Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
lake district canary

Holiday Inn for sale

Recommended Posts

[quote user="lake district canary"]  The income from even just one thousand  extra seats over ten years  would be sufficient  to justify an outlay of   £7 million.  (1000 x c.£35 x 20 home matches = c. £700,000 equalling in region of £7 million over ten years). 


[/quote]

£7 million to block out the hotel and put in a few hundred seats because you don''t like the look of it or £20 million to rebuilt the City Stand to accommodate around 8,000 fans seems a no brainer to me but no doubt you disagree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Holiday Inn sponsor a new Main Stand with the necessary millions I would forgive them for their current ''carbunckle on the face of Carrow Road."

 

I''m not so sure about the stadium being renamed the "Holiday Inn Stadium." Although, as a Club with one of their hotels built into the ground the way it is, it might be appropriate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When I stay for the weekend (about once every 6 weeks) I used to stay in the Nelson, but unfortunately the Premier Inn''s have a 15 year old age limit on a family room, so we moved to the Holiday Inn, due to their limit being 21 years old.My eldest daughter and I have season tickets, but my youngest daughter and wife would also like to watch Norwich, when in the fine City, but unable to get two seats together in the ground, they are very happy to watch the match from the hotel window, and stay warm !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="lake district canary"]  The income from even just one thousand  extra seats over ten years  would be sufficient  to justify an outlay of   £7 million.  (1000 x c.£35 x 20 home matches = c. £700,000 equalling in region of £7 million over ten years). 

[/quote]

£7 million to block out the hotel and put in a few hundred seats because you don''t like the look of it or £20 million to rebuilt the City Stand to accommodate around 8,000 fans seems a no brainer to me but no doubt you disagree.

[/quote]

£20m?  And the rest.   Also, you are far more likely to fill a stadium with 1 - 2,000 extra seats than you are with 8,000 seats.   Was it you earlier in the thread that talked about the recession and people being short of money??     We may well  be stuck with the hotel, it doesn''t mean it can''t be altered, bought or negotiated with.      

In an ideal world we would rebuild the main stand, but maybe that is pie in the sky too.............

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LDC: I''m pretty sure that

1. NCFC owns half of the hotel business and is making money from it

2. they have no desire to make minor increases of stadium capacity in detriment to another income stream that is making more money than the extra capacity.

you, as a supporter may not like the hotel, it''s look or the fact that it could have had some (a few hundred at most) extra capacity there. The club knows that it is an income stream that is not reliant on the vagaries football.

There is a significant premium for a room with a pitch side view. Something in the order of at least 3-4 times the price of the equivalent tickets. it was well over £100 for 2011-12 seasons Wigna game.

The club is more likely to increase the capacity of either the Jarrold or city stands if there is proven demand. They are not going to do anything about the hotel as they see it as a benefit not a blot on the ground. You are more likely to convince fulham to demolish the cottage than you are to convince NCFC of doing anything about the hotel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="spudgfsh"]LDC: I''m pretty sure that

1. NCFC owns half of the hotel business and is making money from it

2. they have no desire to make minor increases of stadium capacity in detriment to another income stream that is making more money than the extra capacity.

you, as a supporter may not like the hotel, it''s look or the fact that it could have had some (a few hundred at most) extra capacity there. The club knows that it is an income stream that is not reliant on the vagaries football.

There is a significant premium for a room with a pitch side view. Something in the order of at least 3-4 times the price of the equivalent tickets. it was well over £100 for 2011-12 seasons Wigna game.

The club is more likely to increase the capacity of either the Jarrold or city stands if there is proven demand. They are not going to do anything about the hotel as they see it as a benefit not a blot on the ground. You are more likely to convince fulham to demolish the cottage than you are to convince NCFC of doing anything about the hotel.[/quote]

I''m sure you''re right on all points.  However, it won''t stop me and I think the majority of fans wishing the corner could be infilled in some way, or at  least, disguise what to most of us is an eyesore.     I wonder if the club has investigated all the possibilities, or is as you say, happy with the status quo.  In the likely absence of  increasing the size of either of the main stands in the near future,  this is still the easiest way to add some seats.   If the club owns half the business, or a proportion of it, they are well placed to influence or affect what happens.  

I also know this has been discussed on here before, but never have we been in a better financial position to do something that would improve the look of the stadium, help the atmosphere at matches and make supporters experience at matches better.  I just hope the club have done or will do their utmost to find a way of achieving something worthwhile in that corner of the ground.  The area in front of the hotel is a waste of space.   It  is something that should be top of the agenda.   It is not like the Cottage at Fulham,  it is simply a concrete block which benefits perhaps 100 - 150 people who are able to view from the windows - in an area where perhaps 1500 people could easily be accommodated.  Its easy to say forget it and just think about something else,  but it is pertinent and relevant to all of us who pay to watch football at CR. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The thing is, in order or use ''the space in the hotel corner'' both effectively and safely you could only add 100 to 200 (if that) seats without demolishing the hotel (which is not going to happen).

In order to provide 100-200 seats you need to have

1. a gap to the away supporters

2. safe access for supporters, stewards and police

3. facilities (toilets, food etc)

4. access to the walls of the hotel facing the pitch

if you look at the overhead shot of the ground you are talking about adding as few as a third of the snakepit of which only two thirds could be used. You couldn''t go up that much steeper than exists already as it''d not be safe (you have to evacuate people in a reasonable time).

I also wonder whether the costs involved in adding the extra 100/200 seats outweigh the amount the club would make.

The ONLY thing that could happen in that corner is for the side of the building to be painted a different colour (I''d suggest yellow and green).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
" Anyway, the sums do add up.   The income from even just one thousand 

extra seats over ten years  would be sufficient  to justify an outlay

of   £7 million.  (1000 x c.£35 x 20 home matches = c. £700,000

equalling in region of £7 million over ten years).
"What a load of old bollo !Those figures presume that every seat will be a casual ticket, If so what happens at the Wigan/Stoke type of games where we do not sell out the home tickets ?If a precentage of them were to be season tickets, if by dent of offering current casual seats as season tickets and selling these as casuals where then your £7m ? And where is your certainty that we will still be in the PL either over the next ten years ? Building cost do not reduce if we get relegated, income certainly does.A more reasoned figure is that of around £400 per seat - as in total ticket income divided by 27,000. That figure might even be lower as there would not be sponsors boxes, higher Main stand tickets etc. However, sticking with that figure we can see how irrelevant on a income basis those seats would be, given that they would generate LESS THAN HALF OF ONE PERCENT of the clubs income. And that assumes that there are NO costs in paying the hotel or constructing those seats.So we are left with LDC''s absurd rants about the aesthetics of having a hotel in the corner. Rants that remind me of a childs refusal to accept that it cannot be Xmas day every day - and ever more ridiculous squawking towards anyone who points out the impraticalities of his infantile wishes. Addressed to you directly LDC ... you are not in some superior position because of your nonsensical claims. I have never met any fan who likes the fact there is a hotel there - or doesn''t wish there was seating there instead. But I have met, and still do, fans who recognise that at the time it was a case of needs must. That were we to have spent x millions on filling in that corner plus not having the x million or so from the sale of land we may well have gone bankrupt and this debate would therefore be redundant.For those fans and the majority of others it is a''scar'' that we have to live with and will do for somewhile as we haul ourselves away from the reasons why we had to sell that land - and put as much distance from those days as possible. That will come about through money. Yes money. Money that is for the moment, generated from our league position and the consequent TV money. That''s why spending money on players is of paramount importance. Nothing else.If you think that funds should be diverted away from that cause to make the ground pleasing to your eye then you are a extremely stupid as far as this matter is concerned. As to me and a great many others what is pleasing to the eye is the PL table that has Norwich City in it.And if you don''t like seeing the hotel might I make a suggestion - keep your eyes on the pitch. It''s what most others go to Carrow Road to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the hotel generates money for the club, then good. I couldn''t care less.

"And if you don''t like seeing the hotel might I make a suggestion - keep your eyes on the pitch. It''s what most others go to Carrow Road to do."

This too. Stop whinging.

You know your argument/cause is futile when wiz agrees with you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
City 1st and BW''s Cat, you have both not bothered to read through my arguments properly otherwise you would  be a little more sympathetic, so in the nicest possible way, f**k off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
" ...I have been saying for ages that the way out of the problem of the hotel in the corner of Carrow Rd was for the club to buy it and turn it into something more suitable for adding a few seats"

"...To buy back stadium space and have the facility to create something else, even if it is a hotel with less rooms, as well as add up to 2,000 seats must be a no-brainer."

From what I can tell, your saying that the club should dip into their pockets to get rid of something you find a nuisance (which shouldn''t be considering you should be watching the game, not the ground) for your comfort.

The hotel isn''t pretty, nobody likes it, but it''s here. So hush now and get yourself to bed quietly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You are really such a twit, BW.     The whole point of this thread - and there have been some really interesting inputs from several posters - was to highlight a point in time where maybe, just maybe there may be the finances available to instigate some change.  I am not the only one who doesn''t like it and it is not going to go away on its own.    You accept that it is here to stay, unaltered and we will have to put up with it.   I on the other hand take a different view, that there may be a window of opportunity to change things, even if it is just to negotiate some seats in front of it.   You simply have closed your mind to it, would rather make disparaging remarks to me, rather than offer anything constructive, so therefore my previous comment to you remains.  I don''t have to say it again, do I?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I''ll be honest, I don''t actually mind the hotel. In fact, I think it''s one thing that makes Carrow Road instantly recognisable and slightly unique. We have a nice modern stadium, but at the same time it''s slightly higgeldy piggeldy. But that''s a good thing as its our home! You can leave your modern day mirror image bowls (see Leicester, Reading, Derby, Southampton, etc) thank you very much.

Oh, and for the record I rarely even notice the hotel as I''m usually looking atthe pitch on match day!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="lappinitup"]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Yes, I do have some design and construction experience.....[/quote]


I really don''t think Lego counts! [:''(]

[/quote]

 

I think that''s a little harsh Lapp. However, it does remind me of the role Hardy Kruger played in the film "The Flight of The Phoenix."  The rest of the crew were devastated when they learned that the designer only had experience with model aeroplanes. Nonetheless, to be fair, his ideas did eventually "get the thing off the ground."

Aha! Now I see where LDC''s thinking originated from. He''s been watching old films. [:D]

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blimey Yankee, that is an old film. The modern one sn''t too bad either, maybe LDC saw that too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Zak Van Burger"]Are we to blindly accept that the club makes money from the hotel on an annual basis or is there some evidence to support this claim?


[/quote]

 

 

I don''t recall it as a separate item in the accounts. What other category can it fall in?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The hotel seems to going well for holiday inn, so they''re NOT looking to sell. Why bother splashing the cash with high bids, for the sake of a few extra seats?

The club can do better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="flecky76"]I''ll be honest, I don''t actually mind the hotel. In fact, I think it''s one thing that makes Carrow Road instantly recognisable and slightly unique.[/quote]

 

can''t agree with that Flecky. I think that the design is awful and unimaginative. It is just a block, the sort seen in any town centre built at a peculiar angle to the pitch.

 

I wouldn''t know what the design restraints were, but if it had been built as and extended half circle or even a chevron directly angled at the pitch and enveloping the ends of the stands then it would have looked good.

 

As it is, half of the argument against it is the way it seems to have just been plonked in place with no regard the aesthetics of stadium design. The other half now, of course, is that it takes up much needed spectator space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Zak Van Burger"]Are we to blindly accept that the club makes money from the hotel on an annual basis or is there some evidence to support this claim?

[/quote]

 

Our share of the  profit from the hotel was £226,000 in 2011-12. The year before it was £265,000.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some things to consider:

a) The Hotel JV (Joint Venture) in which City has a 30% stake has leased out for 35 years the use of the hotel to an operator which has paid in recent years approx. £1m. a year to the Hotel JV. So anybody with a masterplan for this corner would have to buy out the lease from the operator assuming they were prepared to sell.

b) If I remember correctly the Hotel JV owed the bank at the 31st May 2012 approx. £10m. (hopefully in the next couple of days I will be able to look at the Hotel JV Accounts and state the actual figure). So the other Hotel JV shareholder would have to be bought out (assuming they were willing to sell) and the bank loan would have to be repaid.

c) If you had a plan to build a corner stand then you would have to cover the cost of demolition and a new stand.

 

In conclusion one hellva cost for a few thousand extra seats.

IMHO. it would be better to look at a replacement GW. stand eventually 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone?"]

Some things to consider:

a) The Hotel JV (Joint Venture) in which City has a 30% stake has leased out for 35 years the use of the hotel to an operator which has paid in recent years approx. £1m. a year to the Hotel JV. So anybody with a masterplan for this corner would have to buy out the lease from the operator assuming they were prepared to sell.

b) If I remember correctly the Hotel JV owed the bank at the 31st May 2012 approx. £10m. (hopefully in the next couple of days I will be able to look at the Hotel JV Accounts and state the actual figure). So the other Hotel JV shareholder would have to be bought out (assuming they were willing to sell) and the bank loan would have to be repaid.

c) If you had a plan to build a corner stand then you would have to cover the cost of demolition and a new stand.

 

In conclusion one hellva cost for a few thousand extra seats.

IMHO. it would be better to look at a replacement GW. stand eventually 

 

 

 

 

[/quote

Tangible if only you could have posted this a few days ago we would not have had to endure endless posts from LDC with his simplistic approach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tangible Fixed Assets anyone?Some things to consider:a) The Hotel JV (Joint Venture) in which City has a 30% stake has leased out for 35 years the use of the hotel to an operator which has paid in recent years approx. £1m. a year to the Hotel JV. So anybody with a masterplan for this corner would have to buy out the lease from the operator assuming they were prepared to sell.     b) If I remember correctly the Hotel JV owed the bank at the 31st May 2012 approx. £10m. (hopefully in the next couple of days I will be able to look at the Hotel JV Accounts and state the actual figure). So the other Hotel JV shareholder would have to be bought out (assuming they were willing to sell) and the bank loan would have to be repaid.      c) If you had a plan to build a corner stand then you would have to cover the cost of demolition and a new stand.    In conclusion one hellva cost for a few thousand extra seats. IMHO. it would be better to look at a replacement GW. stand eventually   

Demolition would not be necessary imo.   A minimum of alterations would be needed to create a lower tier of seats, only the lower two floors of the hotel would be affected, with the stand effectively joined  into the bottom two levels of the hotel.   A more adventurous scheme would be to change the window arrangement above the new lower tier, above the second floor level, to be more of a general view, in the form of  corporate or family boxes, or even balconies.   The potential for extra income would be quite big if more people were allowed to view from the upper floors of the hotel.  As has been said by Shuck, only  two or three people can view  at the moment from each room, which seems ridiculous for such a large facade facing the pitch.   Ok, the lease may have to be bought out, but over say ten years and with the extra income from the new lower tier  and the many more viewers from higher up,  the potential is there to recoup any loss -  and the hotel would still be a hotel with all the income from that, too.     

People assume that the whole hotel would have to go, meaning a huge rebuild cost, but that is not necessary as the space is already there to create a lower tier - and simple alterations to the facade higher up would not cost that much.    As the building cost would not be that great in that situation, the only major cost would be buying out the lease or offering enough to tempt the lease holder to accept any alteration plan.  

The original plan for the hotel suited the time it was built and there is nothing wrong with that.  However, times have changed, we are not the club we were six years ago and could be in a good position to do something positive to improve the stadium without having to build a whole new stand - which as many have said - would be folly in these times.   A lesser plan, which would involve improvements to the corner of the stadium - and still retain interest in the hotel, could be a step in the right direction and a good project for the CE to get his teeth into.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You should mail McNally with your plan LDC, see if he gives any more of a crap than anyone here does.

Or maybe just admit your "plan" is bobbins and stop going on and on?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...