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lake district canary

Holiday Inn for sale

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My mum is from Dundee and has discovered that the Holiday Inn there was for sale recently for £4.4 million.     I have been saying for ages that the way out of the problem of the hotel in the corner of Carrow Rd was for the club to buy it and turn it into something more suitable for adding a few seats.    Plus the hotel, or what remained of it could be used to raise income for the club, perhaps in some other way, therefore would be an investment.

£4.4 m  is not peanuts and the hotel in Norwich would probably be more, but still it must be considered an option.   I have been shouted down several times for expressing this view  but no-one has come up with a decent argument as to why this should not be a sensible solution.   To buy back stadium space and have the facility to create something else, even if it is a hotel with less rooms, as well as add up to 2,000 seats must be a no-brainer.

It may not be possible for reasons I don''t know, but money talks and at the right price this is a way to develop the stadium both pitch side and behind the scenes. 

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That damn hotel is a blot on the Carrow Road landscape, who was responsible for that, Doomcastor?

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Absolutely agree with LDC''s thinking on that corner - and it''s the kind of medium to long-view infrastructure thinking which the club can now seriously consider instead of just dreaming about. As LDC says money talks and even if the hotel group don''t want to sell out a decent wedge pushed their way might get them to agree to restructuring the building at refurb time a bit further down the line - it''s been open six or seven years now so that time can''t be too far off in the modern world.

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I am currently staying in the hotel, for the first time and whilst I am enjoying the novelty of looking out onto the stadium, this space could be better used...a huge corner fill in enabling a few thousand more spectators to see games live...but I don''t know how the figures stack up!

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Holiday Inn hotels are run as franchises so if the one in Norwich is not for sale there is the first hurdle.

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[quote user="Hooleyfan"]I am currently staying in the hotel, for the first time and whilst I am enjoying the novelty of looking out onto the stadium, this space could be better used...a huge corner fill in enabling a few thousand more spectators to see games live...but I don''t know how the figures stack up![/quote]

 

At the time it would have cost more money than we could afford for not many seats. Whether we should have left the space vacant (bringing in no revenue) in the hope of better times ahead is a question.

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How would we add seats there short of knocking the hotel down? I imagine it would be quite a lot of money just to add an extra couple of hundred here or there - I''d probably put this on the backburner until we''ve got the money to buy it, knock it down and build a whole new stand. Buying it and making smaller temporary changes just seems like wasting money for little return.

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I don''t know but I''d imagine we have leased that corner of the ground to the hotel company on a long lease rather than sold the land to them.

I''d forget the possibility of anything happening to that corner for quite a while.

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The money we got from the hotel deal effectively kept us from going into adminisration at the time. If that had happened do you think we would be in the position we are now. The club have maintained that seats in corners are not cost effective or the best value for additional capacity.

I think we can forget any idea of stadium expansion as there is there is not the demand for the extra seats. When first promoted the club talked about expansion afyer a couple of seasons in this league. Its not even on the clubs radar any more. Away followings are declining quite seriously which frees up enough seats to satisfy home support for most games. Take away the obvious top 5 or 6 games and seats were readily availble up to match day.

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[quote user="Aggy"]How would we add seats there short of knocking the hotel down? I imagine it would be quite a lot of money just to add an extra couple of hundred here or there - I''d probably put this on the backburner until we''ve got the money to buy it, knock it down and build a whole new stand. Buying it and making smaller temporary changes just seems like wasting money for little return.[/quote]

What will be there is space for at least 600 seats in front of the existing building.   It would not take a huge rebuilding to add another 400 seats going up, rather than back, in the mould of theatre type boxes -  say four floors of four boxes on each level, each holding up to 20 people - thus retaining the infrastructure of the hotel - and the ability to create income. That is a thousand seats extra per match, say conservatively,  £35 per seat,  20 home matches a season, that is 35 x20 x 1000 = £700,000 per season.   Over five seasons that is £3.5 million.   Plus the income from the hotel which would still be substantial.  In the picture below, you can see the terracing would go up to the top of the black  section of the hotel, the commercial style boxes would go above that, without great alteration to the existing structure.  This isn''t rocket science, I know,  but where there is a will there is a way.    This could happen if enough people want it to happen and would not cost a fortune, would add to the matchday experience for everyone, generate   £700,000 minimum per season, probably a lot more, in income, plus the hotel could still be a hotel.   If the powers that be really care about the club they will make something like this happen.   1,000 seats may not seem much, but it is about quality, not quantity.  Cost would be minimal, the ground would look better, retain the noise levels better, generate income, so really its a no-brainer. 

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"I think we can forget any idea of stadium expansion as there is there is not the demand for the extra seats. "

If there''s no demand, why are are a couple of thousand people on the waiting list for a season ticket?

Wouldn''t that pretty much fill a corner stand?

That''s not me saying it would be a good idea financially. I just don''t agree that hat demand isn''t there.

How many of those on the waiting list are the ones currently buying casual tickets I wonder?

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You have to remember this corner is the vehicle access to pitchside for emergency vehicles which would mean very few seats being fitted in at the lower level.  It would be great to see a corner infill but it just isn''t going to happen.

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I don''t think there are too many who particularly like the hotel, but it is there and I can''t see much chance/point/need to get rid right now even if we can. It does generate an income stream (which is admittedly dwarfed by others at the mo), but we''ve been over this before on the cost:benefit and how the configuration would work with away fans, as we lose quite a number for segregation already.

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[quote user="Blofield Canary"]

You have to remember this corner is the vehicle access to pitchside for emergency vehicles which would mean very few seats being fitted in at the lower level.  It would be great to see a corner infill but it just isn''t going to happen.

[/quote]

Even with vehicle access, there is room for seats around and above that.  I accept that it probably isn''t going to happen for various reasons, but imo it could if there was enough pressure for it.   If anyone can do it McNally can - and it would go down very well with fans if he could bring this about.   It would give the stadium a completed look and get rid of the travisty that is stuck in the corner at the moment.  

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For about the millionth time, corner infills are amazingly non cost effective, for the amount of seats you gain, its really more about aesthetics than practicalities.

As previously said, the hotel deal suited us at the time, we''ll just have to learn to live with it.

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LDC this is an interesting argument you put up, interested to know if you have some Engineering/Construction experience or, is this all guess work?

Whilst acknowledging that now we have moved on it would be best NOT to have the Hotel, as mentioned previosuly, at the time this was a decision that was probably crucial in respect of the club''s future. Considering the situation a c;ub of similar size to us ,Coventry has for example, they find themselves now without a ground, then the Hotel was a small price to pay as a contributor to where we are today.

I''m also not sure that having a Hotel as part of the ground is such a bad thing, and I cant really understand why some are so annoyed about it. That said, it is not as carefully designed as it could have been and a more thought out intigrated structure allowing for some football viewing even if it is all hospitality would have been much better.

 As for building even a small seating section in front of it, wouldnt this then lessen the income of the Hotel by those rooms looking out onto the back of a stand?  I like the boxes idea though, could even add a large screen on top......but thats yet another topic that divides opinion isnt it. 

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Blofield Canary"]

You have to remember this corner is the vehicle access to pitchside for emergency vehicles which would mean very few seats being fitted in at the lower level.  It would be great to see a corner infill but it just isn''t going to happen.

[/quote]

Even with vehicle access, there is room for seats around and above that.  I accept that it probably isn''t going to happen for various reasons, but imo it could if there was enough pressure for it.   If anyone can do it McNally can - and it would go down very well with fans if he could bring this about.   It would give the stadium a completed look and get rid of the travisty that is stuck in the corner at the moment.  

[/quote]

 

That was his plan for this season, and it never happened. Someone posted here quite recently (and it looked as if they knew were talking about) saying that Holiday Inn were opposed.

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[quote user="Dubai Mark"]

LDC this is an interesting argument you put up, interested to know if you have some Engineering/Construction experience or, is this all guess work? Whilst acknowledging that now we have moved on it would be best NOT to have the Hotel, as mentioned previosuly, at the time this was a decision that was probably crucial in respect of the club''s future. Considering the situation a c;ub of similar size to us ,Coventry has for example, they find themselves now without a ground, then the Hotel was a small price to pay as a contributor to where we are today.  I''m also not sure that having a Hotel as part of the ground is such a bad thing, and I cant really understand why some are so annoyed about it. That said, it is not as carefully designed as it could have been and a more thought out intigrated structure allowing for some football viewing even if it is all hospitality would have been much better.   As for building even a small seating section in front of it, wouldnt this then lessen the income of the Hotel by those rooms looking out onto the back of a stand?  I like the boxes idea though, could even add a large screen on top......but thats yet another topic that divides opinion isnt it. 

[/quote]

Yes, I do have some design and construction experience and the one thing I have learned is that anything is possible.    People who keep knocking this idea back are just closed minded  about it.  Most of us would prefer the hotel to be hidden and seats in front of it. It could happen.  The rooms you mention behind where the seats would be would be taken up with access and possibly catering facilities for the new seating area.  Yes, it ,means a big re-organisation of the hotel and having less rooms,  but there are pros and cons in everything.      Financially, there will be drawbacks, but there will be gains as well.   It may just be too big a project with too many obstacles - but the end product would be a win win situation for everyone.  Holiday Inn would have to be prepared to sell the hotel back to us, time taken to rebuild the front,  re-open the hotel as an NCFC hotel, albeit with less rooms.  

It would be a long term investment in the ground,  extra seats and boxes, a hotel to generate more income - and for what - a cost of perhaps £6 million to buy the hotel,   £2-3  million on conversion.    Even at a total cost of £10 million pounds if it proved to be that much, the income generated over 5 - 10 years would comfortably more than cover that.  

Its a question of do the club really want it to happen, rather than saying "it won''t happen". 

It could and it should happen. 

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When we play the Eagles next season the Barclay can sing to the Palace fans......

[8] Welcome to the Hotel Carrowfornia [8]

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Im not a fan of the hotel, yet Ive never seen that corner as a massively practical place to have a stand;Its the emergency entrance to the pitch which would limit seats already, it would require a large amount of the seats to be covered in netting due to the proximity of the away fans.... whats more having that no mans land between the barclay and the away area just adds to the atmosphere in my opinion. But I think the biggest thing to pick up on is the cost for what wouldnt be a huge ammount of return and a large pay back time as a result. The engineering for the curved metal of the stand makes it a complicated and vastly more expensive structure to build, and thats before we have even ''bought the hotel, lost its cut of the revenue and knocked it down''. This has even been spoken about before in the club, im sure some quotes can be dug up on how corner infills really dont benifit the club in the short or medium term. We are looking at a project that would end up being close to maybe half the cost of the City stand being rebuilt. I just think if we are going to address stands for me its got to be the City stand as a priority and frankly viewing the the corner as an eye sore or symbol  of a previous reigem we didnt like is just acting on knee jerk, its a finacial mine field that I highly doubt the board will ever walk into. Would I have liked a stand there orignal, yeah why not. Would I have wanted the club to have gone into administration because of it, certainly not. Do I want the club to spend vast amounts of money satisfying a grudge the fans have for something that isnt cost effective and actually provides (though small) additional revenue.. No. City stand is the priorit... we can add 5 times the ammount of seats as that corner and improve practical facilites while we are at it.

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[quote user="Mello Yello"]

When we play the Eagles next season the Barclay can sing to the Palace fans......

[8] Welcome to the Hotel Carrowfornia [8]

[/quote]If the bar prices are anything to go by, it''s more like the "Hotel Can''t Afford Ya".

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Just in response to people saying "there isn''t demand for tickets" and "they are readily available before matches", I would say, try getting two tickets together as a casual fan. Nigh on impossible.

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[quote user="birchfest"]  But I think the biggest thing to pick up on is the cost for what wouldnt be a huge ammount of return and a large pay back time as a result. The engineering for the curved metal of the stand makes it a complicated and vastly more expensive structure to build, and thats before we have even ''bought the hotel, lost its cut of the revenue and knocked it down''. This has even been spoken about before in the club, im sure some quotes can be dug up on how corner infills really dont benifit the club in the short or medium term.No. City stand is the priorit... we can add 5 times the ammount of seats as that corner and improve practical facilites while we are at it. [/quote]

I think the scale of what I  am suggesting is less than knocking down the existing hotel.  Merely adding to it at the front with a low level seating area which would not cost a fortune.  Yes, it would affect the hotel and something would have to be done - imo buying the hotel as a future investment.   The seats integrated would generate a significant income and the emergency access could remain, and could be integrated between the end of the infill and the away section thus creating the barrier needed between away and home fans, with netting or screen where needed.  

The City stand is a much more thorny problem, larger in scale and in cost and detrement to the ground while it is being built - and no guarentee of it being filled every week.    The hotel infill, for all the difficulties there may be in organising it, should be done first imo.  It will generate income and the hotel would still be there behind it, to generate yet more income, either for the Holiday Inn owners or NCFC if they bought it outright.

Its not as big a project as some are making it out.   It is more an effort of will to make it happen.

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[quote user="splutcho"]Just in response to people saying "there isn''t demand for tickets" and "they are readily available before matches", I would say, try getting two tickets together as a casual fan. Nigh on impossible.[/quote]This!I attended 12 home games this year, some popular (Man U, Arsenal), some not so (Fulham, Southampton).Only 3 times was I able to get a ticket to take a friend or family member with me. Once sitting behind a pole in the corner, and then other we were not next to each other, but I was able to get 2 seats, one behind the other.The only time it is different is when away tickets get returned from the away team, and so they have a whole extra bay in the Jarrold to sell. You need to monitor this though, as they go on with no warning, and can sell out fast when they do go on sale.I managed to get a seat in the "top of the terrace" restaurant area for the West Brom game, which I assume were unsold catering packages. Again. I just had to monitor online to pick that up. It was strange though. It''s like listening to the atmosphere through the glass you see at the counter of a bank of post office.Anyway, to get back to the point. The demand is there for more seats, and not just for the big games.

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Blofield Canary"]

You have to remember this corner is the vehicle access to pitchside for emergency vehicles which would mean very few seats being fitted in at the lower level.  It would be great to see a corner infill but it just isn''t going to happen.

[/quote]


Even with vehicle access, there is room for seats around and above that.  I accept that it probably isn''t going to happen for various reasons, but imo it could if there was enough pressure for it.   If anyone can do it McNally can - and it would go down very well with fans if he could bring this about.   It would give the stadium a completed look and get rid of the travisty that is stuck in the corner at the moment.  



[/quote]

The infill on the opposite corner in the River end has the same sort of Vehicle entrance, Am I right to assume it could be done in the Barclay corner

 

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[quote user="lake district canary"]Yes, I do have some design and construction experience.....[/quote]

I really don''t think Lego counts! [:''(]

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"tom cavendish"The long-term solution will be a new stadium.

Interesting. Whereabouts do you think would be a good site?

On second thoughts. ......

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