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J I Muffington

Tactical Nous

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Would I prefer to spend £500 on travelling to Wigan and Stoke to watch two away games? Or would I be better off saving that money, staying at home, and getting the same level of entertainment watching my grass grow for two days?

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Under Lambert we often conceded the first goal and had to play catch up. Our home record of only 4 defeats is a positive point though the means to achieve this is the often main topic of debate on here. Hughton had a really difficult task to not only try and retain Premier football but win over fans from the Lambert love in. His record at Newcastle and Birmingham suggests that the way we are playing is a necessity rather than a change in his ideology. He did after all play for Spurs whose passing and play are legendary as some of our ex spud players demonstrated.

My disappointment this season has been the away form especially against the teams in the lower half of the table. Our lack of true pace and negative tactics in these games has hurt us. If we are relegated there lies the cause.

Give Hughton a chance, he knows whats wrong, i''m sure he is aware of what needs doing and the signing of Rip Van Winkle is the clearest indication of the changes ahead in tactics and players

H

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well I don''t believe we play for a draw Morph. I think that''s a myth. We try to win every game but just in a different way. We put a lot more emphasis on stopping the opposition. There''s a lot more discipline when we don''t have the ball. Whoever you are you won''t have the ball for about half the game. So despite being ignored on here it is important. The way we play is pretty much the way we have all season. And I would imagine the way we will for the rest of the season. I saw posters on here suggesting we played differently against Reading. I didn''t see any real difference it''s just that we scored two goals. I also can''t believe posters who say Swansea play the same was as they did last season. They are far more direct this year.  All these opinions seem to be based on results rather than what happens on the pitch.

 

But one thing I am aware of is that it''s entirely possible that to carry on how we were last season we could just as easily be relegated as mid-table. That''s why it''s irrelevant. As is Paul Lambert. 

 

I hope we don''t play gung ho football on Sunday. And I doubt we will. If we don''t win it will be said we played for a draw and if we win it will be said to be because Hughton changed his tactics. Because at the end of the day nobody ever complains about three points. Football is a results business because nobody complains about style of play when you win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

It is clear that a massive amount of our preparation is based on preventing the opposition from scoring and keeeping to a very strict defensive formation. This is acceptable up to a point but there is a lack of understanding of what we should do when we take possession of the ball. It is obvious that the two central midfield players are under instruction not to get ahead of the ball. As a result, when one of our two wide players eventually gets a cross into the box, there is only one player trying to get on the end of it. Goals are scored by getting players into the box, not by having them standing on the halfway line. The two wide players also have the responsibility of being auxiliary full-backs. The mentality is best demonstrated when we are defending corners. All eleven players retreat to the penalty area, the result being that when the ball is cleared the opposition is under no pressure and it is immediately returned towards our goal. It is fait to say that our method of play lacks flexibility, destroys any individual initiative being shown and allows the opposition to know exactly what to expect.

[/quote]

 

They''re good points Webbo. And that preperation was what posters on here were crying out for last season. When it was pointed out that would have a negative effect on goals scored they wouldn''t accept it. Just as now they won''t accept that to change the emphasis will have a negative effect on goals conceded. Where we are is where we are. Unrealistic expectations have raised the bar to an unrealistic place. All the comparisons with last season assume that by playing the same way we''d be safe by now. I think that''s a huge leap of faith. If we survive this season Hughton''s methods have been vindicated. I really don''t see where Lambert and last season is relevant. Mancini and last season doesn''t seem relevant to the title race does it? His methods this season have seen his side 10 points worse off.

 

 

[/quote]

Agree but if we don''t? Looking forward and assuming that we remain in the promised land, is there anything else to come? Is there another tier waiting to be unveiled? Or is it merely same again with a Lone Ranger called RVW up front?

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well I don''t believe we play for a draw Morph. I think that''s a myth. We try to win every game but just in a different way. We put a lot more emphasis on stopping the opposition. There''s a lot more discipline when we don''t have the ball. Whoever you are you won''t have the ball for about half the game. So despite being ignored on here it is important. The way we play is pretty much the way we have all season. And I would imagine the way we will for the rest of the season. I saw posters on here suggesting we played differently against Reading. I didn''t see any real difference it''s just that we scored two goals. I also can''t believe posters who say Swansea play the same was as they did last season. They are far more direct this year.  All these opinions seem to be based on results rather than what happens on the pitch.

 

But one thing I am aware of is that it''s entirely possible that to carry on how we were last season we could just as easily be relegated as mid-table. That''s why it''s irrelevant. As is Paul Lambert. 

 

I hope we don''t play gung ho football on Sunday. And I doubt we will. If we don''t win it will be said we played for a draw and if we win it will be said to be because Hughton changed his tactics. Because at the end of the day nobody ever complains about three points. Football is a results business because nobody complains about style of play when you win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

It is clear that a massive amount of our preparation is based on preventing the opposition from scoring and keeeping to a very strict defensive formation. This is acceptable up to a point but there is a lack of understanding of what we should do when we take possession of the ball. It is obvious that the two central midfield players are under instruction not to get ahead of the ball. As a result, when one of our two wide players eventually gets a cross into the box, there is only one player trying to get on the end of it. Goals are scored by getting players into the box, not by having them standing on the halfway line. The two wide players also have the responsibility of being auxiliary full-backs. The mentality is best demonstrated when we are defending corners. All eleven players retreat to the penalty area, the result being that when the ball is cleared the opposition is under no pressure and it is immediately returned towards our goal. It is fait to say that our method of play lacks flexibility, destroys any individual initiative being shown and allows the opposition to know exactly what to expect.

[/quote]

 

They''re good points Webbo. And that preperation was what posters on here were crying out for last season. When it was pointed out that would have a negative effect on goals scored they wouldn''t accept it. Just as now they won''t accept that to change the emphasis will have a negative effect on goals conceded. Where we are is where we are. Unrealistic expectations have raised the bar to an unrealistic place. All the comparisons with last season assume that by playing the same way we''d be safe by now. I think that''s a huge leap of faith. If we survive this season Hughton''s methods have been vindicated. I really don''t see where Lambert and last season is relevant. Mancini and last season doesn''t seem relevant to the title race does it? His methods this season have seen his side 10 points worse off.

 

 

[/quote]

 

I mentioned on another thread the need for continual improvement just to stand still in this league because everybody else is improving too.

 

Man United bought Van Persie, Man City went with the same again. Man City relinquish the title. Simplistic? Maybe, but I reckon it''s the truth.

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[quote user="haisbrohacker"]Under Lambert we often conceded the first goal and had to play catch up. Our home record of only 4 defeats is a positive point though the means to achieve this is the often main topic of debate on here. Hughton had a really difficult task to not only try and retain Premier football but win over fans from the Lambert love in. His record at Newcastle and Birmingham suggests that the way we are playing is a necessity rather than a change in his ideology. He did after all play for Spurs whose passing and play are legendary as some of our ex spud players demonstrated. My disappointment this season has been the away form especially against the teams in the lower half of the table. Our lack of true pace and negative tactics in these games has hurt us. If we are relegated there lies the cause. Give Hughton a chance, he knows whats wrong, i''m sure he is aware of what needs doing and the signing of Rip Van Winkle is the clearest indication of the changes ahead in tactics and players H[/quote]

The signing, in isolation, proves nothing. It is all going to depend on how he is used and what support he is given. Ten players obsessed with defence and stopping the opposition from scoring, plus RVW, is not going to accomplish much. 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]I wouldn''t take that with a pinch of salt if you could point me to where you posted it during that infamous 10 game unbeaten run.[/quote]Funny how you highlight the only decent spell (results wise) across the whole season as your focal point NN.I can already tell you that I didn''t post anything along those lines at that point, but neither have I spewed a load of vitriol during our much worse run of results after it...I''ve given Hughton a full season to show how he intends to play and improve the football on offer before I''ve offered complaints or criticism (as you simply can''t judge things on a handful of games in most cases), but I will say it very clearly now - despite our unbeaten 10 game run, we didn''t play well for most of it and I don''t like the style of football being served up by Hughton - then or now.I already accept that I''m in a minority with my views of quality football over results, what more do you want?

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[quote user="Webbo118"]Those who stand still always go backwards.[/quote]

Confirming WH''s comment.

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Indy may not have but i was stating during the 10 game run that the quality of our passing had to improve otherwise the run would not be sustainable.

I never thought it would get this bad though.

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It is not only simple it is wrong Warren

Everyone else isn''t improving, some teams improve and some go backwards, the level of football played by top PL teams has deteriorated overall compared to other European leagues.

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It is for me a clear indication of intent. Draw your own conclusion but for me if we retain our status the quality of the squad will improve to tackle the lack of pace and ingenuity in the present squad. RVW isn''t going to be the only addition, is he?

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[quote user="Vanwink"]It is not only simple it is wrong Warren Everyone else isn''t improving, some teams improve and some go backwards, the level of football played by top PL teams has deteriorated overall compared to other European leagues.[/quote]

 

That''s pony.

 

Of course teams are improving, squad investment is the biggest factor, those with more to invest, generally, improve quicker than others. See the rapid ascent of Chelsea and Man City.

 

Your comparison with other top leagues may hold some truth but that''s only because rate of improvement is different. Just because Man U have improved their squad this season doesn''t mean that they have improved more than Bayern Munich. What it did mean was that they had improved while Man City hadn''t, giving them the advantage in the title race.

 

We have improved our squad but we haven''t improved it at the same rate as Swansea have improved theirs, would perhaps be a more pertinent example for you Winky. Your argument that some teams go backwards would, presumably, include us but our squad is unquestionably better than last years, is it not?

 

 

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="nutty nigel"]I wouldn''t take that with a pinch of salt if you could point me to where you posted it during that infamous 10 game unbeaten run.[/quote]
Funny how you highlight the only decent spell (results wise) across the whole season as your focal point NN.

I can already tell you that I didn''t post anything along those lines at that point, but neither have I spewed a load of vitriol during our much worse run of results after it...

I''ve given Hughton a full season to show how he intends to play and improve the football on offer before I''ve offered complaints or criticism (as you simply can''t judge things on a handful of games in most cases), but I will say it very clearly now - despite our unbeaten 10 game run, we didn''t play well for most of it and I don''t like the style of football being served up by Hughton - then or now.

I already accept that I''m in a minority with my views of quality football over results, what more do you want?
[/quote]

 

We haven''t had a full season yet. For too many people the season ended last Saturday. Hughton has showed his intent for next season by already improving our striking options. He also showed his intent in January by identifying striking options. It''s not his fault that we didn''t get them. If anything it''s the executive directors fault. It''s not a huge leap of faith to assume if those signings had been made in January more attacking football would have been the outcome is it?

 

I don''t want anything Indy. My view is that if we stay up this season the football has been a means to an end. It''s also my view that we are building a team under the old cliche of "build from the back". Something that was being called for loudly last season. I dare say you think my view that with better attacking otions the football will improve is a huge leap of faith. I think assuming it won''t is a huge leap of faith. I think assuming we''d be better placed now if we''d carried on playing as we did last season is an even bigger leap of faith.

 

 

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The squad is better but we have gone backwards, and we all know why that is, poor management.

I think the top four or five teams are in fact weaker than they were a few years ago when we were dominating European football, look at Arsenal for example, fighting for a Champions League place but as ate am they are miles behind where they were a few years ago.

As for the Swans, yes they got Michu, but they didn''t do a bad job without him last night did they. They are a great comparator with ourselves and have shown the difference between a team that has been well managed and play to a system that all the players understand and buy into, whereas we and our players have regressed this season, on paper we do have a better squad but the crucial point is that we have a worse team!

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[quote user="Vanwink"]The squad is better but we have gone backwards, and we all know why that is, poor management. I think the top four or five teams are in fact weaker than they were a few years ago when we were dominating European football, look at Arsenal for example, fighting for a Champions League place but as ate am they are miles behind where they were a few years ago. As for the Swans, yes they got Michu, but they didn''t do a bad job without him last night did they. They are a great comparator with ourselves and have shown the difference between a team that has been well managed and play to a system that all the players understand and buy into, whereas we and our players have regressed this season, on paper we do have a better squad but the crucial point is that we have a worse team![/quote]

 

Only if you assume last seasons team would have more points. I might as well say this seasons team would have been safe before easter last year.

 

We are this season. This is a different team. What we did last season and particularly Paul Lambert are irrellevant.

 

 

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Hyperthetical for you Nutty, if this years Hughton team played last years Lambert team what do you honestly think would be the result?

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[quote user="Vanwink"]Hyperthetical for you Nutty, if this years Hughton team played last years Lambert team what do you honestly think would be the result?[/quote]

 

Can we establish if theis hyperthetical game is taking place this season or last season?

 

 

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The squad is better but we have gone backwards, and we all know why that is, poor management.
I think the top four or five teams are in fact weaker than they were a few years ago when we were dominating European football, look at Arsenal for example, fighting for a Champions League place but as ate am they are miles behind where they were a few years ago.
As for the Swans, yes they got Michu, but they didn''t do a bad job without him last night did they. They are a great comparator with ourselves and have shown the difference between a team that has been well managed and play to a system that all the players understand and buy into, whereas we and our players have regressed this season, on paper we do have a better squad but the crucial point is that we have a worse team!


I disagree, we have improved a great deal defensively, I hate to think where we would be now without Turner & Bassong...but other teams improve also. Hence Arsenal fighting for a Champions League place, they lost the best striker, pretty much the rest of thier team is the same....have they gone backwards?.. teams are improving all the time in the Premier League. We''ve beaten a Man Utd team that some would say is their strongest in years, we come within a gnats tit of drawing at home with the current Champions we are current within 3 points of 11th place. Granted Swansea have done well, but they change Managers like for like & continue to play the Swansea way. We have changed Magaers with a different attitude, I firmly believe he will get things right next season given the chance!!

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I don''t understand all this criticism of our attacking players. Our similarities to Stoke have grown as the season has progressed. We play an uber-defensive game just like Stoke, low possession, lots of long balls and our strikers score few goals just like Stoke.

Crouch has 6, Kenwyn Jones 3 and Cameron Jerome 3. The biggest goalscorer for them is winger Walters on 8.

For us Holt has 6, Hoolahan 3, and our wingers Snod 5 along with Pilks on 4.

Our home and away records are startlingly similar. Just Stoke don''t collapse like we do.

Stoke also successfully stay up every season. Although threaten little other than home and away supporters patience.

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Your missing my point Bunn, yes where would we be without Turner and Bassong, but you are talking there about individual players, I am talking about ow we play as a team. With those two at the back last season we would have finished even higher than we did yet this year we have been very very poor!

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Warren, how much of swanseas progression is down to appointing a manager very similar to the departing one?

He hasn''t made huge changes, only a few tweaks rather than an overhaul. It was evolution rather than revolution.

Lets not forget Swansea lost Caulker, Allen, Sinclair and Sigurdsson and still managed to cope. That''s a spine.

We appointed a manager that was the complete opposite of the departing one and he has completely ignored anything good, the past regime left.

I know for a fact that players are frustrated and want the shackles taken off to express themselves, rather than playing in fear and keeping it tight.

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He has followed the philosophy of their Chariman which was built by Martinez, followed on by Rodgers and now continues. This is a very interesting

Pint, Swansea have a style of play, as a club, which they are quite clear about and anyone coming to the club buys into it or doesn''t join.

Maybe we need to establish something similar at CR so we are clear from the outset the style of football we want to play and make appointments accordingly

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"we have improved a ''great deal'' defensively".....

....is a total myth....

We may have improved defensively, but not by very much.

How would Turner and Bassong look if they didn''t have two midfielders defending the centre ground 30 yards in front of them most of the time?

Turner and Bassong are better centre-halves than those we had last year, but considering we''re running with ''six defenders'' for much of the time, the improvement should have been vastly greater.

The most disappointing aspect for me, (and putting to one side that they are a northern club and can''t fill their ground) is if you ask any neutral who they would prefer to go down, Wigan or Norwich, judging on the evidence I''ve seen, the vast majority would pick Norwich.

Once a team the neutrals would support, after just one season under Hughton, Norwich''s former reputation seems somewhat tainted

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But don''t Swansea play very differently this season? Aren''t they far more direct? They used to play forever in their own half last season. Little triangles and going nowhere. The concensus on here was that....

 

They were boring!

 

 

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[quote user="unique"]"we have improved a ''great deal'' defensively"..... ....is a total myth.... We may have improved defensively, but not by very much. How would Turner and Bassong look if they didn''t have two midfielders defending the centre ground 30 yards in front of them most of the time? Turner and Bassong are better centre-halves than those we had last year, but considering we''re running with ''six defenders'' for much of the time, the improvement should have been vastly greater. The most disappointing aspect for me, (and putting to one side that they are a northern club and can''t fill their ground) is if you ask any neutral who they would prefer to go down, Wigan or Norwich, judging on the evidence I''ve seen, the vast majority would pick Norwich. Once a team the neutrals would support, after just one season under Hughton, Norwich''s former reputation seems somewhat tainted[/quote]

 

You just made that up didn''t you.

 

 

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cusdp, "I know for a fact that players are frustrated and want the shackles taken off to express themselves, rather than playing in fear and keeping it tight. "

That''s a telling point for me. From what we see the players have been told to restrain their attacking intent. Too many games have been there for the taking, but it''s all been a protect what we have.

Will he let them loose on Sunday? The game cries out for a "Your destiny is in your own hands, go out and win the game" mentality. I''m not convinced a point will be enough - though Wigan did look poor defensively last night.

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Its swings & roundabouts though wink...with Turner & Bassong last season we may have finished even higher, without them this season we probably would already be preparing for the Championship.

Teams around us are improving all the time. I feel Lambert had taken us as far as he could & had he still been here we would either be in a similar or worse position than we are now. Swansea empoly a style of manager for the Swansea style of football.. a few years ago we were known for our style of football, but a succession of Managers have ripped that apart. I mean people go on aboout it not being entertaining etc this season, let me throw a few names at you & see what people remember about the style of football & where we were under them:

Megson

Ricoh

Hamilton

Grant

Roeder

Gunn

The above list brings a coldness to my bones & sends shiver down my spine!!!!

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[quote user="can u sit down please"]Like I said nige. Tweaks. Not overhaul. They are playing 10 yards higher up the pitch but have kept there tempo, intricate passing and philosophies.[/quote]

 

It''s not just they''re playing higher, they are more direct. We way over-achieved last season when you compare us and Swans. They have sold at least 3 players for big money to premier clubs while we''ve had a few go out on loan in the Champs. All I see Hughton doing is trying to establish us in the top flight but building from the back.

 

 

 

 

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