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The nasty side of Holt

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JF how you can say its turning against a club legend amazes me. I cant stress enough how we are all grateful for what he has done..but for many many reasons hes not there anymore..

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I''m sorry nutty but I have to agree with chops on this one -

 

"Saying Holt has been off the pace, and should have been sent off in two of his last three appearances, is not "nasty anti-Holt sentiment" in my view, it''s a reasonable and defendable view."

 

The tackle on Saturday was indefensible and would have provoked week long howls of outrage had it have been Joey Barton or any number of other ''baddies''. I can only surmise that the ref decided not to send him off as he had only been on the pitch for a few minutes, and the grief that would have followed would probably best be avoided.

 

 

Sadly Holt has been off form for some while. Watching him stroll around the pitch has been frustrating, The Holt of old would be charging at and challenging every time the ball was with ten yards of him, now it''s as if he isn''t that bothered. What the reason is it''s hard to say, but not too had to speculate at. Saturday was crying out (in the second half) for their to be someone in the box, more so with Holt''s previous presence but we merely had Kamara dropping to deep and no one to hit crosses to.

 

 

ps it is still result (s) nutty rather than outcomes, the BBC hasn''t managed to change it yet


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[quote user="City1st"]

I''m sorry nutty but I have to agree with chops on this one -

 

"Saying Holt has been off the pace, and should have been sent off in two of his last three appearances, is not "nasty anti-Holt sentiment" in my view, it''s a reasonable and defendable view."

 

The tackle on Saturday was indefensible and would have provoked week long howls of outrage had it have been Joey Barton or any number of other ''baddies''. I can only surmise that the ref decided not to send him off as he had only been on the pitch for a few minutes, and the grief that would have followed would probably best be avoided.

 

 

Sadly Holt has been off form for some while. Watching him stroll around the pitch has been frustrating, The Holt of old would be charging at and challenging every time the ball was with ten yards of him, now it''s as if he isn''t that bothered. What the reason is it''s hard to say, but not too had to speculate at. Saturday was crying out (in the second half) for their to be someone in the box, more so with Holt''s previous presence but we merely had Kamara dropping to deep and no one to hit crosses to.

 

 

ps it is still result (s) nutty rather than outcomes, the BBC hasn''t managed to change it yet


[/quote]

 

Eh?

 

I''d start Holt in everyone of our last games. Holt wasn''t sent off for that tackle. Accepting the referees decision is better for our club than wanting him banned. He scored the winner in the last game we won so it''s certainly not the Holt of old. He hasn''t actually been sent off for a long time. Nobody wants to tell me when the last time was. We''ve had these anti Holt threads on here since 2010. His critics pee off when he shuts them up but are soon back when they think they can get away with it.

 

Now what was it you thought I posted?

 

 

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What do you think of his last few games for us then Nutty?  Sunderland?  Wigan?  Swansea?I don''t dispute your point that "Holt wasn''t sent off for that tackle. Accepting the referees decision is better for our club than wanting him banned."  But what did you think of that tackle? Or the one on Mignolet?  It''s easy for you to tell us what you don''t think and what you didn''t say - I''m just trying to get a straight answer as to what you do think.

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" Accepting the referees decision is better for our club than wanting him banned"

 

dearie, dear me

 

It''s unlike you nutty to make things up to reply to, but no one is ''wanting him banned''. Most are perplexed as to why he is almost totally off form and is endukging in these sort of nasty attacks, Remember the challenge on the Sunderland keeper ?

 

Something is badly wromg and your being in denial will not alter the ecognition of that reality from almost everyone else.

 

 

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I think the performances and the tackle were because he was frustrated being on the bench. Not "sulky" frustrated but "because he cares" frustrated. I think the tackle on Saturday was through his eagerness to make an impact and not through some nasty side or nasty intent. I think the referee recognised this. I think the tackle on mignolet was through frustration because he''d taken a heavy touch and lost the ball. This often happens when a player gets a chance shortly after coming on as sub. Again I don''t believe there was any malice in the tackle. I didn''t see the Wigan game so don''t know what you''re getting at Mister.

 

Now why do you think Holt has suddenly discovered a nasty side? What did you think of his goal against Everton? And where do you think we''d be without it?

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I think the performances and the tackle were because he was frustrated being on the bench. Not "sulky" frustrated but "because he cares" frustrated. I think the tackle on Saturday was through his eagerness to make an impact and not through some nasty side or nasty intent. I think the referee recognised this. I think the tackle on mignolet was through frustration because he''d taken a heavy touch and lost the ball. This often happens when a player gets a chance shortly after coming on as sub. Again I don''t believe there was any malice in the tackle. I didn''t see the Wigan game so don''t know what you''re getting at Mister.

 

Now why do you think Holt has suddenly discovered a nasty side? What did you think of his goal against Everton? And where do you think we''d be without it?

 

 

[/quote]I think he''s pissed off about something or more than one thing.  I don''t know why.  If he''s frustrated and angry at being dropped then I would like him to prove he should be first choice.  Has he done everything he can to do this?  I don''t know, but cameos of the sort of his last three appearances won''t help him.  I lost some of my respect for him over his contract stalling and toys/pram incidents in the summer but as written recently, I''m still a huge fan and believe he will be remembered in the same way as Jimmy Bone, Darren Huckerby, and other greats for our club.  Yes the winner against Everton was a godsend as without it we''d be two points worse off.  No City fan in their right mind would want any Norwich City player to fail or for the team to fail.  I''d much rather look like a chimp because Holt scores a brace against Arsenal and another against Reading, but I just can''t see it happening at the moment as he looks off the pace, his touch is heavy and his demeanour is at odds with the rabble-rouser of the last three seasons.  We can all discuss why that might be - contract, Calderwood, Carlisle, friends, family, injury, etc etc etc, but we can all see something''s not right at the moment and that can''t be good news for the club.

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[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I think the performances and the tackle were because he was frustrated being on the bench. Not "sulky" frustrated but "because he cares" frustrated. I think the tackle on Saturday was through his eagerness to make an impact and not through some nasty side or nasty intent. I think the referee recognised this. I think the tackle on mignolet was through frustration because he''d taken a heavy touch and lost the ball. This often happens when a player gets a chance shortly after coming on as sub. Again I don''t believe there was any malice in the tackle. I didn''t see the Wigan game so don''t know what you''re getting at Mister.

 

Now why do you think Holt has suddenly discovered a nasty side? What did you think of his goal against Everton? And where do you think we''d be without it?

 

 

[/quote]

I think he''s pissed off about something or more than one thing.  I don''t know why.  If he''s frustrated and angry at being dropped then I would like him to prove he should be first choice.  Has he done everything he can to do this?  I don''t know, but cameos of the sort of his last three appearances won''t help him. 

I lost some of my respect for him over his contract stalling and toys/pram incidents in the summer but as written recently, I''m still a huge fan and believe he will be remembered in the same way as Jimmy Bone, Darren Huckerby, and other greats for our club.  Yes the winner against Everton was a godsend as without it we''d be two points worse off.  No City fan in their right mind would want any Norwich City player to fail or for the team to fail.  I''d much rather look like a chimp because Holt scores a brace against Arsenal and another against Reading, but I just can''t see it happening at the moment as he looks off the pace, his touch is heavy and his demeanour is at odds with the rabble-rouser of the last three seasons.  We can all discuss why that might be - contract, Calderwood, Carlisle, friends, family, injury, etc etc etc, but we can all see something''s not right at the moment and that can''t be good news for the club.



[/quote]

 

But the nasty side he''s apparently developed? Do you see that?

 

 

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Nutty, the question mark that many are raising over Holt is not over his ability (although I''m sure you''ll agree that in the last couple of months his performances haven''t reached the very high levels he''s set himself), but over his temperament.

I actually count the last 4 games where he could have or should have been sent off. I thought Clattenburg was going to give him a 2nd yellow against Southampton for simulation, was quite surprised when he pointed to the spot. That added to the awful challenges against Swansea and Sunderland, and him almost talking himself into a red at Wigan and Hughton has a very difficult decision to make.

I don''t know if it''s just frustration at being on the bench, the early booking against Southampton aside all the incidents have happened after being brought on in the final stages, but whatever it is if he were to start at The Emirates and do the same again we could be in for a very long afternoon.

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"Nasty" is pejorative.  He''s always had a strong physical competitive streak, that''s one of the reasons we love him, and nobody could reasonably deny he''s good at winning free kicks with minimal contact.  He''s no stranger to playing on the margins and that rogueishness is another reason I love him.  And maybe the recent fouls are because his timing''s off and he''s putting himself about before he''s settled into the game.  It''s possible that the challenges weren''t as bad as we are suggesting, but both Mignolet and Flores *could* (weren''t) have been seriously injured and referees have given red cards for less.  It doesn''t feel like coincidence to happen twice in such quick succession and does make you wonder if there''s more to it than just "robust but mistimed" challenges.So I can see why some people would see it, yes.

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[quote user="JF"]Has to start the remainder of the games for me. [/quote]The thing is can you trust him. In our position there''s I see no mileage in picking any player that has a chip on his shoulder & appears to be intent on being sent off. That does the Club no favours at all. We can''t afford to take the very real risk of playing with 10 men at anytime during any of the remaining games. It''s obvious from the last 4 games, when he has collected 4 yellow cards in a little over 30 minutes after starting or coming on, that it''s not a risk worth taking. One yellow card ok, two in two games not unusual, 3 in 3 games possibly a coincidence, but not 4 in 4. particularly when at least 2 of them could have been straight reds.Which ever you look at it, it is just not acceptable behaviour & especially not for the Club Captain.

[quote user="JF"]Its disgracful how some people can turn against a genuine club

legend. Short memories indeed.[/quote]Whoever they are and whatever they''ve done before, no one player is bigger than the Club and the Club will still be here long after he has gone. It''s not a case of short memories or turning against anyone - it''s just common sense.

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Just for the record - last 4 gamesSouthampton - Holt on from start - booked after 16 minutesSunderland - Holt on as a sub 64 minutes - booked after 8 minutesWigan - Holt on as a sub 80 minutes - booked after 7 minutes. Swansea - Holt on as a sub 80 minutes - booked after 6 minutes.Four bookings in 37 minutes

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This is getting better. Not only has he developed a nast streak but he''s also intent on getting sent off!

 

Next thing you''ll all claim to have the realistic view and anyone who disagrees will be blinded by loyalty to a tired old has been.

 

You couldn''t make it up.

 

BTW - what should McNally do about a player who''s intent on getting sent off?

 

 

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[quote user="Making Plans"]Just for the record - last 4 games

Southampton - Holt on from start - booked after 16 minutes
Sunderland - Holt on as a sub 64 minutes - booked after 8 minutes
Wigan - Holt on as a sub 80 minutes - booked after 7 minutes.
Swansea - Holt on as a sub 80 minutes - booked after 6 minutes.

Four bookings in 37 minutes

[/quote]

 

Just for the record on no occasion was he actually sent off. He must pay the refs...

 

 

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I''m not saying that he''s a has-been or that I want him sold. He still has a huge amount to offer us in the right system. What I''m saying that his recent performances suggest that there is an underlying issue and that whatever this is it needs to be sorted out before he plays again. At present, for me, he is a disciplinary risk that we can''t afford to take.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]This is getting better. Not only has he developed a nast streak but he''s also intent on getting sent off! [/quote]I think you''ll find I said "appears" to be intent on getting sent off. How else do you explain the 4 yellow cards for dangerous and totally uneccesary "tackles" in such a short time frame.It''s hardly the action of someone who is desperately trying to stay on the pitch.Yes he''s always been aggressive in his play but that''s now been taken to another level & the title of this thread says it all - nasty!It''s embarrasing & he is rapidly becomming a joke.

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[quote user="Making Plans"][quote user="nutty nigel"]This is getting better. Not only has he developed a nast streak but he''s also intent on getting sent off! [/quote]
I think you''ll find I said "appears" to be intent on getting sent off.
How else do you explain the 4 yellow cards for dangerous and totally uneccesary "tackles" in such a short time frame.
It''s hardly the action of someone who is desperately trying to stay on the pitch.
Yes he''s always been aggressive in his play but that''s now been taken to another level & the title of this thread says it all - nasty!
It''s embarrasing & he is rapidly becomming a joke.
[/quote]

 

I thought I did explain how I saw it? It seems may as well have not bothered to post.

 

He is now nasty, intent on getting sent off, embarrassing and rapidly becoming a joke. If that was true he''d be nowhere near our first team let alone captain. Or do you think that Hughton and McNally are nasty, intent on having a captain who''s sent off, embarrassing and rapidly becoming a joke.

 

 

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Have been a great fan of Holt and last season was one of the best finishers in the Premiership. Really upset some big central defenders and had a great energetic style of leadership.

It my opinion he has never really started this season. A shadow of his former self. For some unknown reason he rarely now goes for the ball and as regards high balls forward he makes little contact and just makes a token jump. Instead of breaking away he is continually looking for freekicks. Compared with previous seasons he shows little enthusiasm to chase down defenders and is regularly committing fouls. In a physical sense this all adds up to being unfit and well off the pace, and it seems he has lost interest possibly because of his "large contract safety net", and apart from the coaching staff, everyone knows being a lone striker is not his style. I cannot see him making a comeback and will surely leave at the end of the season. I tend to agree that it is now a risk to play him from the start in the remaining crucial matches.

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"What did you think of his goal against Everton? And where do you think we''d be without it?"

 

 

a tap in - and in a slightly better position had he not  ''taken a heavy touch and lost the ball''  against Sunderland and actually scored

 

 

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I''m with Nutty on this.    It seems to me Holt is just trying to fit 90 minutes effort into ten, or twenty, or however long he comes on for.   Just trying too hard.     But then if he sits back and waits or runs into space for the ball, he''ll then be accused for not getting involved, or not trying, or not being fit.   

He scored against Everton to give us three points, he missed a penalty against  Southampton - it happens.    Other than that he hasn''t had that many clear cut chances - even though he has been in good positions to receive the ball - it hardly ever arrives.     When he does get the ball his touch has been missing, but then  you can''t expect a striker to be on top form if he is not being helped/supported by the players around him.   I wouldn''t say he''s off form, I''d say he is in need of a goal.   Goals work wonders for strikers'' confidence.  

He may well score a winning goal again this season,  will we value him then?   I suspect not.   Those that have been jealous all along of how a tyrefitter from up north can be playing for Norwich City will pipe up again.   Ever since he came to Norwich he has carried derogatory labels around his neck.  Easy to laugh off when things are going well, but when things are not going well - that is when you need support.   

At this stage of the season we need all the players to be on top form.  Constant  barracking and knocking our players and management staff is completely and utterly ridiculous in the extreme - this is the important part of the season.    There have been lots of people saying it over the last two days - get behind the players.   Whoever is picked or whoever goes on the pitch from the bench - support them.    Particularly Holt. 

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[quote user="City1st"]

"What did you think of his goal against Everton? And where do you think we''d be without it?"

 

 

a tap in - and in a slightly better position had he not  ''taken a heavy touch and lost the ball''  against Sunderland and actually scored

 

 

[/quote]

 

It''s a fair comparison that he may not have been in position if he''d just come on as sub against Everton.

 

I''ve seen some fantastic performances from Holty this season when he''s been lone striker. Hoolahan doesn''t really work  playing off anyone else. It was the basis for our 10 game unbeaten run. Just because he isn''t scoring all our goals doesn''t mean that he''s nasty, intent on getting sent off, embarrassing, rapidly becoming a joke, a shadow of his former self, unfit, fat, greedy, laying back enjoying his contract or any of the other slurs our supporters throw at him. It just means he''s playing a different position. One he''s quite capable of playing and has played effectively.

 

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[quote user="City1st"]

"What did you think of his goal against Everton? And where do you think we''d be without it?"

 

 

a tap in - and in a slightly better position had he not  ''taken a heavy touch and lost the ball''  against Sunderland and actually scored

 

 

[/quote]

 

What was I saying about Holt getting the blame..... and right on cue up pops the board''s favourite aunty with this corker!

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It seems to me that holt has forgot his tyre fitting roots as apposed to being knocked down because of them imo. Almost as if he thinks he is mr norwich giving it the big ''i am''. Like a previous poster has said, i think alot of fans lost a little respect for him for holding the club out to ''ransom''. I wouldnt be surprised in the slightest if he moves to celtic with hooper coming to us..hes playing like that''s what he wants!..i like anyone wants holt to be back to his old self but just cant see it. Good performance against arsenal please, whatever the team!

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you can be rather dim at times

 

the post was a direct response to a question posed by nutty

 

the goal was a tap in

 

and if you pontificate about a goal scored by a player, it is not ''blame'' to contrast that with a missed goal - more so when that missed goal was raised by nutty himself

 

now stop being silly and wind your neck in

 

 

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Why would Celtic want a player who is nasty, intent on getting sent off, embarrassing, rapidly becoming a joke, a shadow of his former self, unfit, fat, greedy, laying back enjoying his contract or any of the other slurs our supporters throw at him.

 

I magine if it was us linked with such a player?

 

The type of player our fans are describing on here would only really get a club with absolutely no morals like....

 

the binners[:O]

 

 

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I agree that nasty is a little over the top!...although you cant deny he''s made a few very poor tackles recently. I disagree in that personally, he is unfit and put on a little to much timber and doesn''t chase balls like he used to..i think Saturday was a good indication of that. Him not hunting the ball down at all, seeming relatively happy to stand there and point the finger for other players to get it...and yes, he looks like a player to me who seems happy to see out his contract and move on. Sorry but thats what i see. In his defence, i dont think playing 1 up has helped, but thats how hughton has set up and he needs to get on with it and keep working hard!..I would also say that hoolahan needs a kick up the arse to start performing. Would be very tempted to drop him saturday

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Rather than you Aunty 1sty being dim all of the time.

 

I knew the post was in response to Nutty, it was obviously given the fact that you quoted him!

 

The Everton goal was not a tap in.  I suggest you look up the term tap in and come back with that one.

 

I understand your poor attempt at comparison, but the Sunderland missed goal was certainly not that.  Not a missed goal!  It was a chance, but not a missed goal.  Kamara''s against Swansea was much more of a missed goal. 

 

It wasn''t as if Holt had only half of the pitch time against Sunderland as Kamara did was it?  And it wasn''t Holt who got sent off against Sunderland or gave away a penalty was it?  Yet which player is it who is shouldering the vast majority of the balme?  Has it finally dawned on you yet?  No, thought not!

 

Oh well, you can lead a ''horse'' (pardon the pun, I just couldn''t resist) to water..........

 

[I]

 

 

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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Vanwink"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Can we not even consider Holty''s form all season? Or just the last couple of games where he has had to come off the bench. Didn''t he score the winner against Everton?


I hope he starts next game and every game until the end of the season. He is the best we have.

 

 

[/quote] Not after Saturday[/quote]

 

Who''s better then?

 

 

[/quote]

 

I''m with Nutty on this one.  I cannot believe the nasty anti-Holt sentiment at the moment.

 

There is no better striker at the club. 

 

I believe that it''s down to the very fact of how massive a player Holt has been for us over the previous 3 seasons and the fact that he is club captain that he is now unfairly getting shouldered with the vast majority of the blame and criticism which is undeserved imho.

 

As a team we are firing blanks and our strikers are ALL massively misfiring.  Does this not tell you anything???

 

No other striker has scored more goals than Holt this season, and no other striker will score more goals than Holt this season.

 

Play Holt from the start for the final 6 games and we will stay up.

 

Stuff like this about Holt you expect from certain moronic posters, but I have to say I have been taken aback by some of the people spouting this nonsense.  To me it seems like the ''Holt Haters'' have been desperately itching for this, especially since his contract issues, something to attack him with.  Have any of you considered a career in tabloid journalism.

 

One final thing, I trust that if Holt does make an impact over the final 6 games and scores the goals that keep us in this division, that you don''t all of a sudden change your opinion of the fat, lazy, vicious, past it waste of space!  Because that would show you up for exactly what you are and you''d look rather silly (sillier than you do already, should I say)!!!

 

[:@][:@][:@]

[/quote]

 

Yes you can. It''s called the scapegoat bandwagon. It''s up and running yet again. There has to be some player to pull to pieces.

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Holt has always made the odd rash tackle. I wince sometimes when he loses the ball and charges across the pitch in a desperate attempt to get it back. That is the sort of player he is, and that has not changed. There is no way that I buy into the ''deliberately trying to get sent off''. That is just a cheap shot and one that a player of Holt''s stature does not deserve. He should never be made a scapegoat at this club. His contribution over the years has been immense and should not be forgotten. He still has a part to play and I hope that the detractors do not force him out of the club. Pack animal mentally is certainly alive and well on this thread.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Making Plans"]Just for the record - last 4 gamesSouthampton - Holt on from start - booked after 16 minutesSunderland - Holt on as a sub 64 minutes - booked after 8 minutesWigan - Holt on as a sub 80 minutes - booked after 7 minutes. Swansea - Holt on as a sub 80 minutes - booked after 6 minutes.Four bookings in 37 minutes[/quote]

 Just for the record on no occasion was he actually sent off. He must pay the refs...

  [/quote]

C''mon Nutty, if the above stats had involved someone not playing for City you would have been appalled (  in a different era even our own much loved Trevor Hockey couldn''t match that in 37 mins ).

OK he wasn''t sent off but it''s plain to see that he''s treading a very fine line indeed.

He needs to get his head straight that''s all.

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