Could we become an Arsenal?

[Cantiaci Canary 556]

[quote user="lappinitup"]Binner.[/quote]

That response genuinely made me laugh out loud ... and I''m still smirking.

[ReadingCanary 0]

If we don''t finish 4th next seasonHowson isn''t the next Fabregasand Chelsea aren''t relegated Do i get a prize?

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]If we don''t finish 4th next seasonHowson isn''t the next Fabregasand Chelsea aren''t relegated Do i get a prize?[/quote]

Now you are just being disingenuous. Howson was an obvious joke, I never said Chelsea were going to get relegated, I never said that we would finish 4th this season.

I really do feel sorry for you if you can''t dream of Norwich managing a top six finish or reaching a cup final, is that what football has become? I am picturing somebody who is a little younger than me, perhaps didn''t experience 1992 to 1994, and can''t imagine the pure joy that football can bring to a fan.

Has misery spread from London to Reading? A top six finish is not out of the question for Norwich, Swansea, West Brom, Newcastle. 

How about a different proposition. If over the next three seasons one of the teams that finished below 7th last season does not finish in the top 6 in any of those seasons, I will give you fifty quid. 

If any team who finished beneath Liverpool does finish in the top six in any of the next three seasons, you can give fifty quid to a charity for the homeless on my behalf. 

[Al 0]

Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!This thread is a joke

[Alan_Grey 0]

We wouldn''t have to just improve to get to the upper reaches of the league, we''d have to outpace the improvements of all those other teams. And guess what that would take? Something we have absolutely a lot of but still relatively little of.

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Alan_Grey"]We wouldn''t have to just improve to get to the upper reaches of the league, we''d have to outpace the improvements of all those other teams. And guess what that would take? Something we have absolutely a lot of but still relatively little of.[/quote]

Teams other than the current top 7 to break the top six:

2000-01 Leeds, Ipswich

2001-02 Newcastle, Leeds

2002-03 Blackburn

2003-04 Newcastle, Aston Villa

2004-05 Bolton

2005-06 Blackburn

2006-07 -

2007-08 Aston Villa

2008-09 Aston Villa

2010-11 -

2011-12 Newcastle United

Number of those teams to finish above us in the league system last season = ZERO. 

[Juggy 0]

There is no such thing as a ''top six'' because the top six changes every year.

It is lubricious to say that we can''t break a top six which doesn''t even really exist. 

[Billabong 0]

We have the potential to surpass Arsenal but unfortunately many small minded Norfolk folk could never accept such a notion!

NCFC can pull not only from Norfolk but from all of East Anglia

We can and will be bigger than Arsenal - but only when we believe it - Just give me a valid reason why we can''t......

[Alan_Grey 0]

I though the question was could we be an Arsenal? Meaning a team which is consistently competitive for champions league places, and for cups. Not a team to finish high for one year. Of course that might happen, but we won''t stay there unless something drastic happens financially.

[Alan_Grey 0]

[quote user="Billabong"]We have the potential to surpass Arsenal but unfortunately many small minded Norfolk folk could never accept such a notion!

NCFC can pull not only from Norfolk but from all of East Anglia

We can and will be bigger than Arsenal - but only when we believe it - Just give me a valid reason why we can''t......[/quote]

Because we''re not located in London, Manchester or another big city. Because we have relatively not brand or history compared to Arsenal. Because we have no uber-rich backer.

And to try and win an argument by insulting those who hold a different view is called "ad hominem", and is invalid.

[ReadingCanary 0]

The real question is if we finish in the top sixWill be commission a statue

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Alan_Grey"]I though the question was could we be an Arsenal? Meaning a team which is consistently competitive for champions league places, and for cups. Not a team to finish high for one year. Of course that might happen, but we won''t stay there unless something drastic happens financially.[/quote]

I said Arsenal and admitted it was a silly example.

But I also mentioned Everton and their hugely successful decade. I can''t see why us or Swansea or West Brom couldn''t have a period like Everton have had over the past ten years. Particularly as Everton''s run is likely to come to an end now that Moyes has gone. 

People seem to see it is completely impossible for us to finish in the top six. OK so decades of success and growth like Arsenal is unlikely, but a few top six finishes and a cup final or two really aren''t out of the question. 

Is 11th to 6th really too much of a stretch of the imagination? Bolton did it for goodness sake. There will always be teams penetrating this imaginary top six (which is never the same for two consecutive years), some people on here are making out that the top six is impossible to penetrate (Reading Canary and Michael Bates in particularly). Clearly it isn''t though, plenty of teams have done it. 

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]The real question is if we finish in the top sixWill be commission a statue[/quote]

No, because some of us have enough of a grasp on history to know that we have had more successful days and this club has not yet returned to its peak. If it weren''t for Liverpool fans we''d have been in Europe three or four times in less than ten years. Your small club Wigan-esque ''lets just avoid relegation every year'' mentality is not welcome by fans who had pubic hair before you left your dads nut sack. 

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Al"]Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!This thread is a joke [/quote]

Go home: http://www.twtd.co.uk/

[ReadingCanary 0]

It''s hard to have a decent debate when you''re debating with a Wall. (even if it is a yellow and green wall)

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]It''s hard to have a decent debate when you''re debating with a Wall. (even if it is a yellow and green wall)[/quote]

You aren''t trying to have a debate, in order to have a debate you have to be open to listening to the other persons point of view. 

I''d be willing to have a debate, why don''t we start with this question: Why don''t you think Norwich could become as successful as Everton have been over the past ten years? 

We can go from there? 

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]Chelsea could apparently getting relegated this year.This thread has gone into madnessI''m off to bed.[/quote]

Can''t sleep?

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

I like this thread.We have a massive potential as a football club. We''ve signed some of the best young players from across Europe (Fer, Ricky and Redmond) this transfer window and I honestly believe we can continue to grow.The point about the fanbase is valid as well.If the gap between us and the Blue filth/other smaller teams in the region stays the same/grows then we are laughing. The tours such as the US one will also help in building up the fan base on a global level.Exciting times.

[First Jedi 0]

"An FA Cup win does not make us an "Arsenal" "

True. It makes us better than an Arsenal! ;)

[Highland Canary 76]

Not until we sign some strikers:-)

[Michael Bates 9]

We can be an everton now as theyre in free fall having reached their peak and have little money to spend and losing their manager. However the top six will from this season be as strong as ever. Cant you see how much liverpool will have improved from their past few seasons due to their overhaul? And lets not get past the point you originally were making. Bettering arsenal so you were suggesting a top 4. Dont get me wrong id love it to happen but im being more realistic. It is a real challenge to stay top half for 3 seasons on the trot let alone be consostently a top 7 side like everton.

[The Masked Raccoon 0]

Boring Boring Arsenal

[Indy 3,286]

NO we are and always will be Norwich, we will have our run in the top league, we might get to win another cup in the near future, we might suprise a few and break into the top 6 in one season and at some point we will be relegated on the last day of the season, just part of being City..........that''s our identity we don''t need to be the next Arsenal or Everton. Unless we get our very own big money owners or become a global big name brand all we will ever be is a lower / mid table premeirship club who sometimes slip into the championship and that''s fine by me as it make life exciting.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Michael Bates: "Top six as strong as ever".   

Maybe, but the rest are catching up, I would say.  The differences last season were marginal imo.  The pressure on the top teams was immense and cracks appeared as some of the stronger teams below them took points off them unexpectedly ( particularly us).   It can be done and we have to believe it can be done.  Hyping up the top six into some mythical super league is just perpetuating a mental barrier that needs to come down.   They are just football teams with more money.   That is all.  Money doesn''t always mean success. Ask qpr - or Liverpool,  for that matter.

 

[Guest]

[quote user="ReadingCanary"][quote user="Pyro Pete"]I like the spirit of the OP - even if using Arsenal as a benchmark is frankly crazy.I dunno. I do miss the old days when a club like Norwich could genuinely put a good season together and be top of the league for the better part of a year. But the Premier League, which we voted to join, was always going to put an end to the days when the top league positions were open to anyone other than the very, very rich.Here and now, our club needs to do everything it can to lay solid foundations for playing football long term in the Premier League, without risking the club itself.  It''s a difficult balancing act. No-one wants to see NCFC do a QPR or a Portsmouth by overreaching. The longer Norwich stay in this league, the more NCFC can use the income to define itself as a Premier League club. Be it through investment in quality young players, rebuilding and expanding the ground or developing the youth system.  Hopefully that investment will lead to higher league places or the possibility of cup runs.  It doesn''t sound like much, and maybe it isn''t. But that''s the reality of the Premier League through and through.[/quote]Pretty much my exact opinion and view on the issue[/quote]Thanks, ReadingCanary. 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

When asking if Norwich can become an Arsenal the most important thing isn''t to compare the two clubs at the point of Wenger''s arrival (although Arsenal were is a considerably stronger position then than compared to Norwich now) but it is also to compare against the rest of the League. In the early years of the Premier League Man U were dominate and no one really came close, Blackburn had one season of success built on massive spending but never posed a consistant challenge and Newcastle flirted with success but always seemed to have a mental barrier to push on that little bit.

 

Arsneal managed to take advantage of the relative weakness of all the other Premier League teams and push on (although more often than not still played second fiddle to Man U). Between 1997 and 2001 there was really only those two teams (although Liverpool and Leeds tried to join them). By consistantly achieveing finishes in the top 2 Arsenal were in Europe year after year and had the financial power to cement themselves as a genuine ''big team'', don''t think the Arsenal success story is all about Wenger picking up cheap players from France, this was a catalyst but for a while they were one of the biggest spenders in the League - Henry, Pires, Wiltord etc all cost considerable sums of money and Arsenal players were all paid very well to not tempt them away. This all changed when the time came when they had to build a new stadium and the burdone of debt was too high to contiune spending big money.

 

In 1996 to relative gap between clubs income was much smaller than the gaps we currently see in the Premier League, the TV deal has meant Norwich now have money to compete financially with teams in Europe but the big clubs in the Premier League still make Norwich''s income look tiny. Arsenal''s latest shirt deal means they make more each year from sponsorship from Emirates than Norwich make in the TV deal, when you consider Arsenal then make a further £30m a year from Nike to make thier shirts the income differences are massive.

 

Whilst Norwich cannot ''become an Arsenal'' without massive changes in the way the Premier League is set up (and if the SKY TV deal collapses then Norwich with have even less chance of catching the ''big clubs'' who make the majority of their money from commercial deals overseas which aren''t reliant on TV coverage in the UK), there is a possibilty of Norwich to ''become an Everton'' - however when you consider Everton have managed to qualify for Europe a handful of times (and then get knocked out almost immediately) and haven''t won a trophy anytime recently, isn''t really that much to boast about. I also feel that even if Moyes had stuck at Everton, the growth of Liverpool again means they wouldn''t be achieving many 5th - 6th place finishes for a few years.

[Murphy and the Bricks 0]

Why can''t we be an Arsenal, Everton etc etc?

Why is in invetable we will get relegated, Arsenal havent in over 90 years?

Arsenal are the longest club to hold on to top flight football, Everton have spent more years in top flight than any other club & are only 2nd to Arsenal in terms of succession,  3rd are Sunderland & 4th are Coventry. Which suggested four/five out of the TOP 6 have at somepoint dropped out of the top flight. I''m not for one minute suggesting Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City etc are going to get relegated, but the are all in transition mode as are Everton so the gap this coming season may not be as wide as in previous season & Norwich are in a good position to take full advantage. Yes is might only be for one season, but who knows like plenty of people have said we have to dream, otherwise whats the point?

Someone posted that football had changed more in the last 10 years than it did from 1950 to 1990, what a ridiculous statement (unless it came from a 10yr old). Just think about it for a moment, look at some footage from 1950''s, 60''s 70'' & 80''s & then come on & say it again if you still believe it.

[Salopian 1]

The size of the ground, even extended and developed, would never match the Emirates, and the football crowd in reasonable distance from CR is never going to match the population density of north London and beyond.

 

On the other hand there are already signs of us becoming a little more like the big boys - not only in the major first team signings but also at youth level, with junior players signed from far afield and even abroad.

 

I am enjoying the controlled ambition shown by the club, with the intention of long-term occupancy of a place in the EPL. I doubt that we can ever be one of the big ones, even if we get close to the top, not would I really want to if it means foreign ownership and control.

[Cedric Pantselin 0]

[quote user="Michael Bates"]We can be an everton now as theyre in free fall having reached their peak and have little money to spend and losing their manager. However the top six will from this season be as strong as ever. Cant you see how much liverpool will have improved from their past few seasons due to their overhaul? And lets not get past the point you originally were making. Bettering arsenal so you were suggesting a top 4. Dont get me wrong id love it to happen but im being more realistic. It is a real challenge to stay top half for 3 seasons on the trot let alone be consostently a top 7 side like everton.[/quote]Everton are in free fall? They finished 6th last season and this season hasn''t even started yet. They''ve lost a highly respected manager, but so did we, and then went on to a higher PL finish the following season. Everton haven''t even sold any of their star players as it stands.To the original point of this post, the simple answer is no. 1) Location 2) Overall support base 3) Stadium size. Are Wigan the next Arsenal because they won the FA Cup? Nope, they''re poop and always will be because of their location. It''s no coincidence that the teams from the big cities are always challenging for trophies. It''s the same the world over - just look at La Liga.Yes, we''ve got a great local support base. But it is just that, local. Let''s not get carried away because we''ve made a few multi-million pound signings. We''re only doing that to keep pace with all of the other teams spending multi-millions. And please don''t start moaning the second things don''t go our way. There were even people moaning during the 1-0 win against United last season. "Ooooh wossy durn bringun ''im orf! He hint gotta clue that hootun!" Narrow minded idiot who I hope is on this forum. Don''t forget where we were a few seasons back and enjoy it for fleck sake!

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="TheNewBoy"][quote user="ReadingCanary"]i would say Football changed less between 1950-1990 than it has in the last 10 years[/quote]

In fact, this is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Just think about what you have just written, perhaps google some pictures of football in the fifties. 

[/quote]

 

It is a long way from the stupidest thing I''ve ever read. As it happens I don''t think the OP is entirely  right, but certainly not completely wrong. Images from the past (unless you were there and understand what they mean) can tell you only so much, and much of what they tell you is superficial. In terms of the economic/financial changes in football since world war two, which is what this thread is about, they are not terribly enlightening. The following may be more so:

http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/2463549/ShowPost.aspx