Holt to Palace !

[CambridgeCanary 0]

[quote user="Green Giant"]Wouldn''t be sad to see him go. Getting slow, old, ruthless and more dedicated to his family than the club.[/quote]

Obviously, you are an idiot, a troll or most probably both.

Also, if you are more dedicated to your employer than your family, get some therapy because you are one sick person.

[Green Giant 0]

Back in the days of Saunders it was expected, I remember it all. He should put club first if he wants to keep his job. I used to do so myself with my job.

[Bill 1,788]

So farewell Green Giantthough not so jollyas the giant on the tellywho saysHo ho hoas does Santahe only stays one nightas well

[Green Giant 0]

I don''t know what your problem is city1st, but I suggest you stop bothering me. How does your blue and white scarf feel?

[Bill 1,788]

bye byewe shan''t see you any moreuntil you reappear under some other namerather like a flasher with a different mac(and probably as welcome on here as he would be on the local common)

[Green Giant 0]

Your obviously some sort of local village nutter. Perhaps I should call the nurse and alert them of the binner walking around spouting rubbish on an NCFC forum? Come and talk to me when you''ve been supporting the club for over 60 years young lad.

[Bert sneakers 0]

The weirdos and freaks don''t just come out on Halloween obviously because 1 has come out today.

What is it with this forum and mutters posting under different names but still pumping out the same old dribble?

[KeelansGlove 0]

a tragedy when people go senile isn''t it you forgot to take your tablets today ?

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Curious Orange"]To purplecanary:

This is the second thread in which you''ve said Holt is in terminal decline (or may well be). What''s that based on exactly? Scoring 8 goals in the PL in a very defensive side? The amount of points he won us (and not just by scoring goals)? that he was frustrated at not being able to play his normal game yet still contributed to our survival in one of the best leagues in the world? The fact he''s 32?

Look at what he can do when utilised effectively, look at the fact Hughton will soon have ''his'' squad after a season of transition, meaning more attacking options. If it comes to it teams would still be terrified of seeing Holt come off the bench against them.

No one more than Holt has earned the right to be in the squad next season. If we don''t play to his strengths then so be it he may want to leave, but play to his strengths and he will score. I''m srill confused as to why this question comes up.[/quote]

 

It is based on:1) Holt scoring fewer goals this last season than he did in the season before in the same division, while playing often the same kind of role.2) The fact that he is well beyond 30 and getting a year older each season.3) My view - which I would defy anyone to contradict - that he is not the kind of player who will do a Sheringham or a Giggs and grow old gracefully.Sentimentality and  loyalty are fine. In amateur sport. And where dumb animals are concerned. But we are talking about professional sport.

[Lets be aving you! 0]

"he is not the kind of player who will do a Sheringham or a Giggs and grow old gracefully"

 

Indeed, Holty is too reliant on all-in effort to defy the ageing process. If he stays, and I hope he does, I don''t see him starting many games this season but he could be very useful both coming off the bench and for team morale. I also don''t see the transfer fee he would command attracting a worthwhile alternative.

 

Players who are over-reliant on pace (Owen-type) or

über-bustling effort tend to have shorter careers than those with greater guile and football intelligence (like Sheringham). Giggs managed to adapt, but not many do.

[BroadstairsR 2,163]

Quote user="Let''s be ''aving you!"

"Indeed, Holty is too reliant on all-in effort to defy the ageing process. If he stays, and I hope he does,I don''t see him starting many games this season but he could be very useful both coming off the bench and for team morale. I also don''t see the transfer fee he would command attracting a worthwhile alternative."

 

Exactly, and the element of continuity at a time when so many of the clubs in the Premiership have had recent changes either of manager, personnel or status, will give us a bit of a head start, IMO.

 

For the same reason, I would not want to lose Wes. It is not false sentiment to want a bit longer from two of the stalwarts of the Club over recent seasons.  

 

[lake district canary 4,531]

"Let''s be ''aving you!  "Holty is too reliant on all-in effort to defy the ageing process."

Not sure I agree.  He puts in a lot of effort, but does not rely on it  - or pace for that matter -  but has good positioning and desire, so could go on longer than some people think.  Holt  will learn to adapt his game as he gets older.  All players do. It

is about how they adapt that governs how long their careers are.  I hope he learns from last season - and with better players around him he could still be a key player for us. He has to make use of his experience, try not to do too much - something he has been guilty of when coming off the bench. It will be up to him to get the best out of himself - and if he learns to adapt and has the right players around him, I think he still has at least two good years at CR.

[Bill Car 0]

Purple

It is based on:

1) Holt scoring fewer goals this last season than he did in the season before in the same division, while playing often the same kind of role.

That''s not strictly true is it? A lot of this season Holt has been isolated on his own up front.

[BigFish 1,986]

All this sentiment around Holt reminds me of the closing of Iwan''s career. In that case Iwan played on, or rather was played, beyond the point where his abilities justified his place largely on the basis of his past achievements. Holt is now in the same place though I suspect the club is better placed and Hughton a better manager to let this drag on in quite the same way. If we play 4231 again next year it is inconceivable that RVW wouldn''t be first choice with Holt on the bench at best. Even if we play two up top I suspect the plan is the second striker is ano yet to purchased.

Some posters still try to make a case for Holt having an impact, "frightening" the opposition but this isn''t born out by the fact that even at even at £2m there apears to be no serious interest in him. My personal view is that he relies overly on the physical aspects of the game which is reflected in the fact he committed more fouls than any other player in the Prem. What he lacks is pace and movement which was sadly missing from the team going forward last season.

Much is maded of the team not playing to his strengths last year being the reason of his low goal tally. More true is his weaknesses meant that even though he was the focal point of our attach his weaknesses held back our attacking threat. Defenders could comfortably push up knowing he lacked the pace to get in behind.

Thta doesn''t mean he should leave, we don''t have the depth in the squad to be too cavalier. That is to assume that he could be moved on. It apperas he wants to go, Hughton wants him to go but he is overpriced for the market. No one seems keen on the c£5m that would be required (£2m fee + 2 years at £1.5m p.a.)

 

[ABC (A Basingstoke Canary) 26]

[quote user="BigFish"]

All this sentiment around Holt reminds me of the closing of Iwan''s career. In that case Iwan played on, or rather was played, beyond the point where his abilities justified his place largely on the basis of his past achievements. [/quote]

 

Actually, that''s not quite correct - Iwan was NOT played after we won promotion - nor was Malky - hence the guts / heart / soul of the team was ripped apart for that fateful season back in the PL. If he was still in the squad, I willing to bet a pound to a pinch of salt that the "no show" at Fulham would NEVER have happened

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="BigFish"]All this sentiment around Holt[/quote]

It''s not sentiment to want to have a key figure at the club stay. Some might say that without Holt we would not have stayed up last season.  His desire and positivity is what has driven the team to where it is.   Throw that away if you want, but sometimes characters and figures at a football club are more important than just what they do on the pitch, although that is obviously the most important part.  Holt is club captain.  Hughton hasn''t changed that and has stuck with Holt the whole season - that says more than a thousand critics could. 

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="ABC A Basingstoke Canary"]If he was still in the squad, I willing to bet a pound to a pinch of salt that the "no show" at Fulham would NEVER have happened[/quote]Oh come on...Are you seriously trying to suggest that having spent what would have likely been 90% of the season on the bench at best, that he would then have then somehow magically inspired the team to victory in the final game of the season - when all the other reasons they had to perform were ignored despite us having the advantage over those around us going into the game???This goes beyond wishful thinking to severe levels of delusion IMHO.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Bill Car"]Purple

It is based on:

1) Holt scoring fewer goals this last season than he did in the season before in the same division, while playing often the same kind of role.

That''s not strictly true is it? A lot of this season Holt has been isolated on his own up front.[/quote]

It is true. He was used as a lone striker by Lambert as well.

[BigFish 1,986]

[quote user="ABC"][quote user="BigFish"]

All this sentiment around Holt reminds me of the closing of Iwan''s career. In that case Iwan played on, or rather was played, beyond the point where his abilities justified his place largely on the basis of his past achievements. [/quote]

 

Actually, that''s not quite correct - Iwan was NOT played after we won promotion - nor was Malky - hence the guts / heart / soul of the team was ripped apart for that fateful season back in the PL. If he was still in the squad, I willing to bet a pound to a pinch of salt that the "no show" at Fulham would NEVER have happened

[/quote]

Yeah right.......in 2002-2003 Iwan scored what was it? Yes, 7 goals in 47 games, not exactly pulling up any trees and sentimently picking him cost us a place in the play-offs. By the time we got to the Prem it was obvious even to Worthy that his day had gone but the delay in getting in a replacement we should have signed a year earlier probably got us relegated.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Bill Car"]Purple

It is based on:

1) Holt scoring fewer goals this last season than he did in the season before in the same division, while playing often the same kind of role.

That''s not strictly true is it? A lot of this season Holt has been isolated on his own up front.[/quote]

It is true. He was used as a lone striker by Lambert as well.[/quote]

....and yet you''re proving the whole point. He was certainly not Lamberts first choice lone striker but forced his way back into the team, that Lambert then had to adapt to keep him in. Used as a lone striker yes, anywhere near as effective as when paired with someone else, no.

Holt has not by any means had a bad season, which is what is being inferred here. Undoubtedly not as impressive as the season before but look at how he''s been asked to play. Lambert did not play 4-5-1 for the whole season!

If we never play anything but one up top again then yes Holt may well leave but why is everyone so adamant that is all that will happen?

Bringing age into it is stupid as so many players past and present prove. Holts game is not about pace but strength and positioning - something curtailed by his new role.

If Holt had been deployed as per the season before, he would have scored similarly to the previous season (and as per the last couple of games this) and his age and ''terminal decline'' would have never been so ludicrously suggested. The fact he was our top scorer and played a massive role in staying up anyway is simply an insult to his efforts.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Curious Orange"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Bill Car"]Purple

It is based on:

1) Holt scoring fewer goals this last season than he did in the season before in the same division, while playing often the same kind of role.

That''s not strictly true is it? A lot of this season Holt has been isolated on his own up front.[/quote]

It is true. He was used as a lone striker by Lambert as well.[/quote]

....and yet you''re proving the whole point. He was certainly not Lamberts first choice lone striker but forced his way back into the team, that Lambert then had to adapt to keep him in. Used as a lone striker yes, anywhere near as effective as when paired with someone else, no.

Holt has not by any means had a bad season, which is what is being inferred here. Undoubtedly not as impressive as the season before but look at how he''s been asked to play. Lambert did not play 4-5-1 for the whole season!

If we never play anything but one up top again then yes Holt may well leave but why is everyone so adamant that is all that will happen?

Bringing age into it is stupid as so many players past and present prove. Holts game is not about pace but strength and positioning - something curtailed by his new role.

If Holt had been deployed as per the season before, he would have scored similarly to the previous season (and as per the last couple of games this) and his age and ''terminal decline'' would have never been so ludicrously suggested. The fact he was our top scorer and played a massive role in staying up anyway is simply an insult to his efforts.[/quote]

 

Curious Orange, I think Holt is in terminal decline. You don''t. I hope that you''re right and I''m wrong. We shall see.

[ABC (A Basingstoke Canary) 26]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="ABC A Basingstoke Canary"]If he was still in the squad, I willing to bet a pound to a pinch of salt that the "no show" at Fulham would NEVER have happened[/quote]
Oh come on...

Are you seriously trying to suggest that having spent what would have likely been 90% of the season on the bench at best, that he would then have then somehow magically inspired the team to victory in the final game of the season - when all the other reasons they had to perform were ignored despite us having the advantage over those around us going into the game???

This goes beyond wishful thinking to severe levels of delusion IMHO.
[/quote]

 

Nothing to do with wishful thinking - to do with human nature

 

Iwan was inspirational both on and off the field. If he was in the squad, then it probably wouldn''t have been down to the last game, and if it was, you could bet your house on him motivating the likes of Francis to atually put in a performance!

 

If you think that that is delusional, then I feel very sorry for you. Working with a truly inspirational character is an uplifting experience - and that applies across the board, no matter what line of business you may be in.

[Indy_Bones 441]

So being a professional footballer who''s paid damn good money, whilst playing the top league in the world and needing to get a draw or win to ensure you stay in that league and earn even more money and prestige wasn''t enough, but a motivational speech from an over the hill striker would have made all the difference...oh dear....

[ABC (A Basingstoke Canary) 26]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]So being a professional footballer who''s paid damn good money, whilst playing the top league in the world and needing to get a draw or win to ensure you stay in that league and earn even more money and prestige wasn''t enough, but a motivational speech from an over the hill striker would have made all the difference...oh dear....
[/quote]

 

Are you going out of your way to be antagonistic????

 

IF you saw that game, then you would have seen that certain players did not "turn up"! IF Iwan was in the squad or on the field of play, he would not have given a "motivational speech" as you euphemistically put it. As for him being an "over the hill" striker, he may not have been at his glorious best, but he certainly provided the inspiration the team needed.

 

But, as you are so quick to dismiss people as being "over the hill" - at what stage would you consider other people to be "over the hill" - think about your personal circle and think very carefully about your answer!

 

I have noticed in a number of your posts that you appear to have a very dismissive attitude towards other people - whether the manager, the captain, certain players, or even other forum members. It must be very lonely for you being stuck in that negative world - though should give you a good insight as to how supporters of that club down the road feel!

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="ABC A Basingstoke Canary"]Are you going out of your way to be antagonistic???[/quote]Absolutely not, but I simply think that you''re massively overstating the impact that Iwan would have had in the dressing room, especially when in that last game there were far more obvious incentives to go out there and play well that were completely ignored.I DID see the game, and it was one of the worst non-performances I''ve ever seen from us as a club (at least until the Stoke match this season anyway), and I really don''t see how having Iwan there would have changed anything in any major way. [quote]But, as you are so quick to dismiss people as being "over the hill" - at what stage would you consider other people to be "over the hill" - think about your personal circle and think very carefully about your answer![/quote]We''re talking about a very distinct situation here, and football is a ruthless business. You didn''t see Arsenal hanging onto Henry when he started to tail off just to keep his ''motivational skills'' in the dressing room, and you could go round EVERY major club in the game and find similar situations where formerly great players were released when they were past their best because the key factor is their ability to perform on the pitch - not in the dressing room.I''m not saying that this isn''t a GREAT ability for a player to bring with them, and given two identically talented players you''d take the one with the better attitude, team spirit and morale boosting ability, but if that player was instead well past his best, then you wouldn''t take him over the guy who would make a difference on the pitch...[quote]I have noticed in a number of your posts that you appear to have a very dismissive attitude towards other people - whether the manager, the captain, certain players, or even other forum members. It must be very lonely for you being stuck in that negative world - though should give you a good insight as to how supporters of that club down the road feel![/quote]I don''t see it as negative most of the time, I see it as realistic. I also have the view that you should "call it how you see it", and therefore I don''t pull any punches when I think something needs to be stated. But I do also have the humility to admit when I may have been wrong, such as more recently where I openly admitted I may have been overly harsh towards the manager and apologised for this - no excuses or trying to backtrack, I simply admitted that I may well have been wrong - end of.As I see it, this is a discussion forum that allows me to air my views about our players, management team, directors and basically anything relatively related to NCFC, so if I think a player may no longer be at the level we need to improve, then I''ll say so. If I think we''ve missed out on a potentially good transfer then I''ll say so and if I think the manager is making bad errors then I''ll say so.There''s too many people on here that post a lot of drivel, but when they get called on it they simply resort to abuse or childish behaviour, rather than coming back with a constructive reply to backup their opinion, and if I think that is the case then I may well be dismissive towards that poster, and that''s not likely to change...In this instance I simply feel that Holt is no longer as vital to our success as he has been in previous seasons, and that if there''s a decent offer on the table that works for all parties then we should consider it, rather than simply dismiss it out of hand based on his performances in the past for us...

[morty 0]

[quote user="ABC A Basingstoke Canary"]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]So being a professional footballer who''s paid damn good money, whilst playing the top league in the world and needing to get a draw or win to ensure you stay in that league and earn even more money and prestige wasn''t enough, but a motivational speech from an over the hill striker would have made all the difference...oh dear....[/quote]

 

Are you going out of your way to be antagonistic????

 

IF you saw that game, then you would have seen that certain players did not "turn up"! IF Iwan was in the squad or on the field of play, he would not have given a "motivational speech" as you euphemistically put it. As for him being an "over the hill" striker, he may not have been at his glorious best, but he certainly provided the inspiration the team needed.

 

But, as you are so quick to dismiss people as being "over the hill" - at what stage would you consider other people to be "over the hill" - think about your personal circle and think very carefully about your answer!

 

I have noticed in a number of your posts that you appear to have a very dismissive attitude towards other people - whether the manager, the captain, certain players, or even other forum members. It must be very lonely for you being stuck in that negative world - though should give you a good insight as to how supporters of that club down the road feel!

[/quote][Y]

[Highland Canary 76]

@ Purple - I think you''re wrong on the Holt issue. He is a proven PL goal scorer and whilst I agree that Lambert also used Holt as a lone striker, arguably, there was a somewhat more attacking intent from that team. When we reversed our defensive tactics post- Arsenal Holt was, once again, among the goals. To sell him to one of our relegation rivals seems simply ludicrous to me.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Highland Canary"]@ Purple - I think you''re wrong on the Holt issue. He is a proven PL goal scorer and whilst I agree that Lambert also used Holt as a lone striker, arguably, there was a somewhat more attacking intent from that team. When we reversed our defensive tactics post- Arsenal Holt was, once again, among the goals. To sell him to one of our relegation rivals seems simply ludicrous to me.[/quote]

 

Highland, you may be right in saying I''m wrong about Holt. It comes down to a matter of opinion. But to be clear when I say he is in termnal decline I don''t mean his NCFC squad career is necessarily over. I mean that this last season was not some kind of explicable blip. He is not going  to recapture the form he showed in 2011-12. At best Holt might be able to slow the decline next season.I didn''t actually say we should sell him to Palace. I just said £2m was  a fair price. And I haven''t advocated selling him no matter what the circumstances, but only if we got in some younger modek as a replacement.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"] when I say he is in termnal decline I don''t mean his NCFC squad career is necessarily over. I mean that this last season was not some kind of explicable blip. He is not going  to recapture the form he showed in 2011-12. At best Holt might be able to slow the decline next season.[/quote]

All players are different though and while it is true Holt won''t get any quicker, more skilful or get more stamina - what he does have is experience and that for me is the question. -  can he use his experience to good effect.    After age 30  sport starts to become more of a mind game and most sports are 80% in the mind anyway. Bobby Moore, Teddy Sheringham, Ryan Giggs and others have proved that.     Holt shouldn''t have to charge about anymore - he should concentrate on what he is good at and in the areas he is effective.  To do that he needs the right players around him - delivering the ball to him when he is in good positions.   There were lots of occasions when he got in to really good positions last year but a fairly simple ball was over hit or delayed by midfielders.  Imo Holt will always score goals, but only if the rest of the team are up to it. 

"Terminal decline" is a harsh way of putting things too - I''m not saying Holt hasn''t got work to do to prove he is worth a place in the team, but I am saying that if he learns how to get the best from himself as he gets older - and has the right players around him delivering more accurate crosses - he could score 15 - 20 goals again next season - and quite easily, too. 

[Yorkshire Canary 118]

Lets have a bit of objectivity in relation to Grant Holt. His goals have made a major contribution in taking this club from league 1 to the EPL and keeping them there for 2 seasons to date. He has been our captain and a very positive influence upon the club for much of his time here. Last summer there was something of a change when he dug his heels in for a more lucrative longer term contract, possibly taking advantage of the managerial turmoil at the time. Most suppers including me actually though at his age and what he had done for the club he deserved it albeit negotiations on both sides could have been progressed more diplomatically. Last season he was somewhat less effective but still got us crucial goals. His poorer return can be put down to a combination of factors not least the change in tactics which gave him fewer chances but also it has to be said he slowed down a bit and also added a bit of weight. I was pleased to see him score a few at the end of the season by which time he looked happier and more committed than he has done a couple of months earlier when he clearly was not in a good place and was in danger of being sent off several times. as to his future in large part it depends what he wants, as to a £2m or so fee it is really small change in current dealings and should not influence thinking. With the arrival of RVW and possibly others he will not be a first choice unless there are injuries etc. He needs to accept that and his new role as impact from the bench and cover. Regardless of if he stays or goes I would not sell him to a possible relegation rival, celtic, championship or abroad if he leaves and I hope he does not