Holt to Palace !

[Dr. Ink 0]

Holt is nearly at 50,000 Twitter followers. He said when he gets to the number he will do a Q&A session online. These are normally very interesting, getting some honest answers from the players themselves. It''s surprising though, how they are often pawns when it comes to transfers, having very little say in proceedings themselves. Anyone who has read Huck''s book will realise this.

[Nicko 0]

He tends not to answer any about his future though. Unsurprisingly. Only answers the silly ones!

[Josh 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Six Pack"]put your money where your mouth is - 25-30 premiership goals.[/quote]And if that''s your genuine expectation of RVW, then I''d suggest that your mouth is firmly located in your posterior...Only a handful of players are good enough to hit that many goals a season, and 99% of that handful will do it for a top 6 club with world class players giving them the ammunition.These season alone, only Van Persie managed that amount, with just Bale and Suarez even scoring above 20, and all three of them are at top clubs. Last season it was only Van Persie and Rooney to hit that amount, with Aguero being the sole played besides them above 20 - and again, they''re all at top clubs.Not to mention that all of these players are worth in excess of 25-30 million (or close to 85-100 if you buy into the Bale hype), and not closer to 8 million...Your suggestion is beyond ridiculous, and whilst I think it''s perfectly plausible that RVW could hit 15 or more, a base yardstick of 12 isn''t unfair or too low, for a player coming into a totally new league (and of a higher standard) and in a team that has some good players, but is more focused on team based results than individually outstanding players.So wind your neck in pal, and either be more reasonable, or simply don''t bother to respond if that''s the sort of tosh you''re going to come out with...[/quote]

Well said. Some Norwich fans scare me. I fear if RVW doesn''t crack 20 goals+ next season certain fans will be on his back labelling him an expensive flop!! The Premier League isn''t easy, so lets be realistic here. 12-15 goals and the boy has done well.

[Six Pack 91]

Indy Bones went gobble gobble gobble:

The thread is about Holt. I''m simply pointing out that

posters are unfairly using his lack of goals as an excuse to shaft him - Holt is playing in a different system from the previous seasons.

You yourself have stated that it is a team game & players need to adapt to new systems. So a low goal return is not unreasonable and also that even the top players/ goal scorers can struggle with different systems that they are unfamiliar with ie Michael Owen at Stoke.

My example of 20-30 goals is of an extreme used to highlight the point of the unrealistic expectation not only of Holt but RVW as well.

[Indy_Bones 441]

But the point is that Holt really HASN''T adjusted to the new system, has admitted he doesn''t like it and he''s got frustrated, and there''s no indications that Hughton is going to change this either, so what actually suggests that Holt is likely to improve on last season''s form to such a level that makes him un-sellable at the moment in time???Your use of 20-30 goals was misguided at best, and deluded at worst, and has no relevance in this discussion. Indeed, much of the ''complaints'' about Holt last season weren''t down to his lack of goals per se, but more about how he played in those games and the frustration that he was allowing to interfere with his performances. I have absolutely no doubt that if we reverted back to a system that suited Holt and re-installed him as clear first choice striker, he could be getting back close to his best and double figures wouldn''t be an unreasonable suggestion - but we just aren''t. Chances are that he''ll be used as little more than as cover for RVW or brought on as a later sub if we want a more physical presence, and that isn''t enough justification to keep him on the books if there''s a genuinely decent offer made for him. If there''s no offer and it''s all just paper talk then it''s a totally moot point, but he clearly wasn''t happy last season, and I see no reason for him to be any happier this year either...

[lake district canary 4,531]

I have sympathies with both sides of the Holt argument.  However, what cannot be disputed is that he is the club captain and selling your club captain is not something you do lightly.  He is an inspiration, a positive influence on and off the field, always gives his best - yes he has off days, but so do all players.   I saw some fantastic efforts from him last season for the team, ok, not as well supported up front as we would perhaps like, but as has been said a thousand times - his relative lack of goals was more down to poor or lack of delivery into the areas he attacks.   People like to knock him and yes, he is not immune to criticism, but he is club captain for a reason.   That some fans are so easy about selling our club captain I find a little odd.  But then he has  never been good enough for some fans ever since league 1.  He just doesn''t fit their image of what a striker should be.  He is a rugged, down to earth  northerner from humble background and works hard.    To many, me included, he is an inspiration, but to some he hasn''t beaten the "overweight ex-tyrefitter" tag.   They continue to support their cause with "we can do better".  Well, we can do better - but with Holt on board rather than without him. 

[Warren Hill 0]

 

People keep banging on about how Holt played, his frustrations, how he was trying to collect teeth and bones etc etc etc

 

How many times did he get sent off in the end?

 

The anti-Holt agenda has been trundled out every season he''s been at the club, he won''t cut it in the Championship/Premier/Premier again, he misses his family/wants to move back up North/has an attitude problem - for some reason some people always want to knock him. If you don''t like him, just come out and say it, that''s fair enough but inventing stuff to discredit him "he was a red card waiting to happen" or intimating that you know what he is thinking and his emotional state to use against him is frankly ridiculous.

 

 

[Joey Deacan 0]

http://www.eplindex.com/14273/best-premier-league-striker-opta-stats-analysis.html

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Joey Deacan"]http://www.eplindex.com/14273/best-premier-league-striker-opta-stats-analysis.html[/quote]What relevance does an article from the season before last have in this discussion???Or are you simply going to bang the drum about Holt scoring well in his first season in the prem but conveniently forgetting about his second season...?

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]he clearly wasn''t happy last season....[/quote]But how clearly could you see that on your dodgy stream? [;)]

[Tak 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]I have sympathies with both sides of the Holt argument.  However, what cannot be disputed is that he is the club captain and selling your club captain is not something you do lightly.  He is an inspiration, a positive influence on and off the field, always gives his best - yes he has off days, but so do all players.   I saw some fantastic efforts from him last season for the team, ok, not as well supported up front as we would perhaps like, but as has been said a thousand times - his relative lack of goals was more down to poor or lack of delivery into the areas he attacks.  

People like to knock him and yes, he is not immune to criticism, but he is club captain for a reason.   That some fans are so easy about selling our club captain I find a little odd.  But then he has  never been good enough for some fans ever since league 1.  He just doesn''t fit their image of what a striker should be.  He is a rugged, down to earth  northerner from humble background and works hard.    To many, me included, he is an inspiration, but to some he hasn''t beaten the "overweight ex-tyrefitter" tag.   They continue to support their cause with "we can do better".  Well, we can do better - but with Holt on board rather than without him. 



[/quote]

 

You have to also wonder that if he becomes unhappy at sitting on the bench most of the time next season if his influence will be so positive. He made a few unhappy noises when Morison took his place in the first season and we all known how that ended. He also made it clear he wasn''t happy this season and added more pressure onto Hughton at a difficult time in the season, surely a responsible club captain wouldn''t make comments on Twitter about how he wants to play in a front two, or say how the manager has made him a worse player by changing his role in the team.

 

I, and I''m sure many others, don''t really care about the mostly arbitary title of ''club captain'' and judge the player on what he can offer the team in the future, not what he gave the team in the past. In reality in the season just gone Holt was a 31/32 year old player who was finding it difficult to cope at times, I don''t see why he will suddenly fair any better at 32/33. Also, when I say ''difficult to cope'' I don''t just mean the number of goals he scored, at times last season Holt was guilty of constantly surrendering possession or make the wrong choices. As a lone striker you have to perform at least one of two jobs, scoring goals or bringing other players into the game in threatening positions, Holt did neither of these things in more than a few games. That''s not to say he wasn''t also Norwich''s best player on the pitch at times.

 

Hughton has to ask himself ''can Grant bring something to the team next season? If so, does that outweigh the potentially harmful effect he can bring by being on the bench and having a rather large mouth?''

[Six Pack 91]

Indy Bones wrote

Indeed, much of the ''complaints'' about Holt last season weren''t down to his lack of goals per se, but more about how he played in those games and the frustration that he was allowing to interfere with his performances.

Indy Bones reply to Joey Deacan

What relevance does an article from the season before last have in this discussion???

Or are you simply going to bang the drum about Holt scoring well in his first season in the prem but conveniently forgetting about his second season...?

-----------------------------------------------------------

Goals not relevant to discussion ?

You''re starting to bend with wind !

[KeelansGlove 0]

I am truly baffled that so many so called fans have learned so little from history of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Without Grant Holt Norwich city would not be in the premier league he is probably the number one reason for not only our promotions but also not being relegated in the last 2 seasons.

The system generally didn''t work particularly well for Norwich last season not because of Holt but because of the Strikers isolation from the rest of the team. I would tend to blame midfield rather than Holt anyway this is irrelevant to the point that needs making.

Why would a football club that has a player like Holt on the books for another 2 years who has brought us to the premier league and revenues

of 60M+ per year ever consider letting him go before a replacement has been found and shown he can do the job. We have all seen huge amounts of money being spent on players that never quite click with a team, Holt has proven he can do it year after year and I for one will be more than happy if we see him stay to the end of his contract gradually playing less games each year as players replace him in the first team.

We could sign Hooper, Austin and Rhodes with no Guarantee of 8 premier league goals ! 15m for Andy Carroll I''m glad I don''t have some of you guys looking after my bank balance. Evolution not revolution, always

 

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Six Pack"]Goals not relevant to discussion ?

You''re starting to bend with wind ![/quote]Huh?Why are goals from the season before last more relevant than the most recent season?On that basis Henry would still be regarded as a world beater rather than a formerly great player who''s now well past his best...Also, if you think 8 goals along with a number of very poor performances, complaints at the system/not playing, and regularly flared tempers and bad tackles is what we need to improve on where we are now, then I really do begin to wonder at the mentality of some of our fans...

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Without Grant Holt Norwich city would not be in the premier league he is probably the number one reason for not only our promotions but also not being relegated in the last 2 seasons.[/quote]With the very greatest of respect - So what?Lansbury and Pacheco helped us come back up but we''re not bemoaning their departure, Jackson just left and many fans were disappointed to see him leave and thanked him for his role in getting us up and keeping us there (I wasn''t, but that''s another matter), Tierney helped get us here as well, along with players like Ward, Barnett, Fox and even Chris Martin, but in order to evolve we''ve brought in better players to replace them rather than simply sticking with them because of what they did for us last year, or even 2-3 years ago...This should not be about whether or not Holt HAS been a great player and helped get us where we are (and stay there), it should be about whether or not he can CONTINUE to be a great player and perform at the same level or better in the face of increasing competition and in a role that he clearly DOES NOT LIKE.What''s next? Demanding Hucks comes back for the new season because of how good he was in the past for us????????

[KeelansGlove 0]

I bet you thought it was a really good idea to get Iwan Roberts and Malky Mackay of the wage list when we were promoted last time Indy ?

I''m just really glad you are not in a position to shape our squad. 

[KeelansGlove 0]

Andy Carroll cost 15m and is still not worthy of lacing Grant Holts boots

Holt probably had his worst season for NCFC last year but it didn''t look to me like he was losing it or becoming less effective. The whole squad found it difficult to adapt to the preferred system and Holt still scored more goals than Andy Carroll.

I think anybody that thinks we should go into a new season having sold/released our top goalscorer from the previous 4 seasons when we do not have to is clearly not keen on NCFC remaining in the premier league.

[ABC (A Basingstoke Canary) 26]

KeelansGlove (and others of a sensible approach), you are trying to have a rational or logical discussion on the merits of retaining the services of the Iwans, Malkys, Hucks and Holts of this world in terms of the value they bring to the team. Unfortunately, others cannot / will not see that and have already made their mind up that, in this instance, Holt is "past it" and no longer relevant to Norwich City.

 

We have a team of many captains, but the value that Holt - the captain''s captain, brings to the squad should never be underestimated - and I don''t think there is another character in the dressing room who has the respect of the other captains.

 

I certainly don''t think that we will be in the bottom half this season, however, take away the Holt influence, start having internal dressing room bickering as to who actually is the real captain, then I fear that we might struggle and not get a top ten finish.

 

For all those who think the squad would be better off without GH - have you REALLY considered the downside to this? He has been so influential to the team - and yes, before somebody pipes up, I am talking about the past - BUT the past is what experience is based on! How much do you think that experience would cost to buy in?

 

In conclusion, whilst the team is evolving, now is definitely not the time to be messing with the spirit of the dressing room by talking of getting rid of the "captain''s captain"!

[CambridgeCanary 0]

I don''t think you are talking about the past actually.  Anyone who watched Holt as opposed to just following the ball, during the last few games would have seen that he was constantly organising the team, suggesting changes and talking to everyone. 

 

Holt is still right in the mix and still having a huge affect on the team.  He is a hugely intelligent footballer.  He sees things across the pitch and has a good eye for where things will happen.  If his skills matched his vision he would be amazing.  Some of his passes are audacious in their intent although his technique can let him down.

 

Before someone scoffs and uses his tweets to challenge his intelligence, I would say this.  Firstly even intelligent people sound stupid on Twitter.  It''s the way the medium works.  Secondly, don''t confuse intelligence with education.  Thirdly, an intelligent footballer is not the same as an intelligent person.  As in any craft, it is a sense about how to do your job that others lack not an ability to compete on Eggheads. 

 

We all admired incidents like Lansbury''s sublime pass against Ipswich but Holt had the vision to anticipate it and get there.  It is no accident that he heads away many opposition corners.  He gets into the right place because he has anticipated where the ball will go.

 

Too many like my Dad see Holt as this great physical bruiser.   It suits him to be underestimated and of course, he can do physical; sometimes too much so.   If he really was that limited a player then he would not have scored nearly so many goals nor embarrassed so many defenders.

 

The point of improving is to bring in better players, demote your current better players and move on your worse players.  We have moved Martin and Jackson on.  Better strikers will come in but we need that second tier for the bench and the squad.   You do not sell your good squad players until you''ve got better players. 

 

The difference Holt makes and will make next season is immense and City would either be mad or very blessed with other players if he was allowed to go.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="ABC A Basingstoke Canary"]KeelansGlove (and others of a sensible approach), you are trying to have a rational or logical discussion on the merits of retaining the services of the Iwans, Malkys, Hucks and Holts of this world in terms of the value they bring to the team. Unfortunately, others cannot / will not see that and have already made their mind up that, in this instance, Holt is "past it" and no longer relevant to Norwich City.[/quote]The key difference however is that players like Malky, Iwan and Hucks were not hacked off about the amount of playing time they were getting or the system they were being asked to play in, nor were they running round taking lumps out of people and showing their frustrations on the pitch/twitter/interviews etc, and what''s more, they were at the end of their contracts to boot, rather than sat in the middle of a nice juicy deal...The situations aren''t even comparable, so it''s yet another apples vs oranges comparison you''re trying to pawn onto us...If Holt is happy to spend more time as a benchwarmer, has adapted to the football under Hughton, is no longer frustrated with the system/role and will 100% each game, and he harbours no desire to leave - even if good offers are on the table, then I''d be more than happy for him to stay, but I have grave doubts about the majority of that actually being the case, hence my willingness to allow him to leave if there''s a genuinely decent offer available.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]If Holt is happy to spend more time as a benchwarmer, has adapted to the football under Hughton, is no longer frustrated with the system/role and will 100% each game, and he harbours no desire to leave - even if good offers are on the table, then I''d be more than happy for him to stay, but I have grave doubts about the majority of that actually being the case, hence my willingness to allow him to leave if there''s a genuinely decent offer available.[/quote]Who says he will be a bench warmer?    All players have to fight for their place in the team.Who says he hasn''t adapted?                 He has adapted his game, no question. Who says he is frustrated?                    He may have some frustration in him but is grown up enough to deal it - and has.Who says he hasn''t been giving 100%?   I watched him in some games being all over the pitch, defending, attacking,                                                              tracking back. Never gives less than 100% - he wouldn''t know how to.Who says he has a desire to leave?       Nobody, etc mischevious journalists.

[lake district canary 4,531]

That didn''t go too well - I''ll try again.Who says he will be a bench warmer?    All players have to fight for their place in the team.Who says he hasn''t adapted?                 He has adapted his game, no question. Who says he is frustrated?                    He may have some frustration in him but is grown up enough to deal it - and has.Who says he hasn''t been giving 100%?   Never gives less than 100% - he wouldn''t know how to.Who says he has a desire to leave?       Nobody except mischevious journalists.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Who says he will be a bench warmer?[/quote]8.5 million pounds worth of RVW does, especially as there''s no indication that Hughton is looking to change from his lone striker approach.[quote]Who says he hasn''t adapted?[/quote]Half as many goals is good indicator to begin with.[quote]Who says he is frustrated?[/quote]Err...that would be Grant Holt himself.[quote]Who says he hasn''t been giving 100%[/quote]Debateable one, but in a number of games it seemed 100% certain that he was trying to get sent off, and players who are frustrated and don''t like the role they''re being asked to play rarely give 100%, which is why his performances in the final two games garnered much better responses than many of the matches before them, because he genuinely seemed to be giving his all rather than plodding around or looking for trouble.[quote]Who says he has a desire to leave?[/quote]Him and his agent did when they handed in a transfer request last season, plus he makes no secret of the desire to return closer to home at some point, that his family live at the other end of the country (even if he says it''s doesn''t affect him) and that he also clearly wants regular first team football which we may not be able to guarantee him anymore.He may well not be pushing for a move, but I thought the discussion was about potentially letting him go if an offer was on the table, rather than him engineering a move away or us forcing him out?

[Lavanche 0]

Don''t know what Indy Bones has against Holt, but truth is that before we are sure someone can fill his boots there is no reason to sell our captain.

As said so many times before. Holt has attributes that are important for the team and wont get old with his age. Strenght, work rate and spirit.

RvW will probably be our main striker and he clearly is more skilful with the ball and probably more clinical too, but we cant be sure yet if he is up to it in his first season,

Same goes for anyone we sign and Becchio is still quite unproven too. Only one who is proven and always does the job way or other is Holt.

If he is still happy to play his role, we should keep him and I''m quite sure he is happy.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Indy, it feels as if you are jumping to conclusions without knowing all the facts, or at least drawing conclusions that are open to question.RVW is a challenge to Holt, no question, but one that he should be ready for.  Half as many goals?  The team scored less goals as a whole. His service in a lot of games was poor, so not all blame lies with Holt for that. Frustration? There''s frustration and frustration.  A little frustration is something that any professional player has to deal with - I think Holt dealt with it.    100%?  I stand by that.  He may be guilty of trying too hard, but never less than 100%.   Desire to leave.  No - another agent cocking things up, that''s all.

[smooth 114]

I think this has really got people going mores Han I thought, maybe it is because we do not have much other news going on.

Rvw comes in and will score goals. I don''t expect him to get 20 odd goals as that is usually left for the top two-3 strikers in the league. Rvw will bring assists due to his ability and score goals, 12+ would be a good return, considering so many on here think he will struggle. I for one don''t think he will struggle and cannot wait to see him leading our line.

Holty does have a role to play, if he gives what his new contract wants. I still think we will bring in new strikers and he will move down the pecking order. I would hope that all fans want to see players come in and holty to leave when those new quality players come in and have had a settled season with them leading the line.

One day he will have to leave, he will not be leading our line for years.

I think we can forget about the history with the former players. That is all debated back then and we will never know what happened if those players had stayed. One example is Fleming who stayed one more season and during that season was turned with ease and looked out of sorts. So I think we can leave the past were it was and look at this exciting summer where we add great players to a robust group.

I think we are getting a bit lost if we think at Ncfc would crumble without holty... We would not... Things would change and we have strong characters in the group. But if holty stays he can be part of the team. I always want to see our team improve and that means every individual improve at the club or new players come in to improve. I hope he warrants his wages for next season if he stays and then if we stay up we then have to make a decision or maybe he will. I do feel that if he is here in 12 months the same topic will come up again.

[KeelansGlove 0]

I think we agree that it would be foolish to let Holty go at this point unless he is truly unhappy and that this would effect his game. He wanted his 3 years and he got it. He has clearly stated he is not looking for a move an that it is up to the manager if he is here next season.

I am not looking at the situation through yellow tinted glasses all things have to come to an end and there will come a time when Holty can

no longer do a job for Ncfc. I hope he plays less time next season (as this is likely to mean RVW has stepped up) and hope he can continue to be a big part of the club for the next 2 years thereafter finishing his career at Carlisle.  

[ABC (A Basingstoke Canary) 26]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]If Holt is happy to spend more time as a benchwarmer, has adapted to the football under Hughton, is no longer frustrated with the system/role and will 100% each game, and he harbours no desire to leave - even if good offers are on the table, then I''d be more than happy for him to stay, but I have grave doubts about the majority of that actually being the case, hence my willingness to allow him to leave if there''s a genuinely decent offer available.
[/quote]

 

Your willingness to allow him to leave?? Are you perchance David McNally or Chris Hughton incognito? I must say that really is big of you to be willing to let him leave under the right circumstances! I wonder if GH or his agent are aware of your willingness? Do they need to be in touch? Sarcasm over! [:D]

[Green Giant 0]

Wouldn''t be sad to see him go. Getting slow, old, ruthless and more dedicated to his family than the club.

[Houston Canary 0]

Holt and the entire team came off 3 seasons of relentless attacking football and switched to a system focussed on defense so if his goal production dropped , it was more than complete countered by the huge increase in clean sheets.

His impact on games was usually very positive either as a sub or a starter. If he plays more as a sub next season I see no reason for him to not continue having that huge impact in the final 20. However, why can''t both he and RVW start? There were some games last season he played basically as an attacking midfielde. His centering passes were often sublime but ended up unrewarded and left me thinking that if a pass like that came his way, he would be all over it sending it to the back of the net.

Alas he is only huma. Until he proves he is not a major asset, he needs to be in the line-up, preferably starting with or behind the new striker(s).

As for Houghton giving no indication of changing game plans, maybe the last 2 games gave him food for thought. Or perhaps he is making the change but not announcing it so it takes that much longer for teams to figure us out.