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Plastic Scouser

Two Tier Management

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The general opinion on this board is that Worthy should stay (not mine, but I appear to be in a minority).
 
Has anyone thought about the option of running a two tier management system - with Worthy "managing" the club but a more experienced and more intuitive person running the football side of things...?   So Worthy would be rewarded for all his successes but we bring in a coach who has the cojones to pick a team that can actually go out to win games and a coach who has the guts to replace the weakest link (Fleming/Holt etc) without any misguided sense of loyalty...
 
Just a thought?

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That way lies danger mate.

I don''t think that approach has had any success whatsoever. No-one knows who has the final say, the players get conficting advice, and the team pretty much become crap.

Stick with what we''ve got and re-evaluate in January if needs be. Worthy will get the job done.

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[quote]That way lies danger mate. I don''t think that approach has had any success whatsoever. No-one knows who has the final say, the players get conficting advice, and the team pretty much become crap. St...[/quote]

January would be far too late, Walrus, the first 10 or 12 games is usually a good indication of how it''ll work out.

Its not a bad idea Plastic Scouser, as long as you don''t end up with a David Pleat in the background!.

However, if you had said Burly or better still Mike Walker, I''d have taken your hands offs, ie. yes please!. 

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To be honest Plastic S I think you''re speaking a load of cojones.

How many times have we seen this kind of ''director of football'' approach breakdown in arguments over who has responsibility for what?

Worthy took us out of this division as Champions two seasons ago when nobody expected it at the beginning of that season.

Now we''ve got a far stronger team than last time. As long as we don''t get struck down by injuries we''ve got a great chance of going back up again. Lets just back him to do again what he''s already done before.

I wouldn''t even start thinking about Worthy''s position unless we are outside the playoff places come January.

And by the way how much extra money is this extra level of management you advocate going to cost the club?

 

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[quote]January would be far too late, Walrus, the first 10 or 12 games is usually a good indication of how it''ll work out. Its not a bad idea Plastic Scouser, as long as you don''t end up with a David Pleat ...[/quote]

In the first 10-12 games? What about Palarses promotion season?

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I think we need to get away from the "Worthy got us promoted" route.   Let''s face it, Megson got WBA promoted...
 
It''s about the gulf (and there is one) between Premiership quality & Championship quality.   I hate to say it but I believe Dowie is a better manager than Worthy - he suffered from a lack of quality.  We on the other hand have the quality in the team but suffer from lack of quality in the managerial dept...
 
But hey, it''s a long way to go, let''s give the guy another chance and hope he takes it!  Or else.....

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Correct me if I''m wrong, but didn''t Megson get West Brom promoted TWICE. At the moment that''s where we''re at.  Trying to get out of the Championship and back into the Premiership again.

And whilst it''s perfectly fair for you to quote Megson to support your argument it''s also perfectly fair to quote the example of Curbishley at Charlton. He did the yoyo thing for three or four seasons with Charlton and the rest as they say is history.

Where would Charlton be now if they had panicked and appointed a ''director of football'' over Curbishley''s head the first time they got relegated from the Premier?

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And where is Megson now???
 
Ah but how would you compare Curbishley versus Worthington - which one of these two is the better manager - in all honesty now?    I don''t have anything against Worthy but I just don''t think he''s got the nous to KEEP us in the Premiership with decent players - Curbishley you could compare to Dowie - he''s got that special something that means once he''s achieved the goal of keeping his team in the Premiership he can do it again and again (plus of course his teams get more experience playing at the highest levels...).
 
Ultimately we should be equating ourselves to the likes of Charlton, Birmingham & Bolton - there''s no reason why we can''t be their equals - what the team need is the appropriate guidance to get them there...

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Didn''t we try this ''two-tier management'' once before, with Rioch-Hamilton?

That worked out so well didn''t it....

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[quote]January would be far too late, Walrus, the first 10 or 12 games is usually a good indication of how it''ll work out. Its not a bad idea Plastic Scouser, as long as you don''t end up with a David Pleat ...[/quote]

I do not have much faith in the two tier management system as you inevitably have two people with differing views trying to be the alpha male and inevitably and eventually one of them is going to resent it.  Having a mentor for Worthy is something I have proposed before to get worthy up to speed faster but I cant see this happening now either.

As far as early matches are concerned I think we were mid-table after the forest game 5 games in, having been fortunate enough to scrape unconvincing wins at home against the to be relegated wimbledon and a poor rotherham.   We were looking very poor - as such you could argue that we will know within 6-7 games what our level is likely to be.

That season after 11 games were in a play off place but that has to be balanced by the fact that there is NO transfer window for us to get of of jail with by loaning the likes of hux or crouch...

Worthy is the man with the promotion record from this league and is the man to start the season, and on his own.  Just as some of the players struggled with the step up I suspect Worthy will flourish with the step back down to ''home ground''

 

OTBC 

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We already have something akin to the suggestion - we have Worthy plus two others. I see no reason why this set up shouldn''t deliver providing there is clear leadership - there is - and good coaching - ?.

Remember, Worthy was a novice last year but visibly grew through the season - he will be better for the experience. But I''m not so sure about his advisors - are they up to it - are they influencing the generous loyalty to certain players we''re always debating, alternatively why aren''t they strenuously arguing against it.

Keep Worthy - but question the back room team. 

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Mike Walker??? If I remember rightly, when a few were suggesting we should try and get Chris Sutton back, you Mr Wiz said something like don''t live in the past. May not have been Sutton, but it was a past player. Now you''re suggesting we should have a manager who although had a first spell as manager, he wasn''t exactly a success second time round. Hmm.. not sure it would work to be honest.

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[quote]Mike Walker??? If I remember rightly, when a few were suggesting we should try and get Chris Sutton back, you Mr Wiz said something like don''t live in the past. May not have been Sutton, but it was a ...[/quote]

Rasputin:

To be fair to Mike Walker (blessing be upon his holy name) towards the end of his 2nd spell here, his team started to gel, and showed great promise for the following season.

Guess who sacked him and replaced him with Hamilton and Rioch?, yes that right, ''lets be having you Delia'' and her croonies!.

As you say, hmm?.

 

 

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[quote]Anyone know what Mike Walker''s doing these days? Absolute madness he''s not coaching for us in some sort of capacity...[/quote]

Hmm that''s a good question, I often wonder myself. The last written about him on www.ex-canaries.co.uk is:

"In March 2004, the South Wales Press suggested that Mike had put himself forward to replace Bryan Flynn and Kevin Reeves who had been sacked by Swansea. Andy Melville and Dean Saunders were also suggested as possible replacements. "

Nothing since. By the way 1st Wizard, while it''s now going back a bit, the timing of the boards decision to sack Walker was wrong, like you said the team were getting it together (if a bit too late in that particular season) and if I remember rightly we had just won two games on the spin 5-0!

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1st Wizard - you spend your time slagging off Worthy and now start on "Delia and her cronies".

Anyone you do actually like in the club?  Supporter?   Mmmmmmmm

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You''re better off ignoring whatever 1st Wizard has to say.

Anyway, I seriously cannot understand the ''Worthington out'' crew...as when he took over, we were heading towards Division Two. Within three full seasons, he turned the club in to First Division Champions.

Worthingon had the idea to sign Harper, Crouch and Huckerby...He had the idea to sign Svensson and McKenzie. Worthington is the man who signed Damien Francis and turned him from a player with great potential in to a Premiership standard goal scoring midfielder. Worthington is the man who persuaded Thomas Helveg and Mattias Jonson to sign for us, two very good internationals who will be amazing for us next season. I accept that these players didn''t set the world alight in Norwich City colours last season, but that''s something Worthington has learned, and we''ll become a better club for it.

Let''s also not forget Nigel Worthington was the man who said he wanted Dean Ashton, and managed to persuade him to come here...and we all know he is a Premiership quality striker who can get 20 goals at that level quite easily. All these quality players Worthington has brought to the club, a promotion and play off run nobody expected, so close to staying up at the first attempt, honesty with the fans, talking sense to the media...yet a small minority want him sacked; I can''t understand it.

If it were not due to the terrible injury crisis we had, we WOULD have survived in the Premiership, make no mistake about it...and all you ''Worthington out'' fans would be proclaiming him as a legend no doubt.

Worthington will get a full season at the very least...and we will be promoted.

Norwich City has amazing fans, and deep down you all know that Nigel Worthington has done a fantastic job when you weigh up everything that has happened...and he''ll take us back up, and keep us there...

Keep the faith!

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[quote]You''re better off ignoring whatever 1st Wizard has to say. Anyway, I seriously cannot understand the ''Worthington out'' crew...as when he took over, we were heading towards Division Two. Within three ...[/quote]

This has been a broadcast on the behalf of the brown nosed Worthington Party!. 

Childish, puerile, and as usual, totaly irrelevant!.  

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[quote]1st Wizard - you spend your time slagging off Worthy and now start on "Delia and her cronies". Anyone you do actually like in the club? Supporter? Mmmmmmmm[/quote]

Hucks (God), Ashton (Green, despite my comments) Drury, Helveg, Jonson, Francis, Leon, Charlie, The ball boys, The tea lady, some stewards!, progamme sellers, Gunny (son Of God), Adams (still involved as is Eadie, I believe) et all, are all my City likes, Dicky old chap.

See where I''m going with this?.

Supporter?.....Without a shed of doubt.

Brown Nose?..........I''ll leave that title to be fought over by you and your clone, Campbell!.  

Next please.         

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[quote]You''re better off ignoring whatever 1st Wizard has to say. Anyway, I seriously cannot understand the ''Worthington out'' crew...as when he took over, we were heading towards Division Two. Within three ...[/quote]

1st Wiz: I must be a clone of Campbell as well then because everything he just said there was spot on and some of the stuff you are coming out with is crap.

"Delia and her croonies", give me a break man. Were you a Robert Chase fan then?

If Andy "submarine" Johnson hadn''t have dived for the penalty at Selhurst Park we would be sitting in the Premiership for another season and everyone, yes, everyone would be hailing Nigel Worthington, including YOU!!

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[quote]1st Wiz: I must be a clone of Campbell as well then because everything he just said there was spot on and some of the stuff you are coming out with is crap. "Delia and her croonies", give me a br...[/quote]

IF, IF and yet more IF''S from the brown nosed crew.             

Bring it on Jamie!. 

PS. By the way Jamie, I''m proud to be one of the 1500 brave cold souls, who marched against Chase, down Carrow Road on Boxing day, my son!.

A small ''thank you'' would be nice, matey!.  

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1st Wiz... ''Thankyou''? What for?

I was also proud to be one of those who marched against Chase on Boxing Day, but I was only about 7 or 8 at the time, and I nearly got hit by a horse.

Admit you''re wrong sometimes!!

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[quote]1st Wiz... ''Thankyou''? What for? I was also proud to be one of those who marched against Chase on Boxing Day, but I was only about 7 or 8 at the time, and I nearly got hit by a horse. Admit you''r...[/quote]

"...I was only about 7 or 8 at the time, and I nearly got hit by a horse."

Sorry, but s***w the rest of this dull banter, that''s hilarious!!! Can we concentrate on that and ponder the possibilities had it actually run you over??

Anyway 1st Wiz, you can''t call him "son", he''s my son... get your own human plaything!

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[quote]IF, IF and yet more IF''S from the brown nosed crew. Bring it on Jamie!. PS. By the way Jamie, I''m proud to be one of the 1500 brave cold souls, who marched against Chase, down Carr...[/quote]

Just like an Ipswich fan. Living in the past. Welcome to 2005, Wiz. Mike Walker''s long gone, and - guess what - so is Robert Chase! To say you were one of the 1500 who made that march, who cares? That was years ago, and you chose to do it. We owe you no thank you then or now.

As said, we''ve done this two tier system with Hamilton and Rioch. Worthington - as a Premiership manager - still has the jury out, IMO. As a Championship Manager, other than maybe Iain Dowie, there''s no one better.

Worthington is a man capable of taking us back. I''d like to see him given the chance to do it.

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[quote]1st Wiz... ''Thankyou''? What for? I was also proud to be one of those who marched against Chase on Boxing Day, but I was only about 7 or 8 at the time, and I nearly got hit by a horse. Admit you''r...[/quote]

For helping to get rid of Chase of course!.

Admit I''m wrong sometimes Jamie?............NEVER!.

Seriously, I''m often wrong, mate, so wrong that even I laugh at myself sometimes!.

But hey, I''m pretty thick skinned, although some would say just thick!, but the trouble is, I really don''t care what people think about me.

However, I am a City supporter, and just like you, I am damn proud of the club. But that doesn''t mean I will keep quiet if I believe Worthy is not up to the job, or the fact, that I''ve never trusted a board of directors in my life before.                                                                                   

In my defence, I know that you and others, deep down, on a deep subconsious level, really like my posts, and just like that silly Campbell chappie, you are all afraid to admit it publicly.

And if you would only admit that, we could all get back to normal ASAP.           

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I admit I like your posts deep down but "Delia and her croonies" was a bit too far for me.

I do agree on some of your Worthington comments though. Although I would like to see him stay, I do believe sometimes, in the hour of need, he is tactically inept and can''t make them "big" decisions which can turn a game in our favour. As long as we get that consistency like we did in our Promotion season, I think we''ll be fine.

Also if he isn''t concerened at the thought of Fleming starting in The Championship then there must be something wrong...

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Please can we get away from this slavish devotion to Worthington because he got us promoted.   Need I remind you all he is also the manager in charge when we got relegated too.   Now I am prepared to give him the benefit of doubt and give him a chance to prove that it wasn''t a flash in the pan - and given the quality of our squad vs the rest of the division it bloody better not be...BUT and it''s a very big BUT, I don''t believe that he has the quality and tactical ability to survive as a Premiership manager.   You can''t go blaming our relegation on ifs and buts, the harsh reality was that we were not good enough to survive - we could have done, HAD the squad been used better and sensible tactics employed.  I challenge anyone to dispute that one...
 
Wiz - don''t fall for the wind-up merchants!

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At the moment there is no-one better for the job than Worthy, that is a fact for the following reasons:

1. In his last season at that level he won it by a country mile.

2. LAST season would have taught him some lessons, he will be a better manager for the experience.

3. Most of the squad have recent experience at Championship level, there will be no primadonnas swanning around thinking they are too good for this level. It is a squad that Worthy has assembled so he knows them inside out.

The proof of the pudding will be IF we get promoted how we fare back in the Prem.  If we fail miserably next season then I will doubt the guy, until then he has my full backing.

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[quote]I admit I like your posts deep down but "Delia and her croonies" was a bit too far for me. I do agree on some of your Worthington comments though. Although I would like to see him stay, I do believe ...[/quote]

Fair point Jamie, perhaps my Delia jibe was a tad too blunt, because if I''m honest I really admire the lady, she saved our a**e, when we nearly went under. As a cook, she''s brilliant, and of course she''s City bonkers, like the rest of us.

And that''s me being honest, although, and yes, it is past history, but I didn''t like the way Mike Walker was sacked, it was underhanded in my opinion, and I thought City was above that sort of behaviour!. Although, I must add that I don''t hold Delia solely responsible for that!.

Old habits die hard with me Jamie, that''s why I don''t trust boards and directors I quess.

Still, in time who knows?.

To the other poster: My ''thank you'' quote was irony, you know, not to be taken seriously. A bit like me at times!.

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