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[quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.

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[quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]Indeed, but it was obvious that as soon as an inevitable cyclical recession occurred that we would not be able to balance the books day to day as commitments without any control had been made on PFI, welfare, public sector, immigration et al that were totally unsustainable once tax revenues fell due to falling GDP. We are all now unfortunately reaping the whirlwind from 13 years of  ''socialist'' profligacy for decades to come.  

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[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]Indeed, but it was obvious that as soon as an inevitable cyclical recession occurred that we would not be able to balance the books day to day as commitments without any control had been made on PFI, welfare, public sector, immigration et al that were totally unsustainable once tax revenues fell due to falling GDP. We are all now unfortunately reaping the whirlwind from 13 years of  ''socialist'' profligacy for decades to come.   [/quote]Well, we got there in the end.

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Wise after the event?

Paul, the “socialist profligacy” argument would be more convincing if it were not for the following:

1. Right up to world economic crisis, the Conservatives pledged to match Labour’s spending plans “pound for pound.”

E.g. 3rd September 2007

“Mr Osborne said: "The result of adopting these spending totals is that under a Conservative government there will be real increases in spending on public services, year after year....The charge from our opponents that we will cut services becomes transparently false."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6975536.stm

2. There is no evidence at all that George Osborne has any understanding of the economic crisis that was about to hit the world. Indeed, he went out of the way to praise the “Irish Economic miracle” – no sign that he spotted “inevitable cyclical recession.”

“Ireland stands as a shining example of the art of the possible in long-term economic policymaking, and that is why I am in Dublin: to listen and to learn …They have much to teach us, if only we are willing to learn.”

No sign there of the wisdom that has been claimed after the event.

http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2010/11/osbornes-paean-to-the-irish-economy/

3. What is even more worrying is that there is every sign that he is seeking to create his own bubble to try to claim that the economy has “recovered” in time for the election. Much of government policy is directed at encouraging people to borrow more. The “help to buy scheme” for example, is potentially a disaster that will cost the taxpayer many billions of pounds in the future.

“If anyone other than the government manipulated a market to this extent, it would be illegal. And anyone scammed into buying a house at today’s prices — and in particular a fast-depreciating new build with a locked-in mortgage lender — would one day be able to sue for hundreds of thousands of pounds.

They’d probably want to sue in about five years — once they had started paying ‘loan fees’ linked to RPI inflation on the bit of the mortgage the government guaranteed.”

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8915781/osbornes-bubble/

The only person that emerges from this with an economic reputation enhanced is Vince Cable, who has unfortunately been marginalised within the coalition.

For those interested in a more objective look at the economy, last night’s “Newsnight” was rather good – particularly the “charts discussion” at the end.

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[quote user="TCCANARY"]

[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="whoareyou"]TBH i don''t think i will be votingh for any of them at the next election as none of them really know what they are doing but Ed doesn''t even convince himself when he opens his mouth.If him and Miliband are in charge next time, we will be bankrupt within a year and there will be no money for anything. We are completely at the behest of those who are lending the government money to fund its deficit.[/quote]Well, it''s the Bank of England who are printing billions through quantitative easing who are purchasing the government bonds that are keeping us going. If we were in the Euro we would truly be in a mess as we would have to borrow from the ECB as the likes of  Greece are doing.  We will all pay though via the knock-on side-effects of inflation in the long-run.  [/quote]

The bit in bold type should be moved to the ''MYTH'' thread.

 

 

[/quote]

Exactly!

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[quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]Indeed, but it was obvious that as soon as an inevitable cyclical recession occurred that we would not be able to balance the books day to day as commitments without any control had been made on PFI, welfare, public sector, immigration et al that were totally unsustainable once tax revenues fell due to falling GDP. We are all now unfortunately reaping the whirlwind from 13 years of  ''socialist'' profligacy for decades to come.   [/quote]Well, we got there in the end.[/quote]

And this ^^^^^^

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"Well, it''s the Bank of England who are printing billions through quantitative easing who are purchasing the government bonds that are keeping us going. If we were in the Euro we would truly be in a mess as we would have to borrow from the ECB as the likes of Greece are doing."

Why is this myth?

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[quote user="macdougall sperm"]

[quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]Indeed, but it was obvious that as soon as an inevitable cyclical recession occurred that we would not be able to balance the books day to day as commitments without any control had been made on PFI, welfare, public sector, immigration et al that were totally unsustainable once tax revenues fell due to falling GDP. We are all now unfortunately reaping the whirlwind from 13 years of  ''socialist'' profligacy for decades to come.   [/quote]Well, we got there in the end.[/quote]

And this ^^^^^^

[/quote]

I don''t understand. Are you saying we shouldn''t discuss the effects of immigration on our country?

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[quote user="The Punkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]

Which multinational companies are "now far more wealthy and powerful" than the UK?

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[quote user=" Badger"]"Well, it''s the Bank of England who are printing billions through quantitative easing who are purchasing the government bonds that are keeping us going. If we were in the Euro we would truly be in a mess as we would have to borrow from the ECB as the likes of Greece are doing."

Why is this myth?[/quote]I''d also be interested to hear a cogent answer from the ''enlightened'' lefties instead of their constant rubbishing of factual information..... 

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[quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]Indeed, but it was obvious that as soon as an inevitable cyclical recession occurred that we would not be able to balance the books day to day as commitments without any control had been made on PFI, welfare, public sector, immigration et al that were totally unsustainable once tax revenues fell due to falling GDP. We are all now unfortunately reaping the whirlwind from 13 years of  ''socialist'' profligacy for decades to come.   [/quote]Well, we got there in the end.[/quote]The left are in denial and screaming ''racism'' as usual when anybody mentions that immigration may be a cost to the UK taxpayer.  Just look up information on the higher crime rate proportionately (impacting prisons, courts, police etc) , greatly increased birth rate proportionately (impacting on hospitals, schools, welfare etc), language problems (impacting translation support, welfare) and increased competition for employment resulting in high unemployment of our own youngsters and thus also impacting welfare costs.  Then we have silly EU child benefit rules which mean we are paying out for 40,000 +   children in Poland whose fathers work here.

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[quote user="paul moy"]

The left are in denial and screaming ''racism'' as usual when anybody mentions that immigration may be a cost to the UK taxpayer.  Just look up information on the higher crime rate proportionately (impacting prisons, courts, police etc) , greatly increased birth rate proportionately (impacting on hospitals, schools, welfare etc), language problems (impacting translation support, welfare) and increased competition for employment resulting in high unemployment of our own youngsters and thus also impacting welfare costs.  Then we have silly EU child benefit rules which mean we are paying out for 40,000 +   children in Poland whose fathers work here. [/quote]

 

You do know it was a Tory government that took us into the EU?

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[quote user="Rock The Boat"][quote user="macdougall sperm"]

[quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]Indeed, but it was obvious that as soon as an inevitable cyclical recession occurred that we would not be able to balance the books day to day as commitments without any control had been made on PFI, welfare, public sector, immigration et al that were totally unsustainable once tax revenues fell due to falling GDP. We are all now unfortunately reaping the whirlwind from 13 years of  ''socialist'' profligacy for decades to come.   [/quote]Well, we got there in the end.[/quote]

And this ^^^^^^

[/quote]

I don''t understand. Are you saying we shouldn''t discuss the effects of immigration on our country?

[/quote]

I''m saying that without immigration and the subsequent cheap workforce our economy would be in much worse shape that it currently is. And you can file that under FACT. 

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[quote user="paul moy"][quote user=" Badger"]"Well, it''s the Bank of England who are printing billions through quantitative easing who are purchasing the government bonds that are keeping us going. If we were in the Euro we would truly be in a mess as we would have to borrow from the ECB as the likes of Greece are doing."

Why is this myth?[/quote]I''d also be interested to hear a cogent answer from the ''enlightened'' lefties instead of their constant rubbishing of factual information..... 

[/quote]

Because ''quantitative easing'' is a hilarious euphemism for simply printing more money backed by nothing. Ever heard of Weimar hyperinflation?  

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[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]Indeed, but it was obvious that as soon as an inevitable cyclical recession occurred that we would not be able to balance the books day to day as commitments without any control had been made on PFI, welfare, public sector, immigration et al that were totally unsustainable once tax revenues fell due to falling GDP. We are all now unfortunately reaping the whirlwind from 13 years of  ''socialist'' profligacy for decades to come.   [/quote]Well, we got there in the end.[/quote]The left are in denial and screaming ''racism'' as usual when anybody mentions that immigration may be a cost to the UK taxpayer.  Just look up information on the higher crime rate proportionately (impacting prisons, courts, police etc) , greatly increased birth rate proportionately (impacting on hospitals, schools, welfare etc), language problems (impacting translation support, welfare) and increased competition for employment resulting in high unemployment of our own youngsters and thus also impacting welfare costs.  Then we have silly EU child benefit rules which mean we are paying out for 40,000 +   children in Poland whose fathers work here. [/quote]

But you choose to conveniently ignore the contribution of an (exploited) immigrant workforce to our economy. How convenient. 

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[quote user="macdougalls perm"][quote user="Rock The Boat"][quote user="macdougall sperm"]

[quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]Indeed, but it was obvious that as soon as an inevitable cyclical recession occurred that we would not be able to balance the books day to day as commitments without any control had been made on PFI, welfare, public sector, immigration et al that were totally unsustainable once tax revenues fell due to falling GDP. We are all now unfortunately reaping the whirlwind from 13 years of  ''socialist'' profligacy for decades to come.   [/quote]Well, we got there in the end.[/quote]

And this ^^^^^^

[/quote]

I don''t understand. Are you saying we shouldn''t discuss the effects of immigration on our country?

[/quote]

I''m saying that without immigration and the subsequent cheap workforce our economy would be in much worse shape that it currently is. And you can file that under FACT. 

[/quote]

 

There are always downsides as well as benefits to belonging to any large organisation. But overall belonging to the EU has brought the UK trading benefits that it would not enjoy if it wasn''t a member. And this will only increase if the mooted mega US-EU trade deal goes ahead. The UK would really be out in the cold if it wasn''t part of that. And not just economically. The UK''s political influence in the world, such as it is, comes from being part of the EU. Otherwise we are just another middle-ranking nation. The "special relationship" with the US does not exist. The only country with which the US has such a tie is Israel.

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"You do know it was a Tory government that took us into the EU?"away with you and your'' factual information''I want to hear more about how the British have been banned from selling hedgehog flavoured cucumbers and how Gordon Brown wrecked the US economy after years of enforcing socialist profligacy.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="macdougalls perm"][quote user="Rock The Boat"][quote user="macdougall sperm"]

[quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]Indeed, but it was obvious that as soon as an inevitable cyclical recession occurred that we would not be able to balance the books day to day as commitments without any control had been made on PFI, welfare, public sector, immigration et al that were totally unsustainable once tax revenues fell due to falling GDP. We are all now unfortunately reaping the whirlwind from 13 years of  ''socialist'' profligacy for decades to come.   [/quote]Well, we got there in the end.[/quote]

And this ^^^^^^

[/quote]

I don''t understand. Are you saying we shouldn''t discuss the effects of immigration on our country?

[/quote]

I''m saying that without immigration and the subsequent cheap workforce our economy would be in much worse shape that it currently is. And you can file that under FACT. 

[/quote]

 

There are always downsides as well as benefits to belonging to any large organisation. But overall belonging to the EU has brought the UK trading benefits that it would not enjoy if it wasn''t a member. And this will only increase if the mooted mega US-EU trade deal goes ahead. The UK would really be out in the cold if it wasn''t part of that. And not just economically. The UK''s political influence in the world, such as it is, comes from being part of the EU. Otherwise we are just another middle-ranking nation. The "special relationship" with the US does not exist. The only country with which the US has such a tie is Israel.

[/quote]

I agree with what you are saying here completely but I don''t see how it relates even vaguely to the benefits of immigration? Can you enlighten me please?

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[quote user="paul moy"](Snip)The left are in denial and screaming ''racism'' as usual when anybody mentions that immigration may be a cost to the UK taxpayer.  Just look up information on the higher crime rate proportionately (impacting prisons, courts, police etc) , greatly increased birth rate proportionately (impacting on hospitals, schools, welfare etc), language problems (impacting translation support, welfare) and increased competition for employment resulting in high unemployment of our own youngsters and thus also impacting welfare costs.  Then we have silly EU child benefit rules which mean we are paying out for 40,000 +   children in Poland whose fathers work here. [/quote]Or alternatively look up the information on lower rates of crime proportionately in areas of high immigration. As stated  by Chief Police officers.

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[quote user="macdougallsperm"][quote user="Rock The Boat"][quote user="macdougall sperm"]

[quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]Indeed, but it was obvious that as soon as an inevitable cyclical recession occurred that we would not be able to balance the books day to day as commitments without any control had been made on PFI, welfare, public sector, immigration et al that were totally unsustainable once tax revenues fell due to falling GDP. We are all now unfortunately reaping the whirlwind from 13 years of  ''socialist'' profligacy for decades to come.   [/quote]Well, we got there in the end.[/quote]

And this ^^^^^^

[/quote]

I don''t understand. Are you saying we shouldn''t discuss the effects of immigration on our country?

[/quote]

I''m saying that without immigration and the subsequent cheap workforce our economy would be in much worse shape that it currently is. And you can file that under FACT. 

[/quote]

There is good immigration and there is bad immigration.

Good immigration is where incomers have valuable skillsets that are needed in this country or have considerable sums of money to invest in businesses and jobs.

Good immigration is where the incomers are prepared to integrate into a British culture. I think the vast majority of people welcome this kind of immigration.

Bad immigration is where incomers have nothing to offer, live on benefits, welfare, take up social housing that should go to indigenous people, fill schools with non-English speaking kids that hold back the progress of the class, use the health services without making social contributions.

Bad immigration is where incomers don''t learn the English language, reject our culture, and expect ''special treatment'' as minorities.

It''s a very poor argument to say that immigrants are to be seen as a cheap workforce!

If you go to Boston in Licolnshire, you can see the effects of East European workers working for less than minimum wage in the agriculture industry. They undercut the pay of local people forcing more local people into unemployment, and increasing social problems.

Fine if you are a gangmaster or employing a cheap nanny to look after your kids. Then you make money out of unskilled immigrants. But it is the rest of us who have to pay the social costs of immigration.

The right sort of immigration is ok, but we simply can''t allow unfettered, wholesale immigration to continue in this country.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="macdougalls perm"][quote user="Rock The Boat"][quote user="macdougall sperm"]

[quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]Indeed, but it was obvious that as soon as an inevitable cyclical recession occurred that we would not be able to balance the books day to day as commitments without any control had been made on PFI, welfare, public sector, immigration et al that were totally unsustainable once tax revenues fell due to falling GDP. We are all now unfortunately reaping the whirlwind from 13 years of  ''socialist'' profligacy for decades to come.   [/quote]Well, we got there in the end.[/quote]

And this ^^^^^^

[/quote]

I don''t understand. Are you saying we shouldn''t discuss the effects of immigration on our country?

[/quote]

I''m saying that without immigration and the subsequent cheap workforce our economy would be in much worse shape that it currently is. And you can file that under FACT. 

[/quote]

 

There are always downsides as well as benefits to belonging to any large organisation. But overall belonging to the EU has brought the UK trading benefits that it would not enjoy if it wasn''t a member. And this will only increase if the mooted mega US-EU trade deal goes ahead. The UK would really be out in the cold if it wasn''t part of that. And not just economically. The UK''s political influence in the world, such as it is, comes from being part of the EU. Otherwise we are just another middle-ranking nation. The "special relationship" with the US does not exist. The only country with which the US has such a tie is Israel.

[/quote]Not what Americans think PurpleAccording to Gallup we are still America''s best friend (although I would have said Australia but that was not asked)For

each of the following countries, please say whether you consider it an

ally of the United States, friendly, but not an ally, unfriendly, or an

enemy of the United States.Great BritainAlly 66%Friendly, but not an ally 25%Unfriendly 2%Enemy 1%IsraelAlly 46%Friendly, but not an ally 32%Unfriendly 10%Enemy 6%

I wouldn''t fancy meeting the 1% who think we are an enemy though. Probably duelling Banjo and Squeel like a piggy territory[;)]

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[quote user="Nuff Said"][quote user="paul moy"](Snip)The left are in denial and screaming ''racism'' as usual when anybody mentions that immigration may be a cost to the UK taxpayer.  Just look up information on the higher crime rate proportionately (impacting prisons, courts, police etc) , greatly increased birth rate proportionately (impacting on hospitals, schools, welfare etc), language problems (impacting translation support, welfare) and increased competition for employment resulting in high unemployment of our own youngsters and thus also impacting welfare costs.  Then we have silly EU child benefit rules which mean we are paying out for 40,000 +   children in Poland whose fathers work here. [/quote]Or alternatively look up the information on lower rates of crime proportionately in areas of high immigration. As stated  by Chief Police officers.[/quote]

"Criminal gangs from Romania are responsible for a boom in cash machine card thefts.

Over the past year the number of thefts related to ATMs has trebled and police intelligence suggests more than 90 per cent are linked to Romanian immigrants.

There were some 7,572 cash machine card thefts in the first four months of the year, up from 2,553 during the same period in 2012."

Source: Financial Fraud Action, which is responsible for tackling plastic card fraud on behalf of banks

...And the Romanians are not officially allowed in until January next year.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

There are always downsides as well as benefits to belonging to any large organisation. But overall belonging to the EU has brought the UK trading benefits that it would not enjoy if it wasn''t a member. And this will only increase if the mooted mega US-EU trade deal goes ahead. The UK would really be out in the cold if it wasn''t part of that.

[/quote]And if the EU had remained just a trading bloc then most people would be happy to stay in. Unfortunately we have lost control of all manner of other stuff without the electorate giving so much as a "by your leave". IMO this democratic defecit will eventually bring the whole thing crashing down. The financial crisis is not over, it''s just been kicked a little further down the road. Time will tell but I can''t see the Euro elite being able to hold this together for much longer.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="macdougalls perm"][quote user="Rock The Boat"][quote user="macdougall sperm"]

[quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="whoareyou"]As mentioned governments can no longer dictate much in the way of economic policy because so many multinational companies are now far more wealthy and powerful than governments of most countries.[/quote]

This is the point imo. Arguing over which party caused the recession is just a red herring.

It was caused by these multinational companies and powerful bankers etc.

The Ed Balls and George Osbornes of this world are just the puppets in the financial game.[/quote]Indeed, but it was obvious that as soon as an inevitable cyclical recession occurred that we would not be able to balance the books day to day as commitments without any control had been made on PFI, welfare, public sector, immigration et al that were totally unsustainable once tax revenues fell due to falling GDP. We are all now unfortunately reaping the whirlwind from 13 years of  ''socialist'' profligacy for decades to come.   [/quote]Well, we got there in the end.[/quote]

And this ^^^^^^

[/quote]

I don''t understand. Are you saying we shouldn''t discuss the effects of immigration on our country?

[/quote]

I''m saying that without immigration and the subsequent cheap workforce our economy would be in much worse shape that it currently is. And you can file that under FACT. 

[/quote]

 

There are always downsides as well as benefits to belonging to any large organisation. But overall belonging to the EU has brought the UK trading benefits that it would not enjoy if it wasn''t a member. And this will only increase if the mooted mega US-EU trade deal goes ahead. The UK would really be out in the cold if it wasn''t part of that. And not just economically. The UK''s political influence in the world, such as it is, comes from being part of the EU. Otherwise we are just another middle-ranking nation. The "special relationship" with the US does not exist. The only country with which the US has such a tie is Israel.

[/quote]Not what Americans think PurpleAccording to Gallup we are still America''s best friend (although I would have said Australia but that was not asked)For

each of the following countries, please say whether you consider it an

ally of the United States, friendly, but not an ally, unfriendly, or an

enemy of the United States.Great BritainAlly 66%Friendly, but not an ally 25%Unfriendly 2%Enemy 1%IsraelAlly 46%Friendly, but not an ally 32%Unfriendly 10%Enemy 6%

I wouldn''t fancy meeting the 1% who think we are an enemy though. Probably duelling Banjo and Squeel like a piggy territory[;)][/quote]

 

Americans may well regard us as their best friend, in the sense that they think - with reason - that we always support American policy, right or wrong. As in two Gulf wars, for example.What I am talking about is the idea that we are thought to have more influence over US policy than any other country. That is what I am saying no longer exists. American presidents may still pay lip-service to the notion that there still is a special relationship with the UK, but they haven''t acted that way in a long time. For example, there is no doubt one of Blair''s reasons for backing Bush in the second Gulf war was that he thought that would buy the UK some say over the US''s Middle East policy (and particularly on Palestine) once the war was won. It never happened.Which leads neatly on to the one country America does single for beneficial foreign-policy treatment, which is Israel, not the UK. And in terms of geo-politics the countries/blocs that matter now to America are the EU as a whole, Japan and what are known as the Bric nations - Brazil, Russia, India and China.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

There are always downsides as well as benefits to belonging to any large organisation. But overall belonging to the EU has brought the UK trading benefits that it would not enjoy if it wasn''t a member. And this will only increase if the mooted mega US-EU trade deal goes ahead. The UK would really be out in the cold if it wasn''t part of that.

[/quote]And if the EU had remained just a trading bloc then most people would be happy to stay in. Unfortunately we have lost control of all manner of other stuff without the electorate giving so much as a "by your leave". IMO this democratic defecit will eventually bring the whole thing crashing down. The financial crisis is not over, it''s just been kicked a little further down the road. Time will tell but I can''t see the Euro elite being able to hold this together for much longer. [/quote]

 

That is a fair point, and highlights what has always been a problem - namely that for the British people the EU was sold  as just that, a trading bloc. That was never how the prime-moving continental Europeans saw it. It was always also a highly political alliance, in part to stop Germany and France ever going to war against each other again.

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I won''t quote as it is getting a little too big but Purple Canary is spot on (again).

 

People who want out of the EU should be careful what they wish for, Britain on it''s own doesn''t have a huge amount going for it - no major natural resources, no major manufactoring sector - just a highly trained service sector work force, english as a first language and a favourable location in international time zones. These are nice benefits, but as is already being seen, companies can relocate fairly easily. The UK isn''t the player it once was, and this idea of ''going it alone'' is very risky; before anyone mentions Norway or Switzerland stop and think if we have a gas/oil or historical position or neutrality that those countries provide respectively.

 

As Purple said the other countries are desperately trying to form new large blocks and partnerships (Japan is strongly considering joining the TPP), I can''t see how the UK can gain from trying to buck this trend and go it alone. America wants to do business with the EU, if we step out of that we could be in deep trouble, especially if the EU also strengthens ties with BRIC which it is currently looking into.

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Four pages of absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with football and this thread has still not been moved to non football. For Gawds sake someone mention 1p5wich . [:''(]

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

I won''t quote as it is getting a little too big but Purple Canary is spot on (again).

 

People who want out of the EU should be careful what they wish for, Britain on it''s own doesn''t have a huge amount going for it - no major natural resources, no major manufactoring sector - just a highly trained service sector work force, english as a first language and a favourable location in international time zones. These are nice benefits, but as is already being seen, companies can relocate fairly easily. The UK isn''t the player it once was, and this idea of ''going it alone'' is very risky; before anyone mentions Norway or Switzerland stop and think if we have a gas/oil or historical position or neutrality that those countries provide respectively.

 

As Purple said the other countries are desperately trying to form new large blocks and partnerships (Japan is strongly considering joining the TPP), I can''t see how the UK can gain from trying to buck this trend and go it alone. America wants to do business with the EU, if we step out of that we could be in deep trouble, especially if the EU also strengthens ties with BRIC which it is currently looking into.

[/quote]I am sure we would all be happy to stay in a free trading bloc. This can only be a good thing. However the EU has become something entirely different from the club that we originally joined. In recent referendums in Ireland and France for example, people voted against extending the centralised power of Brussels but were told to vote again when they gave the "wrong" answer.Our elected Parliament is gradually giving up more and more of it''s authority to the EU by stealth and many people are rightly worried about this. How much of your freedom are you prepared to give up just to be ( questionally) a bit better off financially? Personally speaking theres a line that I won''t cross and that line seems to be getting very close now.I think De Gaulle had it right when he said,"given a choice between Europe and the open sea, the British people will always choose the open sea".

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