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DannyNCFC7

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[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="ReadingCanary"]Because we have to stay competitive with all the other teams I''m afraid.[/quote]

Sorry don;t buy this. With the tv deals the casual ticket income is becoming less and less of a percentage of our overall income each season and with the number of casual tickets on sale for each game being only around 5,000 if they cut the ticket prices by £10 for every game it would only cost the club something in the region of £950,000. Whether we charge £45 or £35 for Everton at home therefore makes little difference as to whether we are "competitive" at this level and I think charging these sorts of prices for so many of our games (thus pricing out certain fans/groups of fans from attending regularly) is a little short sighted.[/quote]You want to cut gross revenue by around 2%? That''s insignificant is it? How insignificant would it be if I added 2% to your tax bill? Sure, you''d probably still manage, but you''d take a hit.I know it doesn''t seem like it with the big figures being touted around, but 950,000 is still more than a significant piece of revenue for an operation like NCFC, or any operation for that matter.[/quote]

No I don;t want to cur gross revenue by 2%. I don''t think we should cut prices by £10 for everyone for every game but i was merely making the point that even if we did do that then it would hardly put us in financial jeopardy or indeed make any significant difference to our ability to compete with other premiership clubs. I would also say that premiership football clubs are very different to most other operations and yes actually in the context of a premiership football club a 2% fall in gross revenues is not actually that significant. In practical terms its probably the difference between having Andrew Surman in our squad this season or having to sell him. I would venture to suggest that whichever of those scenarios applies is unlikely to have too big an impact on our fortunes.

I think that for the sake of sustaining the fan base long term, casual ticket prices for games against the likes of Everton, Stoke, Villa, Fulham etc should not be as high as they are and their should be concessions for students/U21s. We could do this with only a small loss in gross income for the greater good of the club long term.[/quote]I''m not going to argue anymore on the flaws of the highlighted statement above. All I would say is that any CEO company that made a decision to do this would have to find that revenue from somewhere else, or answer to the board the reasons for doing so - irrespective of how big the actual numbers are, or what kind of business you''re in.We''ll have to agree to disagree. However I''m willing to bet that the administrators of NCFC think more like I do then you do.[/quote]

We will indeed have to agree to disagree. I agree though that the current administrators do clearly think more like you than me. They may well (for understandable reasons) be more concerned with short term results than the state of the club''s fan base in 15 years time. I would hope though that the board (especially our board knowing who they are) would not haul said administrators over the coals if they did take a bit more of a long term view even if it resulted in a small loss of income. We are talking Delia, MWJ and Foulger here. They are all fans of the club and have its best long term interests at heart. It should be possible to find a middle ground.

A modest cup run or 2 extra tv games would probably more than offset any income lost.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]GOMT

I am used to it. It doesn''t even effect me as I have a ST but that doesn''t mean I have to like it or can;t voice the opinion that its perhaps not the best thing for my club long term. The fact that these games are selling out is irrelevant. For the time being at least, whilst we are in the premiership and have a relatively small ground we will always sell out more often than not - that''s why they have been able to implement the price rises they have implemented.

The point is more about who is buying these tickets and whether they would still be likely to buy tickets if we got relegated and were playing Scunthorpe on a Tuesday night. Our current strong fan base is not just due to being in the premiership, A large proportion of our fans are the generation who were able to attend Carrow Road regularly as teenagers, students and in their early 20''s due to the good value tickets introduced under Andy Cullum. Those who benefitted from those prices are now adults paying full prices and who will continue to do so because they have been going for years. I worry that for the current 14-21 year olds in Norfolk (and indeed many older adults whose income is at the lower end of the spectrum) tickets are becoming increasingly unaffordable and thus the "habit" of going to games is being eroded.[/quote]I can certainly see your argument.However it still wasn''t too easy to get seats when in the Championship, and we still did well in the attendances in League 1. If PL ticket prices have an impact on this the next time we''re down there, I guess time will (hopefully not, as I don''t ever want to be relegated!) tell.

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[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"][quote user="Jim Smith"]GOMT

I am used to it. It doesn''t even effect me as I have a ST but that doesn''t mean I have to like it or can;t voice the opinion that its perhaps not the best thing for my club long term. The fact that these games are selling out is irrelevant. For the time being at least, whilst we are in the premiership and have a relatively small ground we will always sell out more often than not - that''s why they have been able to implement the price rises they have implemented.

The point is more about who is buying these tickets and whether they would still be likely to buy tickets if we got relegated and were playing Scunthorpe on a Tuesday night. Our current strong fan base is not just due to being in the premiership, A large proportion of our fans are the generation who were able to attend Carrow Road regularly as teenagers, students and in their early 20''s due to the good value tickets introduced under Andy Cullum. Those who benefitted from those prices are now adults paying full prices and who will continue to do so because they have been going for years. I worry that for the current 14-21 year olds in Norfolk (and indeed many older adults whose income is at the lower end of the spectrum) tickets are becoming increasingly unaffordable and thus the "habit" of going to games is being eroded.[/quote]I can certainly see your argument.However it still wasn''t too easy to get seats when in the Championship, and we still did well in the attendances in League 1. If PL ticket prices have an impact on this the next time we''re down there, I guess time will (hopefully not, as I don''t ever want to be relegated!) tell.[/quote]

I agree with that sentiment. Hopefully we will never know who is right! We can agree that the best way to sustain the crowds/fanbase is almost certainly to remain in the prem and i do agree that for that we do need to ensure that (within reason) we are as competitive as possible!

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[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"][quote user="Jim Smith"]GOMT

I am used to it. It doesn''t even effect me as I have a ST but that doesn''t mean I have to like it or can;t voice the opinion that its perhaps not the best thing for my club long term. The fact that these games are selling out is irrelevant. For the time being at least, whilst we are in the premiership and have a relatively small ground we will always sell out more often than not - that''s why they have been able to implement the price rises they have implemented.

The point is more about who is buying these tickets and whether they would still be likely to buy tickets if we got relegated and were playing Scunthorpe on a Tuesday night. Our current strong fan base is not just due to being in the premiership, A large proportion of our fans are the generation who were able to attend Carrow Road regularly as teenagers, students and in their early 20''s due to the good value tickets introduced under Andy Cullum. Those who benefitted from those prices are now adults paying full prices and who will continue to do so because they have been going for years. I worry that for the current 14-21 year olds in Norfolk (and indeed many older adults whose income is at the lower end of the spectrum) tickets are becoming increasingly unaffordable and thus the "habit" of going to games is being eroded.[/quote]I can certainly see your argument.However it still wasn''t too easy to get seats when in the Championship, and we still did well in the attendances in League 1. If PL ticket prices have an impact on this the next time we''re down there, I guess time will (hopefully not, as I don''t ever want to be relegated!) tell.[/quote]

I agree with that sentiment. Hopefully we will never know who is right! We can agree that the best way to sustain the crowds/fanbase is almost certainly to remain in the prem and i do agree that for that we do need to ensure that (within reason) we are as competitive as possible![/quote]

PS I do also agree that is almost any other type of business your argument is entirely correct! That said most businesses do partake in a degree of "loss leading" from time to time with a view to maintaining future goodwill and building brand loyalty!

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Whilst I have sympathy for people priced out of football, I shall temper it with the following (Apologies if anyone finds this capitalist, simplistic or harsh)

The club is a business, not a cosy little boys club or a charity.

Life is about owning the things you can afford, and not owning the things you can''t. Football is a luxury, the same as a lot of other forms of entertainment. If you can''t afford it, you can''t have it.

Sorry.

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[quote user="Brightside"]I would like to see NCFC TV where every game both home and away streamable to your TV for say £5 a game. I don''t this would have a detrimental effect on FCR attendance and all would enable more people to see the games. The games could be shown say 15 mins behind and half of all money would go straight to the club.[/quote]

 

Never going to happen. If it did, I would only see it happening if 90% of the tickets had been sold for the home club. If they (as in FA/NCFC) wanted more money in and wanted to shrewd, they should say the away teams pubs can show it if a high percentage of their away allocation has been sold. Keeps the pub trade going locally. But it will not happen

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Sussexyellow"]Last time I looked there were three tickets left for the Everton game and tickets have only been available to priority members so from an immediate business point of view they have judged the market right or it could be argued under priced tickets.
However I do take your point Purple we also need to look to the medium and long term. We do have a number of restricted or impaired view seats which naturally are the last to go. Would it be an idea to make these available to U21s at a concessionary rate. Would no doubt blow a gasket in the ticketing software - but where there is a will there is a way!

[/quote]

 

Sussex, of course there is a short-term loss, although if it is only £190,000 a season I can''t believe we couldn''t live with that. But this is a board of directors that, I am quite convinced, still wants to expand capacity on the basis that there are several thousand (7,000-8,000?) extra NCFC fans out there. I have always doubted that assumption (I think not so many) but you don''t attract in extra fans, let alone the next generation, by pricing them out of attending matches.

[/quote]
Purple, I am completely with you on this. From my own experience of casual ticket buying I do not believe, at present, we could regularly fill a 35,000 seater stadium. 30,000 would be ideal but as has been discussed to death this is not easily achieved.
I also agree that to maintain and increase our attending support in the long term that we need to bridge the gap between the U16 concessionary rate and the time when these supporters are considered to be economically self supporting - say age 21. So I would support the introduction of a concessionary rate for this group. Which is after all what I was suggesting.

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I agree that it can be difficult to manage to pay for tickets regularly (Out of 8 that I was buying, 2 of us now have a ST, and the rest missed out this time round, but hopefully next season will get theirs), but if you want to go, you have to find the money...regardless of your age or income....or you miss out and watch it on a stream (as surely you couldn''t afford Sky, or a trip to the pub if it was being shown).

 

Although over 65''s are discounted, that doesn''t mean that for all of them, they can afford it any easier.

Same for me paying for an extra adult and 5 children.....but I do it for them.

 

Perhaps there should be another discounted rate for under 18''s, but that would mean you still paying same as what you have, so wouldn''t benefit you.As for under 21 concession, I don''t think that is needed.

If we want to watch our club, then we have to pay what they think they can charge...Only if all non ST holders boycotted would the club stop and think (I don''t think that will ever happen).

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What Morty said, football is a luxury and if you find it is unaffordable then it doesn''t fit with your lifestyle.

Could tickets not be seen as a commodity? Say for example at the moment they are in high demand, but there aren''t enough - this would drive the price up. Now forgive me for mentioning it, but a stadium expansion would lead to more tickets being available which, in theory, would lower the costs of tickets - or at least that is what I would do to fill the extra capacity.

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If you look at it compared to other day entertainments, it''s 2 1/2 times as expensive as Banham Zoo, twice as a much as London Zoo, you can see Evita at the theatre royal for £8 less and about the same as Thorpe park. So it seems priced about right for demand and comparable entertainments.

My first football match was £2 for the terrace

Yikes I''m old

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[quote user="morty"]Whilst I have sympathy for people priced out of football, I shall temper it with the following (Apologies if anyone finds this capitalist, simplistic or harsh)

The club is a business, not a cosy little boys club or a charity.

Life is about owning the things you can afford, and not owning the things you can''t. Football is a luxury, the same as a lot of other forms of entertainment. If you can''t afford it, you can''t have it.

Sorry.[/quote]

 

 

WHOA!!!!!!! Morty, I''m sure I speak for everyone when I say it is an absolute revelation that we live in a capitalist economy, that NCFC is inextrivably part of that, and so are its fans. We are all going to have to take time to process (I think that is the current jargon nonsense word) this gobsmacking news. You must excuse us though - we have all been living in a tropical utopia where milk and honey flow like something very flowy while you alone have been slaving away in the real world of drudgery and poverty.But while we are getting used to how this capitalism thing works, one point does occur to me, as an absolute beginner, following on - I think - logically - on from your admirably clear explanation. And that is that if a business prices its luxury wares so that its customers can''t afford them, won''t that mean the business will eventually go out of business? Or is that, to use your appropriate word, too simplistic?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Very true if a business prices its luxury wares at a price its customers cannot afford it will go out of business. Thankfully it has a full compliment of customers who will continue to receive its wares at discounted prices due to bulk purchasing and no sign of demand falling any time soon.

An additional 2-3000 seats would be great but cant imagine who would pay for them.

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What a load of nonsense it is a very reasonable price for the game if u wish to pay less get a season ticket. Moan moan moan people on here always moaning about the club.

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Purple -

Hang on a minute while I switch off my sarcasm meter, it appears to have broken its needle!

My simplistic point is totally at the crux of this, and whilst demand out strips supply the club probably doesn''t give a flying fig what age bum fills the seat. I don''t see a point in creating a circular argument lasting 2 years when the long and skinny of it is - if you can''t afford it, you can''t have it.

Now, if people vote with their feet because it gets out of the majority''s reach then I''m sure the club would react. But we''re not just customers, we''re fans, we''ll travel hundreds of miles, at ridiculous times on a Saturday morning to see our team, and we''ll find the money from somewhere.

I''m sure if we were all to tott up how much we spend in a year on football, then tried to justify that cost to someone who isn''t a fan, then we would struggle to explain it logically.

The point still remains, if you can''t afford it, you can''t have it.

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"And that is that if a business prices its luxury wares so that its customers can''t afford them, won''t that mean the business will eventually go out of business?"

 

No worries on that score, Murdoch will keep coughing up (while he''s still playing with his doll''s house).

 

Purple, was your blue-sky narrative elongated by overtime-related, exhaustion-induced napping on the return key, or did you just need somewhere to put your pina coladas in between hedge funding and you thought the Enter key would make a useful coaster?

 

 

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[quote user="morty"]Purple -

Hang on a minute while I switch off my sarcasm meter, it appears to have broken its needle!

My simplistic point is totally at the crux of this, and whilst demand out strips supply the club probably doesn''t give a flying fig what age bum fills the seat. I don''t see a point in creating a circular argument lasting 2 years when the long and skinny of it is - if you can''t afford it, you can''t have it.

Now, if people vote with their feet because it gets out of the majority''s reach then I''m sure the club would react. But we''re not just customers, we''re fans, we''ll travel hundreds of miles, at ridiculous times on a Saturday morning to see our team, and we''ll find the money from somewhere.

I''m sure if we were all to tott up how much we spend in a year on football, then tried to justify that cost to someone who isn''t a fan, then we would struggle to explain it logically.

The point still remains, if you can''t afford it, you can''t have it.[/quote]

 

I have no problem with that as a general principle. Of course that is true. The question here is more specific. Is it a good idea for the club to change its pricing structure (and this is deliberate - we used to have a pre-adult category) so that young people who are not earning a living find it hard or impossible to afford to attend matches?Your idea that "we will find the money from somewhere" may relate to adults chosing between football and the opera (I am just using a decision I frequently have to make which I imagine is commonplace). But I doubt is so relevant to the average 16-year-old. And - for the umpteenth time - these are the people the club needs to capture at that age so they will be available to fill those 7,000 or 8,000 extra seats.I am not a marketing expert, but I gather one of the precepts is that by the time you''ve realised you''ve started to lose customers it is already too late; you won''t get them back, let alone actually add customers.

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[quote user="Lets be aving you"]

"And that is that if a business prices its luxury wares so that its customers can''t afford them, won''t that mean the business will eventually go out of business?"

 

No worries on that score, Murdoch will keep coughing up (while he''s still playing with his doll''s house).

 

Purple, was your blue-sky narrative elongated by overtime-related, exhaustion-induced napping on the return key, or did you just need somewhere to put your pina coladas in between hedge funding and you thought the Enter key would make a useful coaster?

 

 

[/quote]

 

Not quite sure what happened there![:D] Me and technology. My understanding is about on a level with Morty''s Capitalism 101 explanation...

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Sorry to hear of your technology problems, Purple. My own keyboard has recently stopped typing certain letters: H - O - P - E - R, to be specific.

 

As so often (pre-banking crisis risk taking, UK-government ramping of housing market, etc), this argument boils down to the long versus the short term.

 

Tapping  (milking) current oversupply in the short term even if it is at the expense of having a large supporter base (jargon alert!) further down the line.

 

 

 

 

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I dont think there is any defence for the clubs in The Premier League when it comes to ticket pricing, of course it is too expensive. But they do it because they can and they are greedy, just like the players...................unfortunately, if you are like me, then its like a drug, I cant stop following the great Norwich City, cant stop watching The Premier league live on TV over here regardless of how much the subscription is and I will try everything to get a ticket for a match when I am in England, and each time I do buy a ticket I complain how expensive it is!! 

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Teens have money. Their Nike and Addidas clothing proves that. So do the team products they have which also includes indicates their interest.

So whatever argument you''re trying to make, PC, is irrelevant to the situation at hand.

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"]Because we have to stay competitive with all the other teams I''m afraid.[/quote]
We are actually one of the most expensive clubs to watch in the country when calculated on cheapest ticket prices, think we were 4th or 5th last season.
How much do you think the cheapest adult ticket price for Premier League and FA Cup games at Old Trafford is? They don''t have ''categories'' by the way, so any game.........
....... £31. 

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[quote user="Houston Canary"]Teens have money. Their Nike and Addidas clothing proves that. So do the team products they have which also includes indicates their interest.

So whatever argument you''re trying to make, PC, is irrelevant to the situation at hand.[/quote]
There is a huge difference between paying for a pair of trainers and a couple of hours entertainment.

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Purple, from my point of view I shall continue paying for my kids season tickets (As many parents do) until they start earning their own money, how they themselves manage that will be up to them.

We used to have a pre adult category because the club was too soft. There were way too many concessions.

And the fact remains, a football fan is not just a customer, he''s a fan. The rules about supply and demand of a product are different. Fans buy a foot ball ticket because they want to, not because it is a product they desperately need.

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[quote user="DannyNCFC7"]Yesterday i got my ticket for Norwich v Everton. but the price is bit to much anyone else agree? £45 is a lot when your 18 year old. Only work on a Sunday and Monday get about £100. Why cant Norwich make the price lower for under 21?[/quote]Why the hell should they ? If you can pay for it you can''t have it. it is simple as that, You are 18 and will expect the rights that go with that attainment in age .... vote, credit, pub, marriage so accept the responsibilities. it is of no concern if you only earn £100. What about those under 21''s who do earn a fair whack ? Would you expect/accept to be paid a concessionary wage because you are getting a concessionary ticket ?

"But this is a board of directors that, I am quite

convinced, still wants to expand capacity on the basis that there are

several thousand (7,000-8,000?) extra NCFC fans out there."There are 7, 8, even 10,000 or more NCFC fans out there - but not at the price that would make any expansion self funding. The more tickets ... the lowerthe cost of those tickets. If there were only 1000 casual tickets v Everton I am certain the club could charge far more than £45.

As to the guff about the next generation, where have this ''generation'' come from. The ones who weren''t at Carrow Road when we were getting crowds of 14,000 that is. If we drop down a league then the ticket price will merely drop to the level needed to bring in the maximum return - not necessarily a full house but the maximum income.That''s how it works. And before the usual cretins begin their bleats I don''t wish it tha
t way, but that''s how it is.

ps when you are next in a pub and buying a pint ask the landlord if he has a lower price for under 21''s

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[quote user="Dubai Mark"]I dont think there is any defence for the clubs in The Premier League when it comes to ticket pricing, of course it is too expensive. But they do it because they can and they are greedy, just like the players...................unfortunately, if you are like me, then its like a drug, I cant stop following the great Norwich City, cant stop watching The Premier league live on TV over here regardless of how much the subscription is and I will try everything to get a ticket for a match when I am in England, and each time I do buy a ticket I complain how expensive it is!! [/quote]

I don''t think the club is that greedy.  After all, 22,000 season ticket holders get to see matches at an average of £28 a match.   Its only expensive for us  "casuals" who have to pay a premium to see our club at Carrow Rd.    Only 5,000 casual tickets, and half of them would be for away supporters, so there are only around a couple of thousand Norwich fans who have to pay that extra amount.   But its a question of supply and demand.  Very few seats available, a lot of people trying to get tickets.  Price is high as a result. 

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Dubai Mark"]I dont think there is any defence for the clubs in The Premier League when it comes to ticket pricing, of course it is too expensive. But they do it because they can and they are greedy, just like the players...................unfortunately, if you are like me, then its like a drug, I cant stop following the great Norwich City, cant stop watching The Premier league live on TV over here regardless of how much the subscription is and I will try everything to get a ticket for a match when I am in England, and each time I do buy a ticket I complain how expensive it is!! [/quote]

I don''t think the club is that greedy.  After all, 22,000 season ticket holders get to see matches at an average of £28 a match.   Its only expensive for us  "casuals" who have to pay a premium to see our club at Carrow Rd.    Only 5,000 casual tickets, and half of them would be for away supporters, so there are only around a couple of thousand Norwich fans who have to pay that extra amount.   But its a question of supply and demand.  Very few seats available, a lot of people trying to get tickets.  Price is high as a result. 

[/quote]

A plastic tax I like it

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[quote user="morty"]Purple, from my point of view I shall continue paying for my kids season tickets (As many parents do) until they start earning their own money, how they themselves manage that will be up to them.

We used to have a pre adult category because the club was too soft. There were way too many concessions.

And the fact remains, a football fan is not just a customer, he''s a fan. The rules about supply and demand of a product are different. Fans buy a foot ball ticket because they want to, not because it is a product they desperately need.[/quote]

 

Morty, we have indeed been round and round on this. But doesn''t what you''re doing and will go on doing with the little Mortys (two I think?) over season tickets rather make my point over casual tickets? When they hit 16 you will go on bankrolling them, quite possibly until they reach 21, because if they stay in education they won''t be earning money. As with season tickets, so with casual tickets. If your sons were getting in with casual tickets, paid for by you,  would they suddenly be able to afford them - at adult prices - at 16 and still at school?This is exactly the point I and others have made. And is exactly why many other clubs no better off financially than we are have a pre-adult category.

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