Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Tetteys Jig

Bradley Johnson's Engine

Recommended Posts

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Webbo118"]I''ve already told you that - are you suffering from memory loss?[/quote]
No, but you appear to be suffering from a bad attitude...
[quote]There are numerous questions I would ask; e.g. what''s the definition of a long pass?[/quote]
Whilst I don''t have the ''official'' definition from OPTA regarding long or short passing, a generally accepted interpretation is that a short pass is one which is less than 10-15m in length. I''d personally see a long pass as one which is generally over 30m but may be slightly less depending on the situation/angle.

The point being that whether it''s short or long passing - Johnson isn''t great at either...

[/quote]

 

My attitude is simply that I don''t believe everything I read. Your lengthy waffle about what constitutes a short pass or a long pass illustrates you have no idea what you are talking about. How do they actually decide what is a short pass and what is a long one then? Looked at in isolation, it doesn''t mean a great deal. You may have two different midfield players. The first one tends to go missing during games when the pressure is on but is comfortable receiving the ball when he is in space. He rarely gives it away but favours short, safe passes. The second one is a brave player who is always willing to accept the ball to help a teammate, even if it puts himself under pressure. I think you will agree that both Ray Wilkins and Glenn Hoddle were excellent midfielders but, in a lot of ways, very different. Hoddle''s pass completion was relatively poor, mainly because he regularly tried over-ambitious passes which frequently didn''t come off. Wilkins, on the other hand, seldom gave the ball away but his passing was more predictable, usually going sideways or backwards. Over the course of their careers, Wilkins pass completion rate exceeded Hoddle''s by 5.8%.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What is all this rubbish about BJ''s passing ability?! Different players have different attributes. If he had the passing of Xavi, the engine of Yaya Toure and the shot of Gerrard, he would be playing for Barcelona and worth £80m! He is a fantastic player for the level we are currently at. He would get into just about all of the sides from the bottom up to around 7/8th IMO. He can break up play, put in a good tackle, cover more ground than anybody else I''ve seen and his work rate can be incredible. For the people saying Tetty is a much better player and passer, I can remember him having some dire games this season passing wise! Swansea (renowned for the way they keep hold of the ball) want BJ if you believe the rumours, That probably say something...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Basing opinions on gut feeling is all well and good, but I''d be very surprised if most top flight teams'' management weren''t using OPTA stats and similar programmes to get to exactly how useful a player is.

Johnson''s passing - whether going on statistics or "gut feeling" - is very poor. He has, however, probably been our best central midfielder this season when you take all attributes into account. Howson can''t tackle as well and has been very hit and miss (usually miss for most of the season). Tettey''s passing is not significantly better, but he looks better with the ball at his feet in terms of breaking forward and can probably tackle just as well as Johnson (gut feeling for that one, haven''t got any stats at hand to back me up there I''m afraid).

I think those of us who are more critical of Johnson''s place in the side for next season (note; ''more critical'' rather than slagging him off and saying he''s useless) are basing that on a view of passing football rather than Stoke-esque hoofball/thuggery. Whether going on gut feeling or statistics, I would say that both Howson and Tettey are better passers and offer more going forward than Johnson. However, without BJ we would be missing a very reliable defensive midfielder to break up attacks, hence the almost universal calls for an all round midfielder who can break up play and still pass a bit.

But if we got in a central midfielder who can break up play and still pass a bit, who would his partner be? Those of us who are thinking of being a side who can keep hold of the ball better next season than we were able to do this season, would probably choose Tettey or Howson because they can pass better and offer more going forward. Johnson would still be an important player in games such as away at Arsenal, Chelsea or Man Utd where you might not get much of the ball anyway and need someone to help the defence out. He would still be an important player for helping to shut out games when needed. But he wouldn''t be first choice, because we''d have one or two central midfielders who can both tackle at a similar level to BJ but who can pass better as well. That''s what progression is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="ryanncfc"]What is all this rubbish about BJ''s passing ability?! Different players have different attributes. If he had the passing of Xavi, the engine of Yaya Toure and the shot of Gerrard, he would be playing for Barcelona and worth £80m! He is a fantastic player for the level we are currently at. He would get into just about all of the sides from the bottom up to around 7/8th IMO. He can break up play, put in a good tackle, cover more ground than anybody else I''ve seen and his work rate can be incredible. For the people saying Tetty is a much better player and passer, I can remember him having some dire games this season passing wise! Swansea (renowned for the way they keep hold of the ball) want BJ if you believe the rumours, That probably say something...
[/quote]

I can tell you exactly what it is. Someone reads something on a website, sticks it on here and before you know where you are, the sheep have jumped onto yet another bandwagon, being incapable of any individual thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Webbo118"]I can tell you exactly what it is. Someone reads something on a website, sticks it on here and before you know where you are, the sheep have jumped onto yet another bandwagon, being incapable of any individual thoughts.[/quote]Why the hell are you so angry and aggressive???For some reason you seem to think that pointing out that there are questions over Johnson''s overall passing abilities, is some form of personal attack against him (or even you) and that by doing so, the player is having their entire game and playing ability derided. Yet this is so far from the truth it''s unreal.NO player is perfect, there will always be elements of their game that could have been improved. Take Thierry Henry for example, in my mind one of the greatest strikers in the history of football, yet he couldn''t head a ball for toffee and everyone knows this, but it didn''t matter in the grand scheme of things because almost everything else he did was so good. If I gave you stats that showed Henry was crap at heading, it doesn''t mean I don''t rate him as a player, I''d simply be pointing out the weak part of his game.I''ve not trashed Johnson or claimed he was a bad player, but the stats back up what I already thought - his passing is pretty crappy and is probably the weakest part of his game, and let''s be honest - If he could pass more consistently he''d already be at a bigger team!Just because my opinion happens to coincide with stats that back it up, doesn''t make my opinion less valid or turn me into some sort of sheep that only uses the stats as a justification, but they CAN provide data to help support a viewpoint, the difference is that you seem to prefer to argue about the validity of the data rather than about what it may well indicate...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Serious question Indy, how do OPTA collect these ''facts''? To get accurate details about an individual players every pass, header, tackle etc, they would need one person watching him throughout the game meaning the need 22 assessors at every single league game played. Of course, if it''s computerised, it won''t take things into consideration like a swirling wind, soggy pitch and team-mates calling for the ball into consideration. I have often wondered just how factual these ''facts'' really are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Webbo118: I''ve already told you that - are you suffering from memory loss? There are numerous questions I would ask; e.g. what''s the definition of a long pass?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Long ball - An attempted pass of 25 yards or more.

Key pass - The final pass leading to a shot at goal from a teammate

Cross - An attempted pass from a wide position to a central attacking area

Through ball - An attempted/accurate pass between opposition players in their defensive line to find an onrushing teammate (running through on goal)

Pass success - Percentage of attempted passes that successfully found a teammate

http://www.whoscored.com/Glossary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lappinitup: Of course, if it''s computerised, it won''t take things into consideration like a swirling wind, soggy pitch and team-mates calling for the ball into consideration. I have often wondered just how factual these ''facts'' really are.

-------------------------------------------------------

They are pretty damn accurate from what I have seen. As for swirling winds etc, all evens itself out over the season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aggy sums it up well, it''s a bit of critical analysis. I am not calling BJ useless. It''s just something he will probably have already been told to work on over summer. He is still very young considering his experience and there is room for improvement. I wouldn''t be suprised if he got an England cap or 2 before he''s done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jimmy Smith: Aggy sums it up well, it''s a bit of critical analysis. I am not calling BJ useless. It''s just something he will probably have already been told to work on over summer. He is still very young considering his experience and there is room for improvement. I wouldn''t be suprised if he got an England cap or 2 before he''s done.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

BJ''s passing accuracy has actually nosedived this season. it was 78% in 2011-12, it is now 71.9%. I wonder how much of that could be the lack of a decent passer of the ball in the centre. Previously David Fox would be there to spread the play. Tettey and Howson''s range of passing don''t seem any better than BJ.

Interesting that Howson averages 33 passes a game this season, to Fox''s 52 last season (and Howson''s own 47). BJ is now the player who makes the most passes at 45 a game. (Tettey 39.7).

This certainly seems to provide evidence to reinforce the point that Howson failed to get involved in games for the majority of the season.

This also shows the importance of having players who can pass the ball in the central midfield, as these players make more passes than any other position on the pitch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
All this makes Hughton''s team talks easy......"Don''t ever pass the ball to Bradley, he''ll only lose it". [:S]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Webbo118"]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="lappinitup"]You have to feel sorry for the people who have to sit through games watching each player and recording every pass, and whether they are successful or not. Can''t be much fun. Is that what you do Indy?[/quote]Nope, they don''t call me Charles Reep [:D]I do however get damn frustrated when people decide to argue the toss about the validity of evidence purely because they don''t like the results...I wouldn''t mind, but some people seem to think that Johnson is as good as bloody Xavi at passing and it''s simply ridiculous![/quote]

How do you know it''s evidence? If I made some figures up and posted them on here, would you believe them?

[/quote]A recent study by Wikipedia found 84.3% of people give credibility to "things found on the internet".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I accept that Johnson is not the greatest passer in the team, but a 72% pass success ratio (courtesy of Whoscored.com) is not diabolical by any means. Even Snodgrass only has a 78.8% ratio, and Johnson is very, very good at breaking up opposition play. Add to that the fact that most of his passes have to be made under severe pressure and his rate is reasonable, if a bit disappointing. There''s a reason he has started virtually every game though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Webbo118"]I can tell you exactly what it is. Someone reads something on a website, sticks it on here and before you know where you are, the sheep have jumped onto yet another bandwagon, being incapable of any individual thoughts.[/quote]
Why the hell are you so angry and aggressive???

For some reason you seem to think that pointing out that there are questions over Johnson''s overall passing abilities, is some form of personal attack against him (or even you) and that by doing so, the player is having their entire game and playing ability derided. Yet this is so far from the truth it''s unreal.

NO player is perfect, there will always be elements of their game that could have been improved. Take Thierry Henry for example, in my mind one of the greatest strikers in the history of football, yet he couldn''t head a ball for toffee and everyone knows this, but it didn''t matter in the grand scheme of things because almost everything else he did was so good. If I gave you stats that showed Henry was crap at heading, it doesn''t mean I don''t rate him as a player, I''d simply be pointing out the weak part of his game.

I''ve not trashed Johnson or claimed he was a bad player, but the stats back up what I already thought - his passing is pretty crappy and is probably the weakest part of his game, and let''s be honest - If he could pass more consistently he''d already be at a bigger team!

Just because my opinion happens to coincide with stats that back it up, doesn''t make my opinion less valid or turn me into some sort of sheep that only uses the stats as a justification, but they CAN provide data to help support a viewpoint, the difference is that you seem to prefer to argue about the validity of the data rather than about what it may well indicate...
[/quote]

I am not angry and I am not aggressive. As stated before, I find it amazing that something that is published on a website can be regarded as gospel without any challenge or questioning. I am well aware that the perfect player has not been born and never will be. Lionel Messi is by some distance, in my opinion, the best player on the planet but if only he would work on his right foot! Are you sure the so-called stats back up your opinion rather than having formed it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As I said earlier in this thread I think it''s right to be a little sceptical about the OPTA stats (or any other company''s stats for that matter.) They tell part of the story, but definitely not the whole story.

My brother actually did some work for OPTA a few years back compiling the very type of stats we are talking about in this thread.

It involved sitting in a booth with a CD of the match and going through it pass by pass compiling the stats. My brother told me about a match he was doing this for which was Man Utd v Fulham.

He described a situation where Man Utd had a break with 2 players (Andy Cole & Paul Scholes) against 1 defender. They were going forward at pace and all that was required to put Scholes right through on goal was a simple 10 yard pass from Cole.

However, Cole totally overhit the pass and Scholes had to chase after the ball, only catching up with it near the corner flag. By the time he had got it the Fulham defence had got back and a great chance was totally wasted.

How was this recorded by the OPTA stats?

SUCCESSFUL PASS!

Stats tell some of the story, but not all of it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Long ball - An attempted pass of 25 yards or more.

Key pass - The final pass leading to a shot at goal from a teammate

Cross - An attempted pass from a wide position to a central attacking area

Through ball - An attempted/accurate pass between opposition players in their defensive line to find an onrushing teammate (running through on goal)

Pass success - Percentage of attempted passes that successfully found a teammate

 

Interesting! As is often said, the devil is in the detail.

1) How is the 25 yards measured and, if the pass is intercepted before it arrives at its target, how do they know if the intended pass is more or less than 25 yards?

2) If the "final pass" is received by the player 40 yards out with his back to goal and he then beats three players before having his shot on goal, is it still regarded as a final pass?

3) If the receiving player is standing still, is it still regarded as a through ball?, i.e. does he have to be onrushing?

4) Pass definition - another poster thought that a short pass is one that is "less than 10-15 metres in length". What is one of say 13 metres regarded as? He also thought a long pass was "one which is generally over 30 metres but may be slightly less depending on the situation/angle". I have to ask, what type of situation and what type of angle would change the definition? If statistics are based on such subjective data, the results produced may well be of very little value.



 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Thirsty Lizard"]As I said earlier in this thread I think it''s right to be a little sceptical about the OPTA stats (or any other company''s stats for that matter.) They tell part of the story, but definitely not the whole story. My brother actually did some work for OPTA a few years back compiling the very type of stats we are talking about in this thread. It involved sitting in a booth with a CD of the match and going through it pass by pass compiling the stats. My brother told me about a match he was doing this for which was Man Utd v Fulham. He described a situation where Man Utd had a break with 2 players (Andy Cole & Paul Scholes) against 1 defender. They were going forward at pace and all that was required to put Scholes right through on goal was a simple 10 yard pass from Cole. However, Cole totally overhit the pass and Scholes had to chase after the ball, only catching up with it near the corner flag. By the time he had got it the Fulham defence had got back and a great chance was totally wasted. How was this recorded by the OPTA stats? SUCCESSFUL PASS! Stats tell some of the story, but not all of it![/quote]

Says it all really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="Thirsty Lizard"]They were going forward at pace and all that was required to put Scholes right through on goal was a simple 10 yard pass from Cole. However, Cole totally overhit the pass and Scholes had to chase after the ball, only catching up with it near the corner flag. By the time he had got it the Fulham defence had got back and a great chance was totally wasted. How was this recorded by the OPTA stats? SUCCESSFUL PASS! Stats tell some of the story, but not all of it![/quote]Says it all really.[/quote]Actually it doesn''t...By the definitions being used, it WAS a successful pass as it went from the passing player to the receiving player without a turnover in possession, the fact that Scholes had to chase it to make this the happen was irrelevant. If they were recording something like "Completed passes whereby the receiving player needs to move less than a foot and without any difficulty in control" then you''d have a point...What this example also shows it that even passes which aren''t the best in the world can be recorded as successful as long as possession is maintained, which really heightens the example of how much more Johnson gives away possession compared to our other CM''s.With Johnson averaging 45 passes a game, we can see that he loses possession via passing 13 times a game (based on his 71.9% success rate), whereas Tettey with his 40 passes average only gives it away 7 times (83.3% success rate) - nearly half as much, and if we increased the number of passes up to 45, this would still only increase the number 8 to losses of possession via passing compared to Johnson''s 13...The stats DON''T lie - they may not tell us the whole picture or give us a perfectly clear view, but as long as they are interpreted correctly, they are a strong indicator of performance in specific areas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You can always pick over any sports analysis of this type and find anomalies and alternative interpretations, the point is that in general terms they do give an indication of what is happening on the pitch. It may not be wholly accurate and certainly won''t tell the complete story but it is a tool amongst many to judge performance. The important thing for me is how this data is used, it is not IMO a stick to beat players with but information that can be used on the training pitch to improve an individuals performance. We all want that for Jonno don''t we. He is a. Great asset to our team and will only get better with good attitude and coaching.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Didn''t Leon Britton have a better pass success rate than xavi and iniesta last season? Don''t see him fetching 35 million.

Need to stop looking at stats and what he brings to the side!!! He does his job and breaks play down, as mentioned earlier if he had amazing distribution he would be knowhere near Norwich fc.

Bassong was a giant for us this season and he apparently made 1 tackle every 120 minutes, or something stupid like that.

Can''t wait to see Johnson in midfield next season with a coule of signings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="Thirsty Lizard"]They were going forward at pace and all that was required to put Scholes right through on goal was a simple 10 yard pass from Cole. However, Cole totally overhit the pass and Scholes had to chase after the ball, only catching up with it near the corner flag. By the time he had got it the Fulham defence had got back and a great chance was totally wasted. How was this recorded by the OPTA stats? SUCCESSFUL PASS! Stats tell some of the story, but not all of it![/quote]
Says it all really.[/quote]
Actually it doesn''t...

By the definitions being used, it WAS a successful pass as it went from the passing player to the receiving player without a turnover in possession, the fact that Scholes had to chase it to make this the happen was irrelevant. If they were recording something like "Completed passes whereby the receiving player needs to move less than a foot and without any difficulty in control" then you''d have a point...

What this example also shows it that even passes which aren''t the best in the world can be recorded as successful as long as possession is maintained, which really heightens the example of how much more Johnson gives away possession compared to our other CM''s.

With Johnson averaging 45 passes a game, we can see that he loses possession via passing 13 times a game (based on his 71.9% success rate), whereas Tettey with his 40 passes average only gives it away 7 times (83.3% success rate) - nearly half as much, and if we increased the number of passes up to 45, this would still only increase the number 8 to losses of possession via passing compared to Johnson''s 13...

The stats DON''T lie - they may not tell us the whole picture or give us a perfectly clear view, but as long as they are interpreted correctly, they are a strong indicator of performance in specific areas.[/quote]

I think you have unwittingly made the point far better than anyone else could. Suggest it may be time for you to stop digging before you disappear without trace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Webbo118"]

Long ball - An attempted pass of 25 yards or more.

Key pass - The final pass leading to a shot at goal from a teammate

Cross - An attempted pass from a wide position to a central attacking area

Through ball - An attempted/accurate pass between opposition players in their defensive line to find an onrushing teammate (running through on goal)

Pass success - Percentage of attempted passes that successfully found a teammate

 

Interesting! As is often said, the devil is in the detail.

1) How is the 25 yards measured and, if the pass is intercepted before it arrives at its target, how do they know if the intended pass is more or less than 25 yards?

2) If the "final pass" is received by the player 40 yards out with his back to goal and he then beats three players before having his shot on goal, is it still regarded as a final pass?

3) If the receiving player is standing still, is it still regarded as a through ball?, i.e. does he have to be onrushing?

4) Pass definition - another poster thought that a short pass is one that is "less than 10-15 metres in length". What is one of say 13 metres regarded as? He also thought a long pass was "one which is generally over 30 metres but may be slightly less depending on the situation/angle". I have to ask, what type of situation and what type of angle would change the definition? If statistics are based on such subjective data, the results produced may well be of very little value.



 

[/quote]

Strange! No answers forthcoming?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Its telling that all uk clubs use pro zone technology as part of the overall assessment of a players contribution. This includes exactly the same type of data seen on who scored and OPTA.

As others have pointed out statistics is only a part picture, but a useful way of assessing a players contribution - by the time you have tried 1000 passes you do get to a fair assessment of a players ability. The definitions are not key here - consistency of measurement is, so that you can compare a cohort year on year and within a year - hence a stat that BJs passing overall is worse than any other regular starting midfielder last year is fair - that is not the same as saying he cant pass or that he is the worst footballer in central midfield - as distinction that too many seem un able to draw or accept.

There is a balanced place for these types of stats in any fans assessment of a player - never a sole one though - if there was not clubs would not be investing heavily in using it themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don''t know why you''re bothering ZLF, Webbo has made it perfectly clear that he thinks all stats are either made up or worthless, and ANY criticism of Johnson verges on heresy and is worth of having some us burnt at the stake...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]I don''t know why you''re bothering ZLF, Webbo has made it perfectly clear that he thinks all stats are either made up or worthless, and ANY criticism of Johnson verges on heresy and is worth of having some us burnt at the stake...
[/quote]

Not so, where have I said that and not so, where have I said that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Webbo118"]

Long ball - An attempted pass of 25 yards or more. Key pass - The final pass leading to a shot at goal from a teammate Cross - An attempted pass from a wide position to a central attacking area Through ball - An attempted/accurate pass between opposition players in their defensive line to find an onrushing teammate (running through on goal) Pass success - Percentage of attempted passes that successfully found a teammate

 

Interesting! As is often said, the devil is in the detail.

1) How is the 25 yards measured and, if the pass is intercepted before it arrives at its target, how do they know if the intended pass is more or less than 25 yards?

2) If the "final pass" is received by the player 40 yards out with his back to goal and he then beats three players before having his shot on goal, is it still regarded as a final pass?

3) If the receiving player is standing still, is it still regarded as a through ball?, i.e. does he have to be onrushing?

4) Pass definition - another poster thought that a short pass is one that is "less than 10-15 metres in length". What is one of say 13 metres regarded as? He also thought a long pass was "one which is generally over 30 metres but may be slightly less depending on the situation/angle". I have to ask, what type of situation and what type of angle would change the definition?

If statistics are based on such subjective data, the results produced may well be of very little value.

[/quote]

1) There will be a definition obviously. Each pass is logged with X and Y co-ordinates for its point of

origin and destination

2) Yes, any pass which results in a goal from the player receiving the ball before he loses possession.

3) No.  A player has to be running through for a through ball.

4)  A pass of 25 yards or more between players is a Long Pass.  The other definition was inaccurate for the whoscored data.  

Opta do far more analysis with many different pass types.  There is a whole list of definitions here for the raw opta data.

http://www.optasportspro.com/fr/a-propos/blog-d%27optapro/posts/2012/optapro%27s-event-definitions.aspx

I do find it strange how angry you are getting over some statistics.  You don''t have to be an opta analyst to see that passing is not a strength of Bradley''s game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Mr Carrow"]Throughout this thread old man![/quote]

Not so even older man. Just read it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
With age we aquire wisdom, a sense of perspective and generally a level of civility, regretably there is always the exception that proves the rule. Congratulations!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...