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hertfordyellow

English players and the EPL issue

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http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/aug/19/english-talent-premier-league-importingI''m sure most people have seen the stat that on the opening day only a third of starting players were English. This really bothered me when I read this and I just wanted to gauge whether the majority of people felt the same or simply don''t mind as long as the EPL is exciting. 1) Do you feel we (Norwich) have an obligation to field English players?2) Would you rather we finished this season say 16th but with 2/3 homegrown English talent getting regular football or finish say 8-9th but after further signings in Jan we are mainly fielding foreign talent with only a couple of Englishmen in the starting 11?3) What is the MAIN (one) reason for lack of English players in the EPL?FYI my answers are 1) Yes I do but I DO NOT think there should be changes to legislation to force teams to field English players. 2) I think I would feel more pride in a Norwich team giving opportunities to our development squad so prefer first scenario. 3) Money in EPL means win at all costs so there is no room for long-term integration.Sorry if there is another thread already like this, I did check, I saw one on the Murphy twins but it had different points.

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[quote user="hertfordyellow"]http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/aug/19/english-talent-premier-league-importingI''m sure most people have seen the stat that on the opening day only a third of starting players were English. This really bothered me when I read this and I just wanted to gauge whether the majority of people felt the same or simply don''t mind as long as the EPL is exciting. 1) Do you feel we (Norwich) have an obligation to field English players?2) Would you rather we finished this season say 16th but with 2/3 homegrown English talent getting regular football or finish say 8-9th but after further signings in Jan we are mainly fielding foreign talent with only a couple of Englishmen in the starting 11?3) What is the MAIN (one) reason for lack of English players in the EPL?FYI my answers are 1) Yes I do but I DO NOT think there should be changes to legislation to force teams to field English players. 2) I think I would feel more pride in a Norwich team giving opportunities to our development squad so prefer first scenario. 3) Money in EPL means win at all costs so there is no room for long-term integration.Sorry if there is another thread already like this, I did check, I saw one on the Murphy twins but it had different points.[/quote]1) Now the Premiership is more like a business than a sport then the emphasis has totally shifted to results over anything else. I would prefer my team to field predominately British players, if those players are available at the right price. Generally with a British player you have a better idea of what you are getting before you buy, hence them being overpriced.2) The same applies really as answer 1, its all about the money and league position now. A side putting principals ahead of that is going to find themself relegated.3) I think the desperate need for instant success, and the price you pay if you don''t achieve it has meant that clubs rarely take the time anymore to develop players and give them a break, unless they are exceptional (ie Rooney)

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It''s all about quality.

Citeh replaced Barry with fernandinio and Milner with navas. They look a far better team for it. it''s the same at every club

English player are over priced for lower quality. Better coachingcan close that gap after a generation. Until then I want the best we can afford

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I''ve usually been against the introduction of an English player quota, but I really think it is time for one to be introduced. Clubs will never start fielding more home-grown players themselves, so do need to be forced a little bit. Obviously the ruling cannot not be implemented over night, and clubs would need a couple of seasons warning that it is coming but in the long-term it could really help. There would be a dent in the quality of the league in the short-term but in the long-term it shouldn''t be a massive problem.

 

Of course any quota system will just lead to English players being even more expensive in the future, but it seems the only way for English football to really progress.

 

It''s hard to compare the Premier League to other domestic leagues around Europe because of the sheer levels in money - clubs in Germany, Spain, France etc have to promote players from their youth teams as they don''t have the luxury of being able to go and but a new left-back whenever they need one.

 

There are some expections in England still, Southampton have an excellent academy and their rise back to the Premier League has been largely built on the money they made selling Bale, Walcott and Ox-Chamberlain (God knows just how much money they are going to get from the sell-on clause in Bale''s contract) as well as introducing home-grown players such as Lallana and Ward-Prowse.

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Its a good point about academies Bethnal, and quite clearly ours is heading in the right direction.

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[quote user="ricardo"]As long as they play well for NCFC they could come from Greenland for all I care.[/quote]

Do you know something Ricardo??

Are you saying we need to start scouting Greenland?

Has a scout ever been there? They might be awesome for all we know

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Thinking about this more I''m not bothered (much) about English players. Saying that I''ve always loved a local lad getting a chance coming through the ranks. However my main point links actually to the England team. When you watch you want them to do well but the technique is just not there, compared to other teams. I am of the view that this goes right back to coaching at age 8 onwards. Have seen it with my own sons. Even lads with amazing skill get overlooked by bigger and stronger lads. We don''t recognise close ball control ability, dribbling is discouraged and in general even the art of the midfielder is given less emphasis than other positions. Sorry to sound like Hoddle. Until the culture changes in youth coaching set ups then home grown talent will be rare and this means overseas players may be a more competitive option for EPL top teams. And we may become one.

As for this season''s buys I''ve been really excited. Still, we have Hooper and Redmond. They have quality.

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Great post, and a good debate.1) No. For me, Norwich have an obligation to be a progressive and successful progress as a football club, and to also promote football in the local community. Neither one of those is dependant on fielding English players on the field.2) I want Norwich City to be finish as high as they can.3) Because for some reason, they''re too expensive in the transfer market.I don''t know why this is, but look at a few examples;Dwight Gayle - £8.5m - For someone who came from non league football, and then knocked in a few at Peterborough.Conner Wickham - £8.1m initial with add ons.Shaun Wright-Phillips - Basically every transfer he''s ever made. Remember £21m from Man City to Chelsea??!(As a side note, just how Hughton managed to get Redmond for a steal is another discussion. Could end up being the buy of the year in many regards)Also, I don''t buy into the theory that the England team suffers as a result of less English players in the PL. In theory, this should make the England team stronger, as the top England players are playing more football at a better level. I''d also point to the fact that 20 years ago when the PL had mostly British players, the England team won pretty much the same amount as it does now. For me, the issues for the English national team lie elsewhere, and the FA needs to stop pointing at the PL as a scapegoat. The FA needs to start looking at itself, for example, let''s look at selection (i.e. play for Arsenal or Liverpool? English? Come play for England! Never mind the form players at other PL clubs)I also don''t agree with English quotas for clubs in the PL. For me, all that would do is make the problem I highlighted above in point 3 worse. As clubs would need to have English players, they''d become more expensive in the market, creating essentially 2 player markets, one for Engligh players, and one for others. This may result in clubs like Norwich being priced out of any decent local talent, and result in having to pay high prices for mediocre players just because they''re English.

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Just as I thought, there are lots of varied opinions on the subject, ranging from "don''t care as long as the team does well" to "introducing forced quotas for English players".NCFC the business (hate talking about the club as a business but it is) want to maximise performance in all areas. If four Dutch signings etc are going to do that then it could be suggested that any moral obligation to British talent goes out the window.

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"] (God knows just how much money they are going to get from the sell-on clause in Bale''s contract)

[/quote]

Not much if the reports from a few weeks back are to be believed.

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/226447.html

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[quote user="FenwayFrank"]I know I''m getting off topic but it always makes me smile when people say EPL, I know what country I''m in !!  [:)][/quote]exactlynow we need to find out what it issuedas was it a special edition of some magazinethe EPL issue

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[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"]Great post, and a good debate.1) No. For me, Norwich have an obligation to be a progressive and successful progress as a football club, and to also promote football in the local community. Neither one of those is dependant on fielding English players on the field.2) I want Norwich City to be finish as high as they can.3) Because for some reason, they''re too expensive in the transfer market.I don''t know why this is, but look at a few examples;Dwight Gayle - £8.5m - For someone who came from non league football, and then knocked in a few at Peterborough.Conner Wickham - £8.1m initial with add ons.Shaun Wright-Phillips - Basically every transfer he''s ever made. Remember £21m from Man City to Chelsea??!(As a side note, just how Hughton managed to get Redmond for a steal is another discussion. Could end up being the buy of the year in many regards)Also, I don''t buy into the theory that the England team suffers as a result of less English players in the PL. In theory, this should make the England team stronger, as the top England players are playing more football at a better level. I''d also point to the fact that 20 years ago when the PL had mostly British players, the England team won pretty much the same amount as it does now. For me, the issues for the English national team lie elsewhere, and the FA needs to stop pointing at the PL as a scapegoat. The FA needs to start looking at itself, for example, let''s look at selection (i.e. play for Arsenal or Liverpool? English? Come play for England! Never mind the form players at other PL clubs)I also don''t agree with English quotas for clubs in the PL. For me, all that would do is make the problem I highlighted above in point 3 worse. As clubs would need to have English players, they''d become more expensive in the market, creating essentially 2 player markets, one for Engligh players, and one for others. This may result in clubs like Norwich being priced out of any decent local talent, and result in having to pay high prices for mediocre players just because they''re English.[/quote]

 

I don''t support England, so I don''t care, but I suspect that having so many overseas stars in the Premier League - and even in the Championship - does hinder the development of young players. This certainly happened in Italy when football was restarted after world war two. The top clubs were short of players and so Hoovered up talent initially from Spain and Sweden (both having been neutral) and South America, and later on from all over.And, as now in England, it was the glamour/creative positions that got filled by these foreigners. So Italy, which had won the 1934 and 1938 World Cups, didn''t get past the group stages in 1950, 1954 or 1962, didn''t qualify in 1958, and lost to Tangible''s North Korean Communists in 1966. After which foreigners were banned.That said, I am dubious that this is anything like the main factor in England having a poorly-performing team. It is not as if there were glorious decades  beforehand. England have only twice got to the semi-final stage (a decent benchmark) of a World Cup. For a supposedly major nation that is pitiful.Poor coaching and the emphasis on strength rather than pure skill that others have mentioned seem far more relevant. And if an English player is good enough they should still be able to force their way into a Premier League side. And if they can''t, there is a solution. Go abroad and play in Itay or Spain or France or Germany and get high-quality coaching. The harsh truth, I think, is that many of these highly-praised players aren''t that good or at the very least get over-praised too soon.

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[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"]Great post, and a good debate.1) No. For me, Norwich have an obligation to be a progressive and successful progress as a football club, and to also promote football in the local community. Neither one of those is dependant on fielding English players on the field.2) I want Norwich City to be finish as high as they can.3) Because for some reason, they''re too expensive in the transfer market.I don''t know why this is, but look at a few examples;Dwight Gayle - £8.5m - For someone who came from non league football, and then knocked in a few at Peterborough.Conner Wickham - £8.1m initial with add ons.Shaun Wright-Phillips - Basically every transfer he''s ever made. Remember £21m from Man City to Chelsea??!(As a side note, just how Hughton managed to get Redmond for a steal is another discussion. Could end up being the buy of the year in many regards)Also, I don''t buy into the theory that the England team suffers as a result of less English players in the PL. In theory, this should make the England team stronger, as the top England players are playing more football at a better level. I''d also point to the fact that 20 years ago when the PL had mostly British players, the England team won pretty much the same amount as it does now. For me, the issues for the English national team lie elsewhere, and the FA needs to stop pointing at the PL as a scapegoat. The FA needs to start looking at itself, for example, let''s look at selection (i.e. play for Arsenal or Liverpool? English? Come play for England! Never mind the form players at other PL clubs)I also don''t agree with English quotas for clubs in the PL. For me, all that would do is make the problem I highlighted above in point 3 worse. As clubs would need to have English players, they''d become more expensive in the market, creating essentially 2 player markets, one for Engligh players, and one for others. This may result in clubs like Norwich being priced out of any decent local talent, and result in having to pay high prices for mediocre players just because they''re English.[/quote]

I''ve said this before, and I''ll say it again. Dwight Gayle was not 8.5m he was more like 4.5! It''s on sky sports transfers and on every news story around the time he signed. 5m is about the going rate now for a good young up and coming striker!

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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]Who do you support Purple?[/quote]

A team whose world cup record stands comparison with England''s, but that doesn''t narrow the field down much! Let''s leave it at that, slim.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]Who do you support Purple?[/quote]

A team whose world cup record stands comparison with England''s, but that doesn''t narrow the field down much! Let''s leave it at that, slim.

[/quote]

 

That''s probably wise because you''re out of order.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]Who do you support Purple?[/quote]

A team whose world cup record stands comparison with England''s, but that doesn''t narrow the field down much! Let''s leave it at that, slim.

[/quote]
France or Spain it is.
I''ll go for Spain I can imagine PC with his feet up on  Mediterranean beach sipping sangrias.[:)]

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

Go abroad and play in Itay or Spain or France or

Germany and get high-quality coaching. The harsh truth, I think, is that

many of these highly-praised players aren''t that good or at the very

least get over-praised too soon.

[/quote]Top point in my opinion. Not sure if it''s cultural but hardly anyone tries playing in other countries. T Huddlestone for example has the talent to go play for a decent Dutch or French team who are in the UEFA cup and he decided Hull was his best move. Yeah sorry for using EPL a lot in OP, sounds rather corporate. I don''t know where i''ve picked up that habit. I think Henry Winter might use it a lot, think i''ll blame him. :)

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I had immense pride that we were a predominantly English team, but the truth is they were mainly carry-ons from lower league football. The England team will only ever pick from a select bunch of pre-approved players that have England pedigree (ie been groomed in the U19s or U21s) so players like Pilkington and Martin are forced to play for the other home-nations rather than hope they may one day get an odd cap.

Consequently I''ve lost all interest in England. I dont like the mentality of those behind the national team and I certainly dont like or identify with many of those who play for the team. i fell in love with football when Italia 90 happened. Seeing the heroism of Butcher, the pride and passion of Gascoigne. Players who earned their stripes and fought for their country because they cared. I think the current England players are a million miles away from those bravehearts, and see their England call-up as their gift to the nation and their right for being at a top club. They are continually spoiled and told how wonderful they are. The FA had to make a plea for England fans not to boo Ashley Cole on his 100th cap. Does that not tell you everything?

Consequently I lost interest in international football a good number of years ago, so Im far more interested in what happens at club level. In leagues where the standard is not so high, the predominance of footballer is from the native country. If we want the best league in the world, it has to be populated by the best players in the world. its a nice idea that those players could one day all be English, but its never going to happen. A high proportion of foreign players is not a slight on the ability of English footballers, but simply a natural consequence of constructing the best league.

So 1. i feel we have an obligation to try to field and develop our English academy players, think as we are ''Norwich'' and not just an arbitrary team we are grounded in geography, and so should try to develop any players in our cathcment area (although this is wider now due to EPPP). I dont think we have an obligation to buy English, as English players are overpriced in this market and we arent the richest club around. Buy based on ability regardless of nationality.

2. The latter

3. The above due to the bar being so high in Premiership football

 

I would rather we bought quality, and if this means they''re foreign, so be it. Id rather we filled in the gaps in the squad around these quality players (English requirement) with players from the academy, allowing them to develop as the season goes on, and if theyre not up to scratch, replace them with their natural successor next season

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English clubs do very well financially from the EPL and also in Europe. Available cash means they will inevitably pay high wages to players, wherever they come from. Leaving the EPL, even, more than not playing in Europe, will be a financial disaster. If you cannot find English players with sufficient skills, pace, etc., then the obvious solution is to import them.

 

There are thus two problems:

1) The shortage of home grown talent to staff 90 fully professional teams. There may be deficiencies in the coaching and nurture of players, with many of our players lacking the technical ability of overseas players. This will clearly require a major re-think and change in our game.

2) The reward from EPL and Europe means that clubs buy "off the peg" players from Africa, the Americas and Asia, as well as Europe. Foreign players are not averse and generally wish to come here. (What was originally true of the Premiership is now true right down the divisions. Foreign names appear frequently in Divisions 1 and 2, as well as the Championship. ) Unless they have massive resources clubs have little incentive to face the costs and risks of nurturing young players for 8 or 10 years when, as we have discovered, what emerges merely staffs local part-time leagues.

 

I don''t know what the answer is - will the new Football Centre help very much. I don''t know, but it won''t supply players to equip all 90 clubs. How can we stop the big clubs with money muscling in? Sadly, it seems that money talks, when it comes to building a good team and maintaining top status.

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I don''t think the lack of Englishmen in the prem is the cause of the national team''s'' woes. I think both of those issues are symptoms of the real cause - that English players just aren''t as good as their foreign counterparts.

I also think any English-player quota would be tricky to implement - similar rules have already been banned in Italy because of EU free movement of workers law. This would especially be the case whilst the 25 man squad rule is in place, as I don''t think we would be allowed to say "teams can only have 20 foreigners who can play during the season" (if we had to have 5 Englishmen, say).

I would like to see more Englishmen throughout the division, but I would prefer to see NCFC succeed. And given that English players are generally overpriced and not good enough, I am happy if we field a fully foreign side to be honest.

Of course the real answer here is not to implement quotas or the like (which would simply weaken the standard of the game over here) but to invest more heavily in grassroots training and development. Let''s get more top quality English footballers coming through the ranks of big teams and then all of the above issues begin to resolve themselves.

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[quote user="Salopian"]

English clubs do very well financially from the EPL and also in Europe. Available cash means they will inevitably pay high wages to players, wherever they come from. Leaving the EPL, even, more than not playing in Europe, will be a financial disaster. If you cannot find English players with sufficient skills, pace, etc., then the obvious solution is to import them.

 

There are thus two problems:

1) The shortage of home grown talent to staff 90 fully professional teams. There may be deficiencies in the coaching and nurture of players, with many of our players lacking the technical ability of overseas players. This will clearly require a major re-think and change in our game.

2) The reward from EPL and Europe means that clubs buy "off the peg" players from Africa, the Americas and Asia, as well as Europe. Foreign players are not averse and generally wish to come here. (What was originally true of the Premiership is now true right down the divisions. Foreign names appear frequently in Divisions 1 and 2, as well as the Championship. ) Unless they have massive resources clubs have little incentive to face the costs and risks of nurturing young players for 8 or 10 years when, as we have discovered, what emerges merely staffs local part-time leagues.

 

I don''t know what the answer is - will the new Football Centre help very much. I don''t know, but it won''t supply players to equip all 90 clubs. How can we stop the big clubs with money muscling in? Sadly, it seems that money talks, when it comes to building a good team and maintaining top status.

[/quote]

 

To have a good England team you only need a couple of dozen talented players. There doesn''t have to be brilliant home-grown talent all the way down the leagues. In practice you just need one international-class English player at each of the 20 Premier League clubs, plus a couple or so playing overseas.This is why I am dubious about the foreign influx being the major factor in England being not very good. The mega-clubs with big overseas contingents all had English players starting games last weekend.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"]Great post, and a good debate.1) No. For me, Norwich have an obligation to be a progressive and successful progress as a football club, and to also promote football in the local community. Neither one of those is dependant on fielding English players on the field.2) I want Norwich City to be finish as high as they can.3) Because for some reason, they''re too expensive in the transfer market.I don''t know why this is, but look at a few examples;Dwight Gayle - £8.5m - For someone who came from non league football, and then knocked in a few at Peterborough.Conner Wickham - £8.1m initial with add ons.Shaun Wright-Phillips - Basically every transfer he''s ever made. Remember £21m from Man City to Chelsea??!(As a side note, just how Hughton managed to get Redmond for a steal is another discussion. Could end up being the buy of the year in many regards)Also, I don''t buy into the theory that the England team suffers as a result of less English players in the PL. In theory, this should make the England team stronger, as the top England players are playing more football at a better level. I''d also point to the fact that 20 years ago when the PL had mostly British players, the England team won pretty much the same amount as it does now. For me, the issues for the English national team lie elsewhere, and the FA needs to stop pointing at the PL as a scapegoat. The FA needs to start looking at itself, for example, let''s look at selection (i.e. play for Arsenal or Liverpool? English? Come play for England! Never mind the form players at other PL clubs)I also don''t agree with English quotas for clubs in the PL. For me, all that would do is make the problem I highlighted above in point 3 worse. As clubs would need to have English players, they''d become more expensive in the market, creating essentially 2 player markets, one for Engligh players, and one for others. This may result in clubs like Norwich being priced out of any decent local talent, and result in having to pay high prices for mediocre players just because they''re English.[/quote]

 

I don''t support England, so I don''t care, but I suspect that having so many overseas stars in the Premier League - and even in the Championship - does hinder the development of young players. This certainly happened in Italy when football was restarted after world war two. The top clubs were short of players and so Hoovered up talent initially from Spain and Sweden (both having been neutral) and South America, and later on from all over.And, as now in England, it was the glamour/creative positions that got filled by these foreigners. So Italy, which had won the 1934 and 1938 World Cups, didn''t get past the group stages in 1950, 1954 or 1962, didn''t qualify in 1958, and lost to Tangible''s North Korean Communists in 1966. After which foreigners were banned.That said, I am dubious that this is anything like the main factor in England having a poorly-performing team. It is not as if there were glorious decades  beforehand. England have only twice got to the semi-final stage (a decent benchmark) of a World Cup. For a supposedly major nation that is pitiful.Poor coaching and the emphasis on strength rather than pure skill that others have mentioned seem far more relevant. And if an English player is good enough they should still be able to force their way into a Premier League side. And if they can''t, there is a solution. Go abroad and play in Itay or Spain or France or Germany and get high-quality coaching. The harsh truth, I think, is that many of these highly-praised players aren''t that good or at the very least get over-praised too soon.

[/quote]I don''t support England either. As I''m not English, I have a pretty good excuse not to.I would certainly agree on the last points you make on coaching, as well as the over inflated hype of any English player that looks decent. I don''t know how you would fix that. It comes down that everyone loves to back a young player and watch them progress. Just look at some of the people on this board crying out for Carlton Morris & the Murphy twins to play Premier League this year. 

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The main issue is that there has been no unified overall strategy with regard to youth development in English football. This is the fault of the FA, the Premier League and the clubs themselves.

At a time when other countries were focusing on youth development and winning the World Cup (France) the FA were focused on rebuilding an overly extravagant and costly national stadium.

Look at St. George''s Park, the FA''s National Football Centre, originally based on the French model. This land was bought over a decade ago, yet the facility itself was only finished last year. We''re probably looking at another ten years before we see any output from this.

Big clubs may have built their own youth academies in the meantime, but they''ve often populated them with promising young foreign imports.

The good news is that this position can be reversed, but everyone has to get on-board. German football is a good example of this kind of turn-around:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/may/23/germany-bust-boom-talent

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

That said, I am dubious that this is anything like the main factor in England having a poorly-performing team. It is not as if there were glorious decades  beforehand. England have only twice got to the semi-final stage (a decent benchmark) of a World Cup. For a supposedly major nation that is pitiful.Poor coaching and the emphasis on strength rather than pure skill that others have mentioned seem far more relevant. And if an English player is good enough they should still be able to force their way into a Premier League side. And if they can''t, there is a solution. Go abroad and play in Itay or Spain or France or Germany and get high-quality coaching. The harsh truth, I think, is that many of these highly-praised players aren''t that good or at the very least get over-praised too soon.

[/quote]

 

To flesh that out with some detail. Leaving aside countries (such as Belgium, Bulgaria, South Korea) that have reached one World Cup semi-final, the figures for SF appearances are these:2 - Austria, Czechoslovakia, England, Hungary, Poland, Portugal, Spain.3 - Yugoslavia/Croatia.4 - Argentina, The Netherlands, Sweden.5 - France, Uruguay.8 - Italy.10 - Brazil.12 - Germany/West Germany.Some of those countries (such as Austria, Uruguay, Hungary and Sweden) racked up some or all of their SF appearances some decades ago, and England chose to miss the first three World Cups. But just two SFs in the last 16 competitions pretty much gives the lie to the idea that the recent influx of foreigners into the Premier League is to blame.

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