Intersting read & poll

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Vanwink"]Then there will be less people making a contribution, new posters very quickly get fed up with all the personal stuff, they don''t follow it and want to talk about Norwich City[/quote]

 

Take the Pepsi Challenge then. For every so called good poster who has run away I will name you two so called good posters who still post...

 

[can u sit down please 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Is your point that last season''s players were good enough and didn''t need to be changed? I''m a bit lost. Last season''s squad were good enough for last season. I would say that this season''s signings have improved it especially when you consider the players they replaced. Bassong and Turner in. Ward and Ayala out? Or am I missing something?

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

The constant referral to "we would have been found out this year?" Why? What''s stopping us pant wetters saying we have been found out this yr? I''m more worried about next year than I was this year.

My biggest gripe with Hughton is he dismissed all the foundations left. All the recent appointments, Laudrup,Clark and even fergie have stated continuity as important. We seemed to opt for the complete opposite of what we had, when all we needed was some small tweaks rather than an overhaul.

Like I always say. Evolution not revolution.

Also indys post and mr b''s that I can''t view as my phone is playing up! They make some fantastic posts.

They deserve an answer.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="can u sit down please"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Is your point that last season''s players were good enough and didn''t need to be changed? I''m a bit lost. Last season''s squad were good enough for last season. I would say that this season''s signings have improved it especially when you consider the players they replaced. Bassong and Turner in. Ward and Ayala out? Or am I missing something?

 

 

 

 

[/quote] The constant referral to "we would have been found out this year?" Why? What''s stopping us pant wetters saying we have been found out this yr? I''m more worried about next year than I was this year. My biggest gripe with Hughton is he dismissed all the foundations left. All the recent appointments, Laudrup,Clark and even fergie have stated continuity as important. We seemed to opt for the complete opposite of what we had, when all we needed was some small tweaks rather than an overhaul. Like I always say. Evolution not revolution. Also indys post and mr b''s that I can''t view as my phone is playing up! They make some fantastic posts. They deserve an answer.[/quote]

 

I have never suggested "we would be found out this year". I also believe we''d have improved our team in the close season just as Hughton did. Probably not the same players though because Lambert did buy Bennett and Ayala for the premier league and didn''t buy them not to play them. Who knows he may have bought a forward. A big money forward. Or perhaps he was knocked back by the board on that before he left. But it''s a huge leap of faith to say he woulkdn''t have changed things. But we never found out and never will find out.

 

Until you can get closure on Lambert you will never be able to move on buddy. And his going certainly wasn''t my fault.

 

 

[can u sit down please 0]

I haven''t really mentioned lambert tho have I?

[Highland Canary 76]

Mr B makes a salient point. I really think the bigging up of the opposition has had, what I assume to be the unintended effect, of reducing the attacking belief of our players. Thus, sorties into the opposition half, especially a way from home, have become individually a source of celebration.

I think a point will be enough on Sunday, and believe we have a fighting chance of achieving this objective, but my reservations about tactics remain deep-seated.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="can u sit down please"]I haven''t really mentioned lambert tho have I?[/quote]

 

Is that the best you can do buddy?

 

Look Danny, I''ve tried to answer everything you asked me to. If it''s not about Lambert then what is it about? How can you expect me to compare this season''s players to last season''s players but only mention Hughton?

 

I''m gonna watch tv with the missus, that''s what you''ve driven me too!!![8-|][co]

 

 

 

 

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

Why hasn''t Smudger blogged about the ten game unbeaten run, the wins against Manu, Arsenal, Everton, Spurs? Why only select the negative stuff to blog about?

Without balance it comes across as an embittered rant. And all in hindsight, too. Any mug can do hindsight.

[BOO 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Vanwink"]Then there will be less people making a contribution, new posters very quickly get fed up with all the personal stuff, they don''t follow it and want to talk about Norwich City[/quote]

 

Take the Pepsi Challenge then. For every so called good poster who has run away I will name you two so called good posters who still post...

 

[/quote]

So by your reckoning there''s 30 % gone, in the context that we are discussing, ie people responding to the poster rather than the post that is sad!

[drurys testamonials V 15 0]

[quote user="flying high up in the sky"]I agree with the majority. Hughton has done the job asked of him this season ie keeping us in the prem. we will improve next season just give him a chance. He can''t help it that it doesn''t say paul lambert on his birth certificate.[/quote]

 

I''m hoping he has but will be more convinced after tomorrow''s game with another 3 points on the table.

[drurys testamonials V 15 0]

[quote user="paul moy"]

I agree particulary with not changing a winning side, especially when wins are so hard to come by in the prem and I also agree strongly about the poor usage of Elliot Bennett. Winning breeds confidence and competition for places also breeds a winning mentality. Hughton appears to come from the socialist school mentality where everybody has to have ''prizes''.

 

[/quote]

 

The season we won the Championship with Worthy as manager we had a relatively unchanged side as were very lucky with having few injuries and suspensions so pretty much started with same 11 almost every game.

[ncfcstar 287]

It is chaotic nowadays, but no more chaotic than when Smudger was on here posting his idiocy.

[can u sit down please 0]

Ok. Why dismiss all the foundations that were in place, in favour of an overhaul. This, when continuity seems prominent with other newly appointed managers. It wasn''t broke and all that.....we know we needed new additions. You need them every yr.but it''s the way you get them to play that important.

Maybe Hughton misjudged the strength of our attack and thought by getting in lots of defenders, it would balance itself out?

And to quote Brownstone

"I find the whole "players aren''t good enough for this level" thing a curious argument.

When did you decide they weren''t good enough? Last year when they finished a comfortable 12th over 10 points clear of trouble? Or when they were in 7th in December after the squad was improved in the summer? Or was it sometime after?

I can''t for the life of me understand why some people have the opinion that the lads have reverted to Championship/League One standard. I still 100% believe in them and whilst most of them wouldn''t get a sniff at a top 6 club they''re more than good enough to compete at this level, with a few quality additions and the right tactics and management they can kick on next season.

I think Hughton''s constant talking up of the opposition has worked on some of you. Losing faith in the players is a far more damaging viewpoint than losing faith in the management. "

These are questions that many anti Hughton posters just can''t figure out? Have you got any answers?

[TIL 1010 4,722]

Doomcaster used to say that hindsight is an exact science and we have it by the bucket full on here.Nobody threw their hands up in horror when Hughton was appointed but there were those who may not have had him as their number one choice.That i can understand but as the season has panned out the way it has is there really any need for the i always wanted Poyet or i always wanted so and so brigade to come on here giving it the billy big bollox ? Had we been safe going into tomorrows game nobody would give a flying fig about who was their number one choice for the job when Lambert left. Poyet or whoever would be a distant memory and it is no good harping on about what might have been because as i said at the start hindsight is an exact science.

I say to CUSDP and Mr.Smith were you against the appointment of Hughton or was it just a case of you fancied someone else ?

[can u sit down please 0]

Tilly, the only time I was happy with the appointment was when it won me a few quid.

In all seriousness he was never my first choice. I always wanted Gus Poyet.

At Birmingham, Hughtons football was predominantly defensive. 1 up top, flood the midfield,keep it tight & Substitutions used sparingly (look at his first 6 games in charge of Brum as a pattern).

Add that to taking over a young and attacking side, just felt completely unbalanced.

The decision didn''t really fill me with confidence and it felt a step backwards.

I guess it was a mixture of not wanting him and being against the appointment.

I tried to be open minded but ,as the season has progressed tactics,substitutions, brand of football,misuse of players and the constant talking up of the opposition have only reaffirmed my initial concerns.

I don''t think I''m the minority either. I remember people expressing concerns in pre season, only to be shot down.

Hindsight is a beautiful thing but foresight certainly helps.

Tilly, you as much as anyone know this isn''t a knee jerk reaction from me. I have honestly felt this for the long part of a dour season.

[Mr Brownstone 0]

I don''t think that''s really the point Tilly but I''ll answer your question. I wasn''t horrified with Hughton, I hadn''t seen much of him at Brum to be honest but I was obviously aware of his impressive Championship season with the Toon and his excellent reputation within the game. I thought at the time it was a solid appointment.

I think the point of this whole thread, and probably Smudger''s blog entry (although it''s hard to tell with him!), is that people are frustrated with other fans refusal to acknowledge that Hughton has made a bit of a balls up of a very promising situation and some, not all, are excusing his performance by saying that the players aren''t up to it.

I''ll argue that point all day long.

[ron obvious 1,501]

For God''s sake.

I''m becoming totally exasperated by all this.

The players didn''t BECOME Champs players, they ARE Champs players.

I''ve explained what happened last season till I''m blue in the face; nobody has ever attempted to refute my arguments, just ignore them & blithely carry on insisting that our players had qualities & abilities they didn''t. Fox can pass, but he can''t tackle, head or score. Wes is fantastically skilled - with his left foot - but is still prone to losing the ball in dangerous situations & does not have enough end product. You can go round the whole squad & you''ll find players who have major deficiencies (Barnett) or inconsistencies (Pilkington).

If you don''t believe me, try making a realistic, objective evaluation of last year''s squad on the open market.

How many Prem teams would have been interested??

They are not rubbish players, but they are not Premiership standard. That is all.

Every time a team attacked us last year they looked like scoring. They didn''t, through a combination of profligacy, heroic defending & sheer luck. You cannot build a sustainable survival plan on that.

And when will Holt ever score 17 goals in a season again? Or Morison 9??

Villa, with a far superior forward line to ours, look like they''re just going to scrape home. If Lambert doesn''t do something about their defence next season he''ll be in big trouble - much more than us, if we survive & make a couple of RVW type signings.

There wasn''t much in the way of ''foundations'' left from last season; in business terms it was like a successful business founded on the talents of its owner, but with very little in the way of assets.

We need to build up our assets. The present manager shows every sign of being the man to do that.

[can u sit down please 0]

Now off out with te kids but ill reply later!

[Indy_Bones 441]

In some ways, the more ardent supporters of Hughton seem to be taking a somewhat religious approach to dealing with questions that they can''t (or don''t want) to answer.When we ask why they think he''ll suddenly change from playing the ultra defensive, dire football we''ve had this season, into playing good quality, attacking football over the course of the summer (when there''s been ZERO evidence to suggest he''s even thought about playing in that manner this season), we get told that we must have ''faith'' that he''ll do it, and then they often go on to mention RVW as one of the key indicators for this (even though it''s been completely obvious to even a blind man that we needed better strikers going forwards)...When we ask why he made sweeping changes to the style of play that enabled us to finish 12th last season, then apparently it''s because the squad had somehow morphed into a team of championship/league 1 cloggers overnight, who had massively overperformed last season and were bound to be relegated this year which is why the ''Messiah'' left us to go to Villa...When we ask why our manager spends more time ''praising'' our opposition than giving credit to our own players and showing them that he has ''belief'' and confidence in them, we are often met with stony silence or misguided comments about professionalism and respect (Yes, for the other bloody teams in the league).When we ask why many of the players who were so impressive last season (and others like Holt and Wes for a couple of years before as well), have had their confidence destroyed, roles changed or even left alone in the desert (Fox), we get told that we were ''worshipping false idols'' and that these players were lost souls beyond redemption, and that we must abandon all hope in them in order to greet the true disciples that will surely descend from above in the summer transfer window!Will we ever get suitable answers to these questions or will we instead be ''struck down'' for having the temerity to question the decisions and thought processes put into play by Hughton since his arrival...?

[Mr Brownstone 0]

Couldn''t disagree with you more there Ron. No one is saying they''re good enough for a top 6 club, but they have proved over 2 seasons that they are good enough to compete with the rest. No one is claiming that any of them are the compete player either, they''d be playing for Barca if they were.

They do however all have strengths and for the vast bulk of the season we haven''t played to those and we certainly haven''t got the best out of them.

Yes last season''s squad looked leaky at the back, we all know that and no one is saying it didn''t. Had Lambert stayed I''m sure that is an area he too would have focused on improving.

What people are trying to say is that they feel an evolution of the playing style was required, not a revolution.

We''re asking attack minded players to temper their natural game and play a different style, and then we''re saying they''re not good enough when they don''t perform well as a square peg in a round hole.

[Yellow Wal 314]

can u sit down please wrote the following post at 11/05/2013 9:36 AM:

Ok. Why dismiss all the foundations that were in place, in favour of an overhaul. This, when continuity seems prominent with other newly appointed managers. It wasn''t broke and all that.....we know we needed new additions. You need them every yr.but it''s the way you get them to play that important.

Maybe Hughton misjudged the strength of our attack and thought by getting in lots of defenders, it would balance itself out?

And to quote Brownstone

"I find the whole "players aren''t good enough for this level" thing a curious argument.

When did you decide they weren''t good enough? Last year when they finished a comfortable 12th over 10 points clear of trouble? Or when they were in 7th in December after the squad was improved in the summer? Or was it sometime after?

I can''t for the life of me understand why some people have the opinion that the lads have reverted to Championship/League One standard. I still 100% believe in them and whilst most of them wouldn''t get a sniff at a top 6 club they''re more than good enough to compete at this level, with a few quality additions and the right tactics and management they can kick on next season.

I think Hughton''s constant talking up of the opposition has worked on some of you. Losing faith in the players is a far more damaging viewpoint than losing faith in the management. "

These are questions that many anti Hughton posters just can''t figure out? Have you got any answers?

One point at a time:

Ok. Why dismiss all the foundations that were in place, in favour of an overhaul. This, when continuity seems prominent with other newly appointed managers. It wasn''t broke and all that.....we know we needed new additions. You need them every yr.but it''s the way you get them to play that important.

Continuity wasn''t possible because we had been sussed out by other Premiership sides just as Blackpool were sussed out after a very promising start to their Premiership season. Of the last 14 games we drew 3 and lost 8, the writing was on the wall, we were by then no longer punching above our weight but back to our true strength. Why else was everyone saying that survival was the aim this season? Had we continued with the same style of play, with either the same players or a few new ones (especially if they were similar to Lambert''s latest signing we had) we would have been relegated long before now. Lambert knew this, he could see the writing on the wall, so he left for a team with around 15 internationals in their squad.

Maybe Hughton misjudged the strength of our attack and thought by getting in lots of defenders, it would balance itself out?

No, too many supporters misjudge the strength of our attack. It is poor! We have little or no pace and little or no creativity. Hughton could have spread his budget over more average players (as we seem to have done in the past) or he could try to add true quality, as in Bassong, as he did. The defence desperately needed strengthening, this he did.

"I find the whole "players aren''t good enough for this level" thing a curious argument.

When did you decide they weren''t good enough? Last year when they finished a comfortable 12th over 10 points clear of trouble? Or when they were in 7th in December after the squad was improved in the summer? Or was it sometime after?

I am pleased we reached safety as early as we did, perhaps if Blackpool had managed a few more points when they were going well they would have been safe, the comparison between the two clubs, the style of play and the quality of the players is remarkable. How many of Blackpool''s players moved on to bigger things after ''proving'' themselves in the Premiership.

I can''t for the life of me understand why some people have the opinion that the lads have reverted to Championship/League One standard. I still 100% believe in them and whilst most of them wouldn''t get a sniff at a top 6 club they''re more than good enough to compete at this level, with a few quality additions and the right tactics and management they can kick on next season.

For as long as I can remember there have always been rumours about our best players being the target for better clubs. There are few these days. Ruddy to Arsenal perhaps is the strongest. We also get a few very dodgy rumours, Johnson to Swansea, Pilkington to Stoke. The problem is that our players have to be at the top of their game to be good enough. Surely we want players who, when at the top of their game are outstanding and when average are good enough. We have had many at the top of their game ......... and good enough but I cannot see two of our players, if the worst happened and we were relegated like Wolves, being sold for more than £20M as happened with Wolves. Sorry, but our players are not that good.

I think Hughton''s constant talking up of the opposition has worked on some of you. Losing faith in the players is a far more damaging viewpoint than losing faith in the management.

Perhaps I will agree that Hughton''s honesty in saying that you get no easy games in the Premiership has been heard too many times this season. We all know what the opposition is capable of otherwise it would not be in the Premiership.

[morty 0]

Good stuff Yellow wall[Y]

[Mr Brownstone 0]

Why doesn''t your lay sentence apply to us Yellow Wall?

And you''re making huge assumptions as to why Lambert left. I think the claim that he left because he knew he''d get relegated here do him a huge disservice.

Posting on my phone so I can''t remember the rest of your post but come on, our attack is poor?! Check out how many goals it scored last year. It is not poor, the way it is being played is.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="can u sit down please"]Tilly, the only time I was happy with the appointment was when it won me a few quid.

In all seriousness he was never my first choice. I always wanted Gus Poyet.

At Birmingham, Hughtons football was predominantly defensive. 1 up top, flood the midfield,keep it tight & Substitutions used sparingly (look at his first 6 games in charge of Brum as a pattern)[/quote]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_Football_League_ChampionshipSorry, that''s just not true."A team who played "predominantly defensive" football with 1 up top and flooding the midfield" - and yet they finished 4th highest scorers in the league with 78 goals.Defending well - especially at home - is not the same thing as defensive football.  37 goals in 23 home games is hardly underachieving.  41 goals away from home, conceding 37, made them pretty entertaining opponents on the road.I wish people wouldn''t make these things up, or would at least put some facts into their posts.

Birmingham City 2011-12 Results summary

Overall								Home						Away
Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD
46	20	16	10	78	51	+27	76	13	9	1	37	14	+23	7	7	9	41	37	+4

[can u sit down please 0]

Most of that was told to me by my brum supporting friend who is more informed than you.

Also look at there first 6 games and the use of subs. I was also told to do this by him and it made me realise that he won''t change.

The use of zigic is trying to be replicated in his use of Holt. Two completely diff forwards.

[ron obvious 1,501]

Mr B

What I am saying is that last year''s squad was a Championship level one. Most of them wouldn''t have got into a bottom 6 Prem squad, let alone top 6.

Once again, look at the value of our players.

They managed to compete over last season. The chances of our defence coping without the likes of Bassong, Garrido or Turner were, I suggest unlikely. Where''s Whitbread playing now? Ward? Barnett is apparently playing well for Cardiff, but I''m afraid I remember too many disastrous errors.

They were a 90% squad. The factors I keep mentioning can make up the extra 10%, but they are not sustainable.

To survive long term we need better players. I believe Hughton will bring in those players. I sincerely expect the performances to be far more entertaining when he does. I may be wrong. But his record at other clubs does not suggest an endemically negative approach.

[Yellow Wal 314]

Mr Brownstone wrote the following post at 11/05/2013 10:41 AM:

Why doesn''t your lay sentence apply to us Yellow Wall?

And you''re making huge assumptions as to why Lambert left. I think the claim that he left because he knew he''d get relegated here do him a huge disservice.

Posting on my phone so I can''t remember the rest of your post but come on, our attack is poor?! Check out how many goals it scored last year. It is not poor, the way it is being played is.

I am aware that in the final 1/3 of the season we scored 15 goals in those 14 games. And this was from a team whose strength was its attack.

Blackpool scored more than us in their Premiership season but only won 2 of their last 18 matches.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="can u sit down please"]Most of that was told to me by my brum supporting friend who is more informed than you.

Also look at there first 6 games and the use of subs. I was also told to do this by him and it made me realise that he won''t change.

The use of zigic is trying to be replicated in his use of Holt. Two completely diff forwards.[/quote]The stats don''t lie, and predominantly defensive teams don''t end up being the 4th highest scoring team in the league.It''s possible your Brum supporting friend doesn''t understand statistics, or football, or both.  However, his statements appear to be untrue, wouldn''t you say?Zigic made 20 starts & 15 sub appearances so again not consistent with Holt who has played 90% of games this season.Feel free to carry on making things up though [Y]

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="can u sit down please"]

Also look at there first 6 games and the use of subs. [/quote]Why are you judging Hughton''s substitution strategy on the first 6 games of the 2011-12 season with a different club & different players?This is as ridiculous as the often trotted out "if we ignore the 10 game unbeaten run..."

[Mr Brownstone 0]

I agree that we needed to strengthen to stay out of trouble and push on, which we did (as we would have with whoever was in charge) yet we''ve gone backwards. I don''t believe that Hughton has got the best out of what he had available.

I still think the 4 consecutive defeats at the end of the now distant 10 game run have a lot to do with the approach adopted since the turn of the year.

[Yelloow Since 72 54]

Ron and Indy have certainly set out the opposite ends of this issue, but ,IMO, the answer lies somewhere in between. Looking at last year''s team, I think it was a mixture of CL players (eg. Tierney, Fox, Whitbread, Barnett, Lappin, Wilbraham, Jackson, C.Martin) and ''in-betweeners'' (eg.Hoolahan, R.Martin, both Bennetts, Howson, Surman, Pilkington). The only players who would have been likely to appeal to PL teams were Holt because of his 14 goals, Ruddy and Johnson. CH added PL players in Bassong, Turner, Garrido (though some might see him as an ''in-betweener''), Tettey, Whittaker and Snodgrass, who was the only real addition to the attack. I''m a supporter of CH, but I do think that it was a mistake to not strengthen the attack further (he tried, but didn''t succeed until January, and then in only a minor fashion). As a result, the team, rightly or wrongly, gravitated to its strengths, which were defensive. Unlike Indy, I do accept that RvW is a recognition of this by both CH and the club.

The other thing about last year is that PL made the most of the new excitement of being in the PL, and that was going to be hard to reproduce this year (the major factor in the ''second season syndrome''). There was also the good fortune of winning 2 away matches after the opposition (Bolton & QPR) lost players through stupid red cards. I think PL knew that this year was going to be difficult, so he left. What he has done at Villa does not convince me that he would have done better than CH has here.

As for CH praising the opposition, this is what PL also did before every match (''they''re a really good team and it''s going to be really tough''). It''s what all managers do before and often after matches. I do think he has also praised the team and individual players after matches and like, PL, he has avoided any criticism in public.

I''m sorry, I don''t accept the argument that players have had their confidence destroyed by CH. I think Wes has played well for much of this season (and lost the ball less). Holt hasn''t been the same player, possibly because of a drop in form, the second season syndrome, or playing much of the time as a sole striker, though when playing with another striker, he hasn''t seemed noticeably better, IMO). Fox is a great passer, but has little else to his game, IMO.

No religious zeal, Indy, just analysis. I do think things will move on next season because RvW and other PL quality players will be added and the ''second season syndrome'' will be a thing of the past. Now, let''s get tomorrow sorted! OTBC!