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Van Ginkel -- Chelsea?

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Death by Chocolate Starfish: I didn''t say I would jump at the chance of getting KJ. Quite the contrary! I merely made an assumption that you were the sort of person who valued hype and ''pedigree'' over substance. I apologise for that.

Why was that the only part of the post you had issue with?

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[quote user="Yelloow Since 72"]Any chance of City signing Christian Eriksen of Ajax, as he is being tipped for a move? Expensive, I know, but would be a massive signing for us.[/quote]

Nope, non, Zilch, Nada

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[quote user="Militant Canary"]Death by Chocolate Starfish: I didn''t say I would jump at the chance of getting KJ. Quite the contrary! I merely made an assumption that you were the sort of person who valued hype and ''pedigree'' over substance. I apologise for that. Why was that the only part of the post you had issue with?[/quote]

 

I did not have an issue with any of the post. I was simply giving my opinion that I feel money is better spent elsewhere. Assuming RVW is our lone striker we will have Holt, Vaughan and Becchio as backup. Only Hughton knows if he feels that is sufficient.

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I really hope we are not relying on holt, Vaughan and becchio as back up. If rvw gets injured then we are back with a group that I feel will keep us flirting with relegation.

Yes we will sign quality in the midfield in an attacking midfielder and wide players, but they cannot carry us. We need a second striker who has good pedigree, I do not want us relying on a 5 man midfield, we have had to do that as we haven''t been good at keeping possession etc due to the quality of our players. I hope now we do not. Need to rely on a 5 man midfield or deeper striker. We need two players who are a threat and in the right positions.

I really hope the midfield options we bring in are a massive upgrade to compliment rvw and that we look at a second striker as we need that quality. I do not want to rely on holt as our leading striker next season.

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Personally think we need an attacking forward rather than an out and out striker.

Someone like Victor Moses , Daniel Sturridge etc

Someone with real pace who could play on the wing / left or right of a front three or off a big man.

Also a goalscoring number 10 to play behind the striker.

Clubs like Norwich need to invest heavily in versatile players who can suit various formations.

Hopefully this will give us a more serious threat from midfield giving the striker more option to score.

I''m happy with RVW Holt Becchio & Vaughan with these additions.

Exciting times.

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Quote from Guardian site yesterday.

 

Chelsea are also interested in the Vitesse Arnhem midfielder Marco van Ginkel. As are Manchester United and Norwich City, the unexpected mention of the latter, smaller club suggesting that''s where he''s actually going.

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[quote user="KeelansGlove"]

Quote from Guardian site yesterday.

 

Chelsea are also interested in the Vitesse Arnhem midfielder Marco van Ginkel. As are Manchester United and Norwich City, the unexpected mention of the latter, smaller club suggesting that''s where he''s actually going.

[/quote]

I would pay little attention to the Guardian''s ''Rumour Mill'' section - basically a piece to mock other newspapers inaccurate transfer predictions.

 

I do agree with your earlier point that Norwich need to bring in someone who can play outwide or deeper, rather than another out and out striker. I doubt Norwich will start many games next season with two strikers - so to spend a huge sum on money on a player who will manily be on the bench isn''t sensible either financially or in terms of squad places.

 

I would rather see someone to come into the Wes role but has a goal scoring instinct - whereas Hoolahan is a more old fashioned playmaker, I''d like to see Norwich bring in a player more like Ozil, who sits behind a striker but is often the player furthest forward and gets plenty of goals.

 

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Bethnal: Was it you that was excited by the prospect of signing Kadlec from Prague earlier in the season? Can''t quite remember.

What would you say to Kadlec now? Good second-striker/winger. Can his body handle the PL?

Do you know of any Japanese players that would be good and realistic options? Heard a bizarre rumour about Honda from CSKA to us this summer. I''d say its about 99.9% unlikely, but what a signing that would be! Thoughts?

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[quote user="Militant Canary"]Bethnal: Was it you that was excited by the prospect of signing Kadlec from Prague earlier in the season? Can''t quite remember. What would you say to Kadlec now? Good second-striker/winger. Can his body handle the PL? Do you know of any Japanese players that would be good and realistic options? Heard a bizarre rumour about Honda from CSKA to us this summer. I''d say its about 99.9% unlikely, but what a signing that would be! Thoughts?[/quote]

I think it was Indy who was getting into overly excited about Kadlec - I don''t think he is up to EPL standard yet and would be a fringe player at Norwich. Doesn''t he also have a habit of picking up injuries?

 

As for Honda there are a lot of rumours about him going around at the minute as his contract is coming close to ending - due to the way the Russia League was played in the summer when he first signed for CSKA it doesn''t actually expire until December 31st, not June 30th which many people are saying (this is a great way to spot if the rumours are fake or not).

 

I would say Norwich have 0% chance in signing him - he wants to play in the Champions'' League and his main objective is to remain the largest star in Japan which is under threat now Kagawa has moved to Man U - they are both in competition for the same position in the national team. For him, the idea of playing for a club significantly smaller than Kagawa in the same league would be horrifying. I imagine he''ll turn up somewhere in Italy, where he has often talked about wanting to play.

 

In other news, Altidore gave an interview over the weekend saying he wants to play in Germany, and he was pretty down on the coaching in England - I would say that rules him out of a move to Norwich.

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I don''t think we should be put off by any player saying he wants to play in the Champions League. I''m sure RvW wants that as well, but not immediately. If Van Ginkel should go to Chelsea, does he really think he will start every game at the age of 20? No, he will disappear for a year or two, maybe going out on loan. There must be others like RvW who can see playing for City as an alternative route to that ambition.

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[quote user="Yelloow Since 72"]I don''t think we should be put off by any player saying he wants to play in the Champions League. I''m sure RvW wants that as well, but not immediately. If Van Ginkel should go to Chelsea, does he really think he will start every game at the age of 20? No, he will disappear for a year or two, maybe going out on loan. There must be others like RvW who can see playing for City as an alternative route to that ambition.[/quote]

 

For a player of Van Ginkel''s age they might be tempted for a move where they get first team football every week with an eye to a bigger move in a couple of seasons - in Honda''s case he is 26 and at the peak of his powers, he doesn''t want to wait around anymore.

 

Whilst there is a lot of sense for a player to progress slower and get plenty of first team experience at Norwich - it must be so hard to turn down a big exciting move to a club like Chelsea, the chance of working with Jose, the chance to impress in the Champions'' League and of course the extra money that comes with it. As most footballers are supremely confident in their own abilities also, he would probably fancy his chances of dispacing either John Obi Mikel or Frank Lampard from the Chelsea midfield.

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Bethnal: Agreed about Honda, but good to have it in detail from someone who knows.

The Altidore thing is a little disappointing. I had heard that he wanted another try at the EPL, but that could be old news/conjecture/made up.

Rule that one out then.

Any other Japanese players that you think would be good for NCFC?

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I agree that we need wide players who are fast striker like options, but as I have said I am afraid that if rvw does get injured then we are relying on holt etc to bring in these much better players. I think we do need a forward who does have a presence.

I just think it is exciting that we can finally see quality in those wide area, upfront and in the centre of midfield.

I do think a striker may be needed, I am not sure that holty is the answer. But we need those wide players to begin to ship in with 8 goals each throughout the season and a central midfielder with ability to be a threat before we get that player behind the striker to really bring in another 10-12 goals. We need threats through our front 5 or 6 for with goals in them.

I just can''t wait for genuine quality, improve on our workman like team with little quality to be moved to the bench to play amongst genuine quality. Also be nice to see our fans see the quality that we can now bring in and forget about players who have not fulfilled or reached the levels we now demand.

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Honda is and was player who is targeted by teams like Real Madrid, Juventus etc. He is one of my favourite players in the world as he is so complete. Exellent shot, huge work rate and good attitude on the field, good vision and passes, good crosses and enought pace.

He is at least 3 levels above Van Ginkel and for us getting him is possible as me starting sh*t diamonds.

I think people are bit overating Van Ginkel at the moment. Eredivisie isnt poor league, but this guy is still young and has lot to learn even thought he had exellent season.

For example Oscar is still strugling to get his physics up to premier league''s standard and brazilian youth starts are always a bit earlier in developement than european counterparts because of the culture and he is considered already a "super star" in Brazil where Ginkel is potential star in Netherlands.

I think he is in our reach if we really are going for him as it is quite much guarrantee he wont play too many minutes for Chelsea next season even if they would sign him.

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Not sure if anyone is expecting too much from Ginkel. fact is he is quite a talented player with a lot of potential. he would do brilliantly in this league given the chance and the run of games.

he won''t get that at chelsea.

if the choice was between here and there, and wages are to be the same, the best move career wise will be the place he will get the games he needs (here)

but the name "chelsea" may just knock us out completely.

and if we ever managed to get joze, I''d be over the moon. he, rvw, and ginkel, combined with a LB, CB, and perhaps one more mid, would be the majority of our business done for the summer.

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I remember the ''secret agent'' feature in 4-4-2 going on about transfer rumours and there are patterns of an agent lobbing in 2 big clubs and a smaller but truly interested club in order to drive up the price and tempt other clubs in. Could be weight in the guardians claims.

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And what comes to other japanese players I cant see too many of them doing us any good.

They have two very good fullback, but Nagamoto is probably too expensive for us. As far as I know Uchida has been pretty happy in Schalke and plays right side where we really dont need that much strenghtening.

Mentioned Kiyotake wouldnt be a upgrade for Hoolahan at least not for me, but could be "buyable". I think he renewed his contract lately thought. He could play for either wing, but he is most effective in the middle of the pitch just behind striker.

Einhart Frankfurt has that somewhat good left winger Inui who could give some competition for Pilkington, but still think we should aim higher.

Any of these would give us nice boost in Japan thought as they love their national team players.

Only japanese with these who I would even consider (+ Honda and Kagawa ofc) would be Takashi Usami who is considered one of their most promising players. He for example dropped Arsenal''s Ryo out from olympic team. But as Kiyutake he probably wouldnt be first 11 player.

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If we were to sign a Japense/Korean...

I would imagine that a few friendlies might have already been planned.

Maybe we getting an ''American''

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[quote user="Lavanche"]And what comes to other japanese players I cant see too many of them doing us any good. They have two very good fullback, but Nagamoto is probably too expensive for us. As far as I know Uchida has been pretty happy in Schalke and plays right side where we really dont need that much strenghtening. Mentioned Kiyotake wouldnt be a upgrade for Hoolahan at least not for me, but could be "buyable". I think he renewed his contract lately thought. He could play for either wing, but he is most effective in the middle of the pitch just behind striker. Einhart Frankfurt has that somewhat good left winger Inui who could give some competition for Pilkington, but still think we should aim higher. Any of these would give us nice boost in Japan thought as they love their national team players. Only japanese with these who I would even consider (+ Honda and Kagawa ofc) would be Takashi Usami who is considered one of their most promising players. He for example dropped Arsenal''s Ryo out from olympic team. But as Kiyutake he probably wouldnt be first 11 player.[/quote]

 

Oh dear Lavache - you have strayed into my specalist subject and made some pretty large claims, all of which I would argue with.

 

It''s true Uchida and Nagatomo are great full-backs, many were saying Nagatomo had potential to be one of the top left backs in the world for a while but his development plateaued really quickly (not uncommon with Japanese players, but I might get onto that later). I would say the real player with a lot of potential is Gotoku Sakai though, half German half Japanese and developing really well at Stuttgart - I don''t think it will be too long before he''s pushes Uchida out of the National team.

 

Kiyotake would be a massive upgrade on Hoolahan (and I love Wes) - but the idea of him being ''buyable'' is increasingly hard to see, many in Germany are saying he is being lined up by Dortmund to replace Gotze/Kagawa. Kiyotake''s first season in Germany has been far more impressive than Kagawa''s was but with another 3 years on his contract I can see Nuremburg holding out for a large fee. To say Kiyotake wouldn''t be in the first choice 11 is maddness, in my opinion.

 

Inui would also be a major coup if Norwich could sign him - again large teams are having a look at him, but I think he''ll also not move this summer. He''s scored 13 goals in about 60 games in his first two season in Germany - not a bad return for a winger although his best position will probably end up more centrally. Inui, like many Japanese players, choose to finish high school before turning professional so his development is a little later than European players - this makes it harder to tell if he will contiune to develop at the rapid rate he has been for much longer.

 

The real issue I take with your post though is the bit about Usami - although he once was the golden boy of Japanese football bursting into the Gamba team at 16 he has never really progressed from there and was pretty unsuccessful at Hoffenheim. He didn''t ''drop Ryo out of the Olympic team'' as Japan elected to send a fairly expriemental team to London and Ryo was prioritised for the senior team. Japan also didn''t take Kagawa who was eligible to the Olympics and didn''t select their full quota of overage players.

 

Going back to your previous post regarding Honda - Real Madrid, Juvetus or teams of that calibre have never been interested in signing Honda. He has been desperate to leave Moscow for a couple of years now and no-one was prepared to sign him - Honda had a great World Cup in 2010 but has rarely reached those standards again and has been in and out of the CSKA team for a while now. Honda is a classic big game player, WC2010 and the 2011AFC were bright moments but he fails to deliver on a regular basis for his club. He is a good player, but I would say Kagawa and Kiyotake are both superior to him - Honda is of course the pin up boy of Japanese football and this gives him a higher status (for now).

 

For me a good player who has yet to make it to Europe is Hideto Takahashi - like others he wanted to finish university before going pro so is a late developer (now 25) but I would imagine a move to a European team will happen soon. He started at centre-back but since moving to a defensive midfield role he has come good. He is excellent at reading a game and is one of those players that pops up to intercept the ball without needing to make a tackle, he also has great distribution - he is the natural successor to Endo.

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Hmm I''m not so sure about Sakai (neither of them as Hiroki is quite good fullback too) Uchida havent shown any slowing down on developement so even thought Gotoku will keep improving Uchida is hard to replace I would guess that Japan would move Uchida play as right winger before dropping him out if Ryo and Usami dont develope as expected and get a role there beside Honda and Kagawa. Anyway all of them good players, but I still rate current national starters before Sakais.

And I personaly love japanese players as their mental state is so much different than for example big youth players from France, but Kiyotake is still very raw. I dont know how much you watch Bundesliga, but he is not near Kagawa as a complete player yet and even Kagawa has some problems to adapt premier league. Also Kiyotake has buy out clause in his contract, which is rumored to be 8 million so he is buyable if he decides to be so.

Same goes for Inui. Good player, probably will develope, but you dont know how much and at the moment he isnt a starter for me.

But then again this is something debatable. I rate Pilkington and Hoolahan higher than these two, but in some areas they are better and some who watches other perspective this game could see it different.

About Honda, his buyout clause is huge in CSKA thats why he haven''t moved yet. He also had this and last season some injury problems which is why he havent played all the games in russian league. His train for biggest teams might have gone already, but big money teams will be interested in him this summer too. Will it be Monaco, Fenerbache or whatever, he most likely is out of our reach and still a great player. Him and Kagawa are complete different players. Another one is clearly a playmaker in a pocket position where Honda is more straightforward, I wouldnt compare them too much, but I rate Honda a few steps higher than Kagawa mostly because he doesnt have much weaknesses in his game. Kagawa will overthrown him in few years as he will get the physical aspect in his game in England. Kiyotake wont fit on the same page with these two yet. Something about this tells that always when fit Kagawa and Honda plays for national team and Kiyotake moves out of their "favoured" positions. Thought nothing keeps him out of developing over these two.

And then back to Usami. Japanese coach before olympics was quite clear that it will be either Usami or Ryo who gets the last "forward" position left in olympic team and it was Usami who was selected. Ofc selections wont tell the whole picture, but both of them were somewhat "jammed" in their carreer as Ryo didnt get playing time and neither did Usami and coach selected to give Usami chance to show a bit of his talents in olympics for getting forward. Or at least this is what japanese newspapers wrote about it if I''m trust to my relatives in there.

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Hmm I''m not so sure about Sakai (neither of them as Hiroki is quite good fullback too) Uchida havent shown any slowing down on developement so even thought Gotoku will keep improving Uchida is hard to replace I would guess that Japan would move Uchida play as right winger before dropping him out if Ryo and Usami dont develope as expected and get a role there beside Honda and Kagawa. Anyway all of them good players, but I still rate current national starters before Sakais.

And I personaly love japanese players as their mental state is so much different than for example big youth players from France, but Kiyotake is still very raw. I dont know how much you watch Bundesliga, but he is not near Kagawa as a complete player yet and even Kagawa has some problems to adapt premier league. Also Kiyotake has buy out clause in his contract, which is rumored to be 8 million so he is buyable if he decides to be so.

Same goes for Inui. Good player, probably will develope, but you dont know how much and at the moment he isnt a starter for me.

But then again this is something debatable. I rate Pilkington and Hoolahan higher than these two, but in some areas they are better and some who watches other perspective this game could see it different.

About Honda, his buyout clause is huge in CSKA thats why he haven''t moved yet. He also had this and last season some injury problems which is why he havent played all the games in russian league. His train for biggest teams might have gone already, but big money teams will be interested in him this summer too. Will it be Monaco, Fenerbache or whatever, he most likely is out of our reach and still a great player. Him and Kagawa are complete different players. Another one is clearly a playmaker in a pocket position where Honda is more straightforward, I wouldnt compare them too much, but I rate Honda a few steps higher than Kagawa mostly because he doesnt have much weaknesses in his game. Kagawa will overthrown him in few years as he will get the physical aspect in his game in England. Kiyotake wont fit on the same page with these two yet. Something about this tells that always when fit Kagawa and Honda plays for national team and Kiyotake moves out of their "favoured" positions. Thought nothing keeps him out of developing over these two.

And then back to Usami. Japanese coach before olympics was quite clear that it will be either Usami or Ryo who gets the last "forward" position left in olympic team and it was Usami who was selected. Ofc selections wont tell the whole picture, but both of them were somewhat "jammed" in their carreer as Ryo didnt get playing time and neither did Usami and coach selected to give Usami chance to show a bit of his talents in olympics for getting forward. Or at least this is what japanese newspapers wrote about it if I''m trust to my relatives in there.

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I don''t want to drag this out too much as I think no one else on this board really has an interest in Japanese football - my interest is both personal and professional as a half Japanese person, who works in the sports team for a Japanese paper.

 

Ryo wasn''t in the Olympics team as Zaccheroni didn''t want him to be, neither did Arsenal as the player was suffering a little with injury. Usami was there as a ''last chance'' to impress, it went okay for him and he has been involved in the Japan squad since, although still yet to pick up an apperance.

 

Honda had a huge release fee at CSKA, but they were open to offers for him - mainly due to the player being very unhappy in Moscow, unfortunately no one wanted to make an offer (his asking fee was as low as 6m Euros for a while). Even before injury he was being played from the bench for CSKA for a while.

 

Kiyotake and Inui are both very raw, which is due to them both having relatively few apperances in Europe (although Inui really needs to kick on now with his decision making), but they are both incredibly gifted footballers, more so than anyone at Norwich currently (apart from RvW).

 

I do watch a lot of German football, I travel out there about 10 times a season to watch these guys play and interview them - they are certainly good enough to both walk into the Norwich team (not that the club would have any chance of signing them).

 

Anyway, must go I should be paying more attention to the Japan game currently being played, but they are 2 - 0 down to Bulgaria after a goalie error and an own goal. Not promising for the big game against Oz next week or the Confeds Cup. [:(]

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Hmm I''m not so sure about Sakai (neither of them as Hiroki is quite good fullback too) Uchida havent shown any slowing down on developement so even thought Gotoku will keep improving Uchida is hard to replace I would guess that Japan would move Uchida play as right winger before dropping him out if Ryo and Usami dont develope as expected and get a role there beside Honda and Kagawa. Anyway all of them good players, but I still rate current national starters before Sakais.

And I personaly love japanese players as their mental state is so much different than for example big youth players from France, but Kiyotake is still very raw. I dont know how much you watch Bundesliga, but he is not near Kagawa as a complete player yet and even Kagawa has some problems to adapt premier league. Also Kiyotake has buy out clause in his contract, which is rumored to be 8 million so he is buyable if he decides to be so.

Same goes for Inui. Good player, probably will develope, but you dont know how much and at the moment he isnt a starter for me.

But then again this is something debatable. I rate Pilkington and Hoolahan higher than these two, but in some areas they are better and some who watches other perspective this game could see it different.

About Honda, his buyout clause is huge in CSKA thats why he haven''t moved yet. He also had this and last season some injury problems which is why he havent played all the games in russian league. His train for biggest teams might have gone already, but big money teams will be interested in him this summer too. Will it be Monaco, Fenerbache or whatever, he most likely is out of our reach and still a great player. Him and Kagawa are complete different players. Another one is clearly a playmaker in a pocket position where Honda is more straightforward, I wouldnt compare them too much, but I rate Honda a few steps higher than Kagawa mostly because he doesnt have much weaknesses in his game. Kagawa will overthrown him in few years as he will get the physical aspect in his game in England. Kiyotake wont fit on the same page with these two yet. Something about this tells that always when fit Kagawa and Honda plays for national team and Kiyotake moves out of their "favoured" positions. Thought nothing keeps him out of developing over these two.

And then back to Usami. Japanese coach before olympics was quite clear that it will be either Usami or Ryo who gets the last "forward" position left in olympic team and it was Usami who was selected. Ofc selections wont tell the whole picture, but both of them were somewhat "jammed" in their carreer as Ryo didnt get playing time and neither did Usami and coach selected to give Usami chance to show a bit of his talents in olympics for getting forward. Or at least this is what japanese newspapers wrote about it if I''m trust to my relatives in there.

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Sorry for triple post there was something wrong with the board ^^

Honda was injured during russian preseason and thats why he sitted on the bench + the fact CSKA know he is going away.

6 million price was complete BS. Minium price for him was 18 million previous summer. That was stated by Lazio''s board and they were not ready to pay it.

Anyway thats for it and I''m happy to see there is other people here following japanese team ^^

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Try to keep this short as this is a Ginkel thread, but I lived in Osaka for a little while and my wife is japanese so I generally follow how Japan are doing too. When Japanese players were mentioned, inui and kiyotake were who sprung to mind for me (though Bethnal is the Japanese master here). I''ve also felt tormented by being linked with a loan move for Miyaichi the last few windows, but then he goes to Bolton and Wigan. Judging by Arsenals pre season I won''t have to worry about that this summer.After the "exciting" season we have just had, only having transfers to look forward to now it''s over I feel alittle lost..

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