concern. There were plenty of signs in that Everton game that it won''t, hopefully when we''re back at full strength we can show a little more quality on the ball, especially at home. I really think you''re getting the wrong end of the stick here Nutty, Hughton has been backed to a massive degree by the club and 99.99% of fans are right behing him and the players. Analysing our performances and looking at the areas we can improve alongside the areas we are strong doesn''t mean people have this anti-Hughton agenda, are discontented or anything else, it just means that people want us to be the best we can, something I''m sure we can all agree on?[/quote]

 

Sorry Brownie, comments like "It''s a replay of last season", "so far no lessons learnt", "same old negative football", "same old negative subs" "It will be interesting if we retain the Barcelona as opposition approach at Hull next week" "Bassong will no doubt be in for him. Will hughton dare play an attacking full back when he could have the more conservative Martin?" are certainly not about being behind the manager, quite the opposite in fact. They are also not about looking to improve. Are they? Be honest.

 

The point I made about the second half of the season was in reply to Indy saying "I don''t want to watch the football we were dished up after Christmas last year!" Now each to their own but I listed 9 games from those that I''d quite happily see again. Have you an opinion on those games? Or don''t you want to watch that quality of football again either?

 

 

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-- nutty nigel wrote: Sorry Brownie, comments like "It''s a replay of last season", "so far no lessons learnt", "same old negative football", "same old negative subs" "It will be interesting if we retain the Barcelona as opposition approach at Hull next week" "Bassong will no doubt be in for him. Will hughton dare play an attacking full back when he could have the more conservative Martin?" are certainly not about being behind the manager, quite the opposite in fact. They are also not about looking to improve. Are they? Be honest.

That depends on your viewpoint. I would say YES they can be about looking to improve. Just sitting and accepting that every decision the manager makes is the right one is an act of faith. We were very defensive away from home for the vast majority of last season, culminating in the yellowbelly formation we played at the Britannia Stadium.

There is no denying Hughton is doing a good job right now and has made, almost to the man, very astute purchases. There is just a niggling doubt that he could be getting more from the squad.

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I don''t have the time or inclination to give you my thoughts on 9 different games from last season, the post mortem has been done to death, but from memory the sequence of games you''ve selected is 9 from around 23 and from those 9 we took I think 14 points. Not a bad return in isolation, but when taken into context with the other 14 games the return is less impressive. I''m not really sure what your point is, 99% of people (both City fans and neutrals) would agree that we were generally pretty poor post Christmas last year, as a run of 2 wins in 20 proves.

I''ve given you my opinion on Martin/Whittaker and I''m not sure why saying the team captain (and best CB at the club in my opinion) will come back into the team when fit is a slur against the manager?

As for the other couple of comments, don''t know who said them or in what context so I have no opinion, I''ve got better things to do with my time than sit here explaining other posters comments to you, but it''s hardly pitch forks in the streets stuff is it. A huge deficit in possession and 2 shots on target at home against a side we''d beaten once and drawn 3 times with since our return to the top flight was always going to attract a bit of criticism from some, but on the whole the reaction has been positive.

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So then Brownie...

 

Why did you enter this thread and spend so much time in it? Was it just to have a pop at me? I don''t mind to be fair. It''s like the neighbour''s poodle barking at the gate when I walk past[&][;)]

 

 

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If you haven''t figured out why I entered this thread then it just goes to prove my point that you don''t listen to what other people are saying.

You also still haven''t answered my question in my opening post, but then again I didn''t really expect you to.

Yap yap.

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I see my old buddy Chicken Head has entered the fray! [:-*] I''ll let you into a little secret Brownie.. I''m going to wait a while before I debate with him because if we win a couple you won''t see him for dust. However a couple of defeats, especially if it''s teams like Hull, and he could stay for the long haul [;)]

 

 

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[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]I don''t have the time or inclination to give you my thoughts on 9 different games from last season, the post mortem has been done to death, but from memory the sequence of games you''ve selected is 9 from around 23 and from those 9 we took I think 14 points. Not a bad return in isolation, but when taken into context with the other 14 games the return is less impressive. I''m not really sure what your point is, 99% of people (both City fans and neutrals) would agree that we were generally pretty poor post Christmas last year, as a run of 2 wins in 20 proves. I''ve given you my opinion on Martin/Whittaker and I''m not sure why saying the team captain (and best CB at the club in my opinion) will come back into the team when fit is a slur against the manager? As for the other couple of comments, don''t know who said them or in what context so I have no opinion, I''ve got better things to do with my time than sit here explaining other posters comments to you, but it''s hardly pitch forks in the streets stuff is it. A huge deficit in possession and 2 shots on target at home against a side we''d beaten once and drawn 3 times with since our return to the top flight was always going to attract a bit of criticism from some, but on the whole the reaction has been positive.[/quote]

 

Mr. Brownstone, I have no problem with you expressing your opinion regarding our 2 wins in 20 post Christmas. As I have pointed out before, however, your view is a narrow one. If you leave aside the obvious top seven teams and compare the number of points Norwich gained post Christmas compared to the remaining twelve teams then surely that is a fairer comparison of how we fared versus those we were truly competing with. Seven of those twelve actually achieved less points post Christmas than Norwich did. Of the remaining five only two of them finished above us at the end of the season. It doesn''t mean you or I ( or anyone else for that matter ) would not have hoped for more wins for us but at least the way I have stated it gives a more objective assessment of how we performed against those we were truly in competition with than the drum that you continue to bang.

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No, I don''t see the negatives listed there and I also can''t see the relevance of taking the season in divided parts. (Before Christmas / after Christmas etc.) The league table doesn''t lie. We finished 11th and won 44 points from our 38 games. Does it really matter what month we won those points or what teams we won them from?

Personally Nutty, yes it does. A hypothetical question for you, if we won our next 13 games (earning us a respectable league position). But then lost the rest 5-0 and avoided relegation, would you want the manager to be here for the start of the next season?

I don’t think you can say that form isn’t an important factor in football, regardless of what position you finish.

That said I think we’ve made some very astute signings and he’s earned the right to lead us into this season.

I still think we sit too deep, especially at home, but hey ho, just an opinion and this is a message board…….

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Well, if you narrowed that search down to 17 games, where we were the worst team in the league bar QPR, we were the worst team in the league.

17 games playing badly is a long time in the premier league and not many managers have that luxury.

We we’re shit for a long period of time, admit it, it’s not a crime, nor a reflection on how far we’ve come since that period.

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Personally if I think that if Chris Hughton doesn''t play at least 6 strikers and employ John Ruddy as a rush goalkeeper against AFC Hull City Orange Sox, who are definitley a team of Anglian Combination standard, we should demand that the football club purchase a pillory. The aforementioned Premier League manger should then be restrained within this medieval torture device outside of the club shop and be prodded repeatedly in the stomach with an inflatable banana and forced to repeat the phrase "The best offense is a good defense" (with his best American accent) until the third round draw of this season''s FA Cup. At the same time he is restrained we can hold a random draw of season ticket holders each week to see who gets to make the team selection and hold a raffle at half time to decide when and who should be substituted in the second half. This would guarantee, at the very minimum, Champions League football for next season, probably make certain of us winning the league by a margin of about 18-20 points. OTBC!

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Odd thing is that despite the horror being laid before us about the second half of last season we actually picked up 19 points, which were it to have been the same form in the first half of the season (that supposedly saved us) we would still have avoided relegation.And were this splendid first half of the seasons performance to have continued we would have finished only three places higher.That doesn''t mean I''m defending Hughton or the way we played in the latter half, but it would help if some when posting about points gained and positions stuck to the facts.

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I was shocked to see people complaining on here after the game.

I, and many others who I had a chat with after the game, were pleased with how attacking we were, compared to last seasons dull nightmare (at times).

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We''re a team on the rise with a more potential than we''ve any right to. I think that when all the dust settles and we have a chance to look back at this season in the clarity of hindsight, we will say that this was our finest hour. So keep your chins up and get ready for the climb.

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

Mr. Brownstone, I have no problem with you expressing your opinion regarding our 2 wins in 20 post Christmas. As I have pointed out before, however, your view is a narrow one. If you leave aside the obvious top seven teams and compare the number of points Norwich gained post Christmas compared to the remaining twelve teams then surely that is a fairer comparison of how we fared versus those we were truly competing with. Seven of those twelve actually achieved less points post Christmas than Norwich did. Of the remaining five only two of them finished above us at the end of the season. It doesn''t mean you or I ( or anyone else for that matter ) would not have hoped for more wins for us but at least the way I have stated it gives a more objective assessment of how we performed against those we were truly in competition with than the drum that you continue to bang.

[/quote]

 

Banging a drum? Hardly. Nutty asked me a direct question and I gave a direct answer, I didn''t bring the subject up.

 

Your opinion is that my opinion is a narrow one, but that is just your opinion, we''ve all got one. The facts are that after our fantastic run (which Hughton was rightly highly praisedfor ) saw us beat Wigan we sat 7th in the table after 17 games on 25 points. We then went on a run of 19 games (exactly half a season) that saw us score just 13 points (and just 14 goals) culminating in our defeat to Villa which saw us favourites with the bookies to go down at half time during Wigan''s game in hand the following Monday night, my view is that given our position in December our results and performances since hadn''t been good enough and that we were capable of better. Of course they then imploded and we went on to win our final 2 games which rocketed us the table.

 

That is my opinion and I very much doubt that there is anything you or anyone else can say to alter it. I''m pretty sure I''m good company in that view, ask Mr McNally if he thought we were capable of better, or even Hughton himself if he was satisfied with our performances. Anyway, as I said, I didn''t bring the subject up and I certainly don''t want to keep going over what happened last season so this will be my final post on the subject, I''m firmly behind the manager and think we''re in for a good season.

 

 

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McNally and Hughton will probably say that they would of wanted us to do better - but what manager is going to say ''no, actually I think we did fine, just as I wanted, we did the best we could, I didn''t expect anymore from my team.''

I would suggest the only manager, chairman or chief exec that will say that or something along those lines is one that is relegated.

Last season proved how thin our squad was of genuine premiership quality. Evidence of this were injuries to Holt, Bassong and Pilkington. At times these players, and others were forced to play with knocks. This isn''t entirely unusual in itself but Bassong and Holt were so important to us. Holt was our only genuine goal threat up front. We almost had to play him.

With Pilks injured we were forced to play players in a role that wasn''t their most comfortable.

The Everton game shows that we now have a somewhat deeper squad. No Pilks, Bassong, Hooper, Snodgrass or Fer and yet we still got a respectable result against a side that as of yet has not lost any of its bigger players and improved upon itself over the summer.

What would have happened last season if we played without Snodgrass, Bassong and Pilkington?

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[quote user="Mr Brownstone"][quote user="YankeeCanary"]

Mr. Brownstone, I have no problem with you expressing your opinion regarding our 2 wins in 20 post Christmas. As I have pointed out before, however, your view is a narrow one. If you leave aside the obvious top seven teams and compare the number of points Norwich gained post Christmas compared to the remaining twelve teams then surely that is a fairer comparison of how we fared versus those we were truly competing with. Seven of those twelve actually achieved less points post Christmas than Norwich did. Of the remaining five only two of them finished above us at the end of the season. It doesn''t mean you or I ( or anyone else for that matter ) would not have hoped for more wins for us but at least the way I have stated it gives a more objective assessment of how we performed against those we were truly in competition with than the drum that you continue to bang.

[/quote]

 

Banging a drum? Hardly. Nutty asked me a direct question and I gave a direct answer, I didn''t bring the subject up.

 

Your opinion is that my opinion is a narrow one, but that is just your opinion, we''ve all got one. The facts are that after our fantastic run (which Hughton was rightly highly praisedfor ) saw us beat Wigan we sat 7th in the table after 17 games on 25 points. We then went on a run of 19 games (exactly half a season) that saw us score just 13 points (and just 14 goals) culminating in our defeat to Villa which saw us favourites with the bookies to go down at half time during Wigan''s game in hand the following Monday night, my view is that given our position in December our results and performances since hadn''t been good enough and that we were capable of better. Of course they then imploded and we went on to win our final 2 games which rocketed us the table.

 

That is my opinion and I very much doubt that there is anything you or anyone else can say to alter it. I''m pretty sure I''m good company in that view, ask Mr McNally if he thought we were capable of better, or even Hughton himself if he was satisfied with our performances. Anyway, as I said, I didn''t bring the subject up and I certainly don''t want to keep going over what happened last season so this will be my final post on the subject, I''m firmly behind the manager and think we''re in for a good season.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Well, if we are being factual, this isn''t the first thread you have made the same point on, is it? The reason that your view is narrow is because your focus is on Norwich City in isolation. It does not take a lot of imagination to understand that many thousands of supporters of the other twelve clubs we were competing with would have likely expressed similar views as you have regarding their clubs. Of course, that too would have been a narrower view than if a neutral observer were looking at the performances of all of those teams objectively, both in the way they played and the points gained.

 

 

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="Mr Brownstone"][quote user="YankeeCanary"]

Mr. Brownstone, I have no problem with you expressing your opinion regarding our 2 wins in 20 post Christmas. As I have pointed out before, however, your view is a narrow one. If you leave aside the obvious top seven teams and compare the number of points Norwich gained post Christmas compared to the remaining twelve teams then surely that is a fairer comparison of how we fared versus those we were truly competing with. Seven of those twelve actually achieved less points post Christmas than Norwich did. Of the remaining five only two of them finished above us at the end of the season. It doesn''t mean you or I ( or anyone else for that matter ) would not have hoped for more wins for us but at least the way I have stated it gives a more objective assessment of how we performed against those we were truly in competition with than the drum that you continue to bang.

[/quote]

 

Banging a drum? Hardly. Nutty asked me a direct question and I gave a direct answer, I didn''t bring the subject up.

 

Your opinion is that my opinion is a narrow one, but that is just your opinion, we''ve all got one. The facts are that after our fantastic run (which Hughton was rightly highly praisedfor ) saw us beat Wigan we sat 7th in the table after 17 games on 25 points. We then went on a run of 19 games (exactly half a season) that saw us score just 13 points (and just 14 goals) culminating in our defeat to Villa which saw us favourites with the bookies to go down at half time during Wigan''s game in hand the following Monday night, my view is that given our position in December our results and performances since hadn''t been good enough and that we were capable of better. Of course they then imploded and we went on to win our final 2 games which rocketed us the table.

 

That is my opinion and I very much doubt that there is anything you or anyone else can say to alter it. I''m pretty sure I''m good company in that view, ask Mr McNally if he thought we were capable of better, or even Hughton himself if he was satisfied with our performances. Anyway, as I said, I didn''t bring the subject up and I certainly don''t want to keep going over what happened last season so this will be my final post on the subject, I''m firmly behind the manager and think we''re in for a good season.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Well, if we are being factual, this isn''t the first thread you have made the same point on, is it? The reason that your view is narrow is because your focus is on Norwich City in isolation. It does not take a lot of imagination to understand that many thousands of supporters of the other twelve clubs we were competing with would have likely expressed similar views as you have regarding their clubs. Of course, that too would have been a narrower view than if a neutral observer were looking at the performances of all of those teams objectively, both in the way they played and the points gained.

 

 

[/quote]

 

I believe I''ve talked about it in one other thread since the close of last season, the one discussing Holt''s comments about tactics in his Radio Norfolk interview, I think my comments were relevant to that discussion unless you can tell me otherwise?

 

So, hardly banging a drum is it, if we''re being factual.

 

Of course my focus is on Norwich City, I''m a Norwich City fan posting on a Norwich City forum, so my knowledge of the other clubs runs isn''t as detailed, although to my knowledge only Stoke (of the teams that that stayed up) had a poor run of form similar to ours in the 2nd half of the season. If you want to call that a narrow view then feel free.

 

As I''ve said previously, it''s been done to death and I''ve no inclination to get into it again. I was asked my opinion, I gave it. End of. That really is all I''ve got to say on the subject so I won''t reply further.

 

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Blimey Brownie, yours and CUSDP''s respective cupboards under the stairs must be over flowing with the amount of balls you take home.

 

Anyway, as you like facts here''s some for you about the points won in the second half of the season : -

 

Southampton 24

Aston Villa 23

Fulham 22

Newcastle 21

Wigan 21

Norwich 19

Reading 18

QPR 15

Sunderland 15

Stoke 14

 

Now then Bill Carr, from memory of those clubs I think Southampton, Reading, QPR and Sunderland sacked their manager during the season. That should answer your question about if Hughton was manager of other clubs.

 

I think the bravery shown throughout the club by the owners, board, management, players and supporters saw us comfortably over the line. Some of course did bail out along the way but thankfully nobody important.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Blimey Brownie, yours and CUSDP''s respective cupboards under the stairs must be over flowing with the amount of balls you take home.

 

Anyway, as you like facts here''s some for you about the points won in the second half of the season : -

 

Southampton 24

Aston Villa 23

Fulham 22

Newcastle 21

Wigan 21

Norwich 19

Reading 18

QPR 15

Sunderland 15

Stoke 14

 

Now then Bill Carr, from memory of those clubs I think Southampton, Reading, QPR and Sunderland sacked their manager during the season. That should answer your question about if Hughton was manager of other clubs.

 

I think the bravery shown throughout the club by the owners, board, management, players and supporters saw us comfortably over the line. Some of course did bail out along the way but thankfully nobody important.

 

 

[/quote]Hard to argue against those facts Nigel. They just don''t support the proposition that we had a poor second half to the season in comparison with all those clubs around us. You did however omit WBA who only garnered 16 points from their last 19 games.The only way you can give any credence to the proposition is to claim that our final 2 wins were against teams with nothing to play for. Of course nobody else was playing a team with nothing to play for were they? If facts don''t fit the theory, change the factsAlbert Einstein 1879-1955[;)]

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Take out those six points from the last two games and we are bottom of the list on 13 points. In fact, if you don''t count the games that we won, we didn''t win a game all season. That shows just how bad we were.

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[quote user="Warren Hill"]Take out those six points from the last two games and we are bottom of the list on 13 points. In fact, if you don''t count the games that we won, we didn''t win a game all season. That shows just how bad we were.[/quote]That is shocking. You can see why several posters said they were only going to give Hughton ten games this season. Mind you, they didn''t say what they intended to do if things weren''t going their way after those ten games........

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[quote user="Indy"]

The difference from last year is very clear to see.......same tactics will work as we have a far better standard of player and add pace to that and Hughton''s tatics won''t be looked on as negative.

 

Everton are a very good side for the time being, come September they might just be far worse given that Fellini & Baines might not be there, but top 10 side easy.

 

With Bassong back, Snodders on the right, Fer in the middle and potentially Hooper playing off of RVW in the link up role the side looks very strong. I mean we are talking about who you drop after a very good start!

 

This is the best squad we have ever had, pace, guile, option on the bench to change the style and two strikers who are natural goal scorers and proven at high level (Champions League).

 

4-2-2-1-1 style that Hughtons playes (4 defenders, 2 holding players, 2 wingers, 1 link up player and 1 attacker in my view) is a style a lot of premiership teams play, Man United, Arsenal to name a couple and they score bags of goals.

 

This will be a good season and another we will build on.

[/quote]

Well said Indy.

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[quote user="Indy"]

Great time to be a City supporter and must admit to having a little peak on TWTD, now even some of the more intelligent Ippo suppoerters are coming round to what a great set up and team we have this season. Funny that in five seasons we have moved so far away from them that you nearly feel sorry for the poor little club south of our mighty City.

[/quote]

Poor Binners, mind you they do play at Poorman Rd. Lol!

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This nothing to play for/on the beach/donating points argument doesn''t stand much scrutiny. If you take that view then we were certainly on the beach with nothing to play for and in a position to donate at Manchester City in May.

 

In fact the truth is at no time is there nothing to play for. No club would want to spend millions on players who had no pride. And despite pride each place is now worth so much money clubs can''t afford to have players on the beach watching millions of pounds slip through their fingers.

 

Carry on making it up guys! It''s entertaining and only you know your own motives.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

This nothing to play for/on the beach/donating points argument doesn''t stand much scrutiny. If you take that view then we were certainly on the beach with nothing to play for and in a position to donate at Manchester City in May.

 

In fact the truth is at no time is there nothing to play for. No club would want to spend millions on players who had no pride. And despite pride each place is now worth so much money clubs can''t afford to have players on the beach watching millions of pounds slip through their fingers.

 

Carry on making it up guys! It''s entertaining and only you know your own motives.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Ah, but then nutty you didn''t see the WBA game, did you?! I said at the time that was the most lackadaisical performance I have seen from an away team at Carrow Road in the top flight EVER!!! WBA were not on the beach. They had done that, been in the bar for pre-meal cocktails, stuffed themselve silly at the all-you-can-eat buffet and then spent the night clubbing.

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