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J I Muffington

Tactical Nous

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[quote user="unique"]Last year is far from irrelevant...and making up cr*p about ''getting over Paul Lambert'' suggests you interpret posts with a distinct lack of intelligence. Lambert clearly got the team better balanced, ie between attack and defence.. Holt, Pilkington, Bennett, Howson and Hoolahan have, by common consensus, played far worse than they did last season. For the match on Sunday they need to be playing with the skill, enthusiasm and freedom that they did for much of last season. If they can find that in themselves for just one game, then safety may still be reached. If they continue to play as Hughton sets them up, tactically and psychologically, then the chances are reduced. "For all you know Lambert might have got us relegated with 15 points and a minus 50 goal difference" could equally stupidly be argued that we may well have won the FA Cup, League Cup and be sat comfortably in eighth spot if Lambert had stayed and made a few key signings..... The only loss I''m suffering is the words to describe your apparent sense of superior opinion.[/quote]

 

What superior opinion? I bet you think your comments are superior! I think last year is irrelevant. I''ll tell you why.

 

Norwich last season -14

Norwich this season -22

Lambert last season -14

Lambert this season -21

 

It''s a whole knew competition and is every season.

 

 

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[quote user="JonnyH"]The real irony is that Hughton''s seemingly exclusive concentration on defensive

aspects has actually worsened the best form of defense, ie keeping the

ball. Certain weaknesses in our possessive game were apparent even under Lambert, but this area has markedly deteriorated under Hughton.A lot of people on here have now taken off their rose tinted glasses and realised that Hughton changed things too radically and failed to improve on the very basics. A team cannot play the way Hughton wants us to play if they can''t keep the ball, it''s as simple as that.[/quote]

Well said JonnyH

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nutty nigel wrote: It''s a whole knew competition and is every season.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely. But why no mention of Aston Villa''s points tally anymore? It has been brought up almost non stop for 8 months until now.

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]nutty nigel wrote: It''s a whole knew competition and is every season. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Absolutely. But why no mention of Aston Villa''s points tally anymore? It has been brought up almost non stop for 8 months until now.[/quote]

 

I thought we were discussing style of play. I was just responding to that. Then I thought you''d maybe stick your beak in about my spelling[;)]

 

Anyway buddy.. you posting on here is the only upside to a down season. The stats you want are : -

 

Lambert last season 47

Lambert this season 40

Norwich last season 47

Norwich this season 38

 

Fine margins.

 

 

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You really don''t get it.

Lambert and Villa have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Sunday is about getting the forwards and midfielders playing with the same sense of freedom as they did last season. Passing the ball with more purpose, crossing the ball nearer to last season''s accuracy, and attacking said crosses with last season''s conviction.

That may well mean giving the players far more licence to attack than they''ve seemingly been allowed to since December. It may also mean enlisting Holt''s views as to how to go about it - desperate times mean desperate measures.....

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[quote user="unique"]You really don''t get it. Lambert and Villa have absolutely nothing to do with it. Sunday is about getting the forwards and midfielders playing with the same sense of freedom as they did last season. Passing the ball with more purpose, crossing the ball nearer to last season''s accuracy, and attacking said crosses with last season''s conviction. That may well mean giving the players far more licence to attack than they''ve seemingly been allowed to since December. It may also mean enlisting Holt''s views as to how to go about it - desperate times mean desperate measures.....[/quote]

 

Hallelujah! You finally see it[Y]

 

Sunday is about winning the game. By your methods or Hughton''s own. I have more faith in Hughton''s methods than yours but that''s not neccessarily a lot of faith. In truth I don''t give a flying feck how we do it if we get that win. But however it''s done Lambert, Villa and last season will be irrelevant.

 

 

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]nutty nigel wrote: It''s a whole knew competition and is every season.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely. But why no mention of Aston Villa''s points tally anymore? It has been brought up almost non stop for 8 months until now.[/quote]this

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For somebody who follows the club on the match thread your communication skills are surprisingly poor....

 

 

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I think it less tactical nous than a lack of belief in the players squad giving him credible alternatives.

Lack of pace in back two and a weak central midfield pair appears to be the foundation for lack of forward play.

I do think he had a 3 window improvement plan with cash in the summer but the teams confidence and negative tactics and persistence with losing partnerships has caught him and us out.

My biggest criticism is he has not owned the poor form and addressed fundamental problems of a weak middle and poor passing that has been evident all season.

We have it in our hands still, but help gratefully received too. But hard to see a successful tactical change happenings this late in the season

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goal difference becoming more important at the moment - our improved defensive security of a couple of goals at the expense of 10 scored could become crucial come the season end.

Goals win points - only two teams have conceded more, one already relegated and the other conceded 12 goals less and truly defensively sound.

We have creativity in our team - lets get the ball to them in and around the penalty area on sunday

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I think it less tactical nous than a lack of belief in the players squad giving him credible alternatives.

Lack of pace in back two and a weak central midfield pair appears to be the foundation for lack of forward play.

I do think he had a 3 window improvement plan with cash in the summer but the teams confidence and negative tactics and persistence with losing partnerships has caught him and us out.

My biggest criticism is he has not owned the poor form and addressed fundamental problems of a weak middle and poor passing that has been evident all season.

We have it in our hands still, but help gratefully received too. But hard to see a successful tactical change happenings this late in the season

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Wrong.

Read the posts....understand the posts......then if you feel the need to reply, make it relevant and don''t misinterpret the post.

Simple.

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]nutty nigel wrote: It''s a whole knew competition and is every season.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely. But why no mention of Aston Villa''s points tally anymore? It has been brought up almost non stop for 8 months until now.[/quote]

So why do you only mention it now that they have more than us? Is it not the same?

You do realise that we still won''t be in the bottom 3 tonight however desperate you are for it to happen?

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[quote user="unique"]Wrong. Read the posts....understand the posts......then if you feel the need to reply, make it relevant and don''t misinterpret the post. Simple.[/quote]

 

Where does calling people names come in your list of posters etiquette?

 

What Lambert did here last season is irrelevant. You said it yourself. You may not like it but you did.

 

 

 

 

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The WAY the attacking players played last season is the relevance.

I suggest you follow the thread from the beginning, and then write your apology at the end......

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There are points on both sides. But Hughton seems unable/unwilling to change tactics either within or between games. It''s my view that what I would call negativity, others call defensiveness, has permeated the players mindset such that confidence and creativity have simply drained away. The players seem to have loss belief, whether in themselves, the tactics or the management.

Let''s hope we crawl over the line. Whatever the outcome I genuinely believe we''ll see a new management team at Carrow Road come August.

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[quote user="unique"]The WAY the attacking players played last season is the relevance.

I suggest you follow the thread from the beginning, and then write your apology at the end......[/quote]

I think you are completely clueless. Going Sunday?

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[quote user="unique"]The WAY the attacking players played last season is the relevance. I suggest you follow the thread from the beginning, and then write your apology at the end......[/quote]

 

Sorry buddy but that was last year''s team. Note that word. Team. Now if our attackers play like they did last year. Or at least those that are left. And the rest of the side play like they do this season the resulting performance won''t be much good. This is this season. Hughton''s the manager. And we have new players. New coaches amd new systems. It''s a different season and most of the other teams have made changes to the way they play too. Next years team will be different again. So will the tactics. So will the opposition.

 

Lambert is only relevant to us this season in the games against Villa. You admitted it yourself. But that was originally my opinion. Which is different to yours. How childish is it to call someone feckin feckless for disagreeing with you and then when they have the audacity to carry on disagreeing you suggest they should apologise. Unbelievable Jeff!! You have the debating skills of a three year old.

 

In my opinion our best chance of getting a result on Sunday is to set up much thge same way as we did against Swansea and Reading. To completely change the way the team is set out would be suicidal.

 

 

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Nutty, sorry but I''m partly with unique on this one. Last season does have relevance to the discussion.

The players that are common to both seasons - the Pilks et al, played without fear of mistakes under Lambert. Those same players seem to have been given a more rigid framework to play in under Hughton, I would say, to their detriment.

Under Lambert the philosophy appears to have been go out and attack, your opponents score 2, you go score 3. Under Hughton it seems to be more a case of go out and make sure you don''t concede focusing on our defensive strength. Unfortunately, you don''t win a game 0-0. So when Hughton''s team concedes his plan appears to fall apart.

With Swanseas win last night you can already envisage the mindset for Sunday. Play for the draw, rather than risk getting the win that would guarantee safety,

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Well I don''t believe we play for a draw Morph. I think that''s a myth. We try to win every game but just in a different way. We put a lot more emphasis on stopping the opposition. There''s a lot more discipline when we don''t have the ball. Whoever you are you won''t have the ball for about half the game. So despite being ignored on here it is important. The way we play is pretty much the way we have all season. And I would imagine the way we will for the rest of the season. I saw posters on here suggesting we played differently against Reading. I didn''t see any real difference it''s just that we scored two goals. I also can''t believe posters who say Swansea play the same was as they did last season. They are far more direct this year.  All these opinions seem to be based on results rather than what happens on the pitch.

 

But one thing I am aware of is that it''s entirely possible that to carry on how we were last season we could just as easily be relegated as mid-table. That''s why it''s irrelevant. As is Paul Lambert. 

 

I hope we don''t play gung ho football on Sunday. And I doubt we will. If we don''t win it will be said we played for a draw and if we win it will be said to be because Hughton changed his tactics. Because at the end of the day nobody ever complains about three points. Football is a results business because nobody complains about style of play when you win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Spot on Myshkin!

We also scored 4 against Swansea playing the same way.

Sometimes the margins are infinitesimal ...

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]Football is a results business because nobody complains about style of play when you win.[/quote]I do.It''s funny how people say that it''s all about results, but surely it''s actually about entertainment, because if that entertainment goes away, there''s often little incentive for people to attend matches or even watch them on tv if they think it''s going to be bloody awful to watch?Due to limited time and finances I rarely get to attend home games, and when the football on offer is as bad as it has been this season, then I''d rather save my £120+ costs and do something with the family instead (or even just save the cash for a rainy day and stay in for the weekend).I will always be disappointed if we don''t get the result, but as long as we''ve tried to do so and provided some decent football to watch in the process then I''m happy. I want us to stay in the prem because the quality of play in the league is better, as are the players, which more often leads to entertaining football.There is absolutely a place for a defensive outlook, and points in games where it makes sense to hold back and try to contain your opposition, but it cannot be the focus of your entire gameplan or we''ll be stuck watching paint dry for 90 minutes each week!I may well be in the minority with this view, but I cannot justify dropping good money into games where such bad football is on offer - regardless of whether we win or not, as the entertainment value simply isn''t there and cannot be mitigated by 3 points at the end of it.I''d rather be a yo-yo club that plays good football and gets caught at times, than a team like Stoke which serves up s**t every week but stays in the top flight...

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"We try to win every game but just in a different way."

Err......Man U......Stoke.....Wigan.....in recent times.......not a single shot on goal.......I''m surprised more managers haven''t hit on this ''different way''......

....very erudite....

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[quote user="unique"]"We try to win every game but just in a different way." Err......Man U......Stoke.....Wigan.....in recent times.......not a single shot on goal.......I''m surprised more managers haven''t hit on this ''different way''...... ....very erudite....[/quote]

 

So how on earth have we managed to get 38 points on the board in this league? What are your expectations?

 

 

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="nutty nigel"]Football is a results business because nobody complains about style of play when you win.[/quote]
I do.

It''s funny how people say that it''s all about results, but surely it''s actually about entertainment, because if that entertainment goes away, there''s often little incentive for people to attend matches or even watch them on tv if they think it''s going to be bloody awful to watch?

[/quote]

 

I wouldn''t take that with a pinch of salt if you could point me to where you posted it during that infamous 10 game unbeaten run.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well I don''t believe we play for a draw Morph. I think that''s a myth. We try to win every game but just in a different way. We put a lot more emphasis on stopping the opposition. There''s a lot more discipline when we don''t have the ball. Whoever you are you won''t have the ball for about half the game. So despite being ignored on here it is important. The way we play is pretty much the way we have all season. And I would imagine the way we will for the rest of the season. I saw posters on here suggesting we played differently against Reading. I didn''t see any real difference it''s just that we scored two goals. I also can''t believe posters who say Swansea play the same was as they did last season. They are far more direct this year.  All these opinions seem to be based on results rather than what happens on the pitch.

 

But one thing I am aware of is that it''s entirely possible that to carry on how we were last season we could just as easily be relegated as mid-table. That''s why it''s irrelevant. As is Paul Lambert. 

 

I hope we don''t play gung ho football on Sunday. And I doubt we will. If we don''t win it will be said we played for a draw and if we win it will be said to be because Hughton changed his tactics. Because at the end of the day nobody ever complains about three points. Football is a results business because nobody complains about style of play when you win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

It is clear that a massive amount of our preparation is based on preventing the opposition from scoring and keeeping to a very strict defensive formation. This is acceptable up to a point but there is a lack of understanding of what we should do when we take possession of the ball. It is obvious that the two central midfield players are under instruction not to get ahead of the ball. As a result, when one of our two wide players eventually gets a cross into the box, there is only one player trying to get on the end of it. Goals are scored by getting players into the box, not by having them standing on the halfway line. The two wide players also have the responsibility of being auxiliary full-backs. The mentality is best demonstrated when we are defending corners. All eleven players retreat to the penalty area, the result being that when the ball is cleared the opposition is under no pressure and it is immediately returned towards our goal. It is fait to say that our method of play lacks flexibility, destroys any individual initiative being shown and allows the opposition to know exactly what to expect.

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[quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well I don''t believe we play for a draw Morph. I think that''s a myth. We try to win every game but just in a different way. We put a lot more emphasis on stopping the opposition. There''s a lot more discipline when we don''t have the ball. Whoever you are you won''t have the ball for about half the game. So despite being ignored on here it is important. The way we play is pretty much the way we have all season. And I would imagine the way we will for the rest of the season. I saw posters on here suggesting we played differently against Reading. I didn''t see any real difference it''s just that we scored two goals. I also can''t believe posters who say Swansea play the same was as they did last season. They are far more direct this year.  All these opinions seem to be based on results rather than what happens on the pitch.

 

But one thing I am aware of is that it''s entirely possible that to carry on how we were last season we could just as easily be relegated as mid-table. That''s why it''s irrelevant. As is Paul Lambert. 

 

I hope we don''t play gung ho football on Sunday. And I doubt we will. If we don''t win it will be said we played for a draw and if we win it will be said to be because Hughton changed his tactics. Because at the end of the day nobody ever complains about three points. Football is a results business because nobody complains about style of play when you win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

It is clear that a massive amount of our preparation is based on preventing the opposition from scoring and keeeping to a very strict defensive formation. This is acceptable up to a point but there is a lack of understanding of what we should do when we take possession of the ball. It is obvious that the two central midfield players are under instruction not to get ahead of the ball. As a result, when one of our two wide players eventually gets a cross into the box, there is only one player trying to get on the end of it. Goals are scored by getting players into the box, not by having them standing on the halfway line. The two wide players also have the responsibility of being auxiliary full-backs. The mentality is best demonstrated when we are defending corners. All eleven players retreat to the penalty area, the result being that when the ball is cleared the opposition is under no pressure and it is immediately returned towards our goal. It is fait to say that our method of play lacks flexibility, destroys any individual initiative being shown and allows the opposition to know exactly what to expect.

[/quote]

 

They''re good points Webbo. And that preperation was what posters on here were crying out for last season. When it was pointed out that would have a negative effect on goals scored they wouldn''t accept it. Just as now they won''t accept that to change the emphasis will have a negative effect on goals conceded. Where we are is where we are. Unrealistic expectations have raised the bar to an unrealistic place. All the comparisons with last season assume that by playing the same way we''d be safe by now. I think that''s a huge leap of faith. If we survive this season Hughton''s methods have been vindicated. I really don''t see where Lambert and last season is relevant. Mancini and last season doesn''t seem relevant to the title race does it? His methods this season have seen his side 10 points worse off.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well I don''t believe we play for a draw Morph. I think that''s a myth. We try to win every game but just in a different way. We put a lot more emphasis on stopping the opposition. There''s a lot more discipline when we don''t have the ball. Whoever you are you won''t have the ball for about half the game. So despite being ignored on here it is important. The way we play is pretty much the way we have all season. And I would imagine the way we will for the rest of the season. I saw posters on here suggesting we played differently against Reading. I didn''t see any real difference it''s just that we scored two goals. I also can''t believe posters who say Swansea play the same was as they did last season. They are far more direct this year.  All these opinions seem to be based on results rather than what happens on the pitch.

 

But one thing I am aware of is that it''s entirely possible that to carry on how we were last season we could just as easily be relegated as mid-table. That''s why it''s irrelevant. As is Paul Lambert. 

 

I hope we don''t play gung ho football on Sunday. And I doubt we will. If we don''t win it will be said we played for a draw and if we win it will be said to be because Hughton changed his tactics. Because at the end of the day nobody ever complains about three points. Football is a results business because nobody complains about style of play when you win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

It is clear that a massive amount of our preparation is based on preventing the opposition from scoring and keeeping to a very strict defensive formation. This is acceptable up to a point but there is a lack of understanding of what we should do when we take possession of the ball. It is obvious that the two central midfield players are under instruction not to get ahead of the ball. As a result, when one of our two wide players eventually gets a cross into the box, there is only one player trying to get on the end of it. Goals are scored by getting players into the box, not by having them standing on the halfway line. The two wide players also have the responsibility of being auxiliary full-backs. The mentality is best demonstrated when we are defending corners. All eleven players retreat to the penalty area, the result being that when the ball is cleared the opposition is under no pressure and it is immediately returned towards our goal. It is fait to say that our method of play lacks flexibility, destroys any individual initiative being shown and allows the opposition to know exactly what to expect.

[/quote]

 

They''re good points Webbo. And that preperation was what posters on here were crying out for last season. When it was pointed out that would have a negative effect on goals scored they wouldn''t accept it. Just as now they won''t accept that to change the emphasis will have a negative effect on goals conceded. Where we are is where we are. Unrealistic expectations have raised the bar to an unrealistic place. All the comparisons with last season assume that by playing the same way we''d be safe by now. I think that''s a huge leap of faith. If we survive this season Hughton''s methods have been vindicated. I really don''t see where Lambert and last season is relevant. Mancini and last season doesn''t seem relevant to the title race does it? His methods this season have seen his side 10 points worse off.

 

 

[/quote]

The view is too simplistic. There are numerous ways of playing football regards to team formations and tactics. It is not all defence or attack, Lambert v Hughton. The latter is clearly well organised, well prepared and knows what he is doing defensively. It is all a question of balance and I would suggest that it has tipped too far in favour of defence. You will not score enough goals to win matches if you are not prepared to commit players to situations where they are able to have chances of scoring. That clearly is the situation we are in. How many times have our three main central midfielders netted this season? I would suggest that the answer does not give major encouragement to survival in any league.

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Nutty, do you concur that the change in emphasis has made the "watch" a dull affair? The attacking threat from City has been stifled in preference to defensive solidity.

There''s no "bust-a-gut" running from the centre midfield pair trying to get into the box to support the wide players. As Webbo points out the ball into the box has been to one player, no-one falling up for any knock downs or clearances.

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