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hogesar

Oh, Decisions are supposed to even themselves out over a season?

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Well, in which case, look forward to 3 penalties for us in each of our remaining games, 4 sending off''s for the opposition and us being given a couple of goals which were actually offside.

Even itself out my arse.

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[quote user="I am a Banana"]We need to attack to get the penalties.[/quote]Oh, so we''re never in the oppositions penalty area? That''s funny, we were 1-0 up against Arsenal away at the Emirates...There is literally no hope for you.

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I tend to think that decisions do even themselves out but probably over a longer period than just one season. But obviously this is distorted by the fact that big teams tend to get more decisions going their way due to a) referees being pressured into giving more decisionstheir way (either by by a large crowd or just by reputation) and b) the top sides tendency to play more attacking football and thus get into areas where they can benefit from dubious penalty calls more often.

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[quote user="Shack Attack"]I tend to think that decisions do even themselves out but probably over a longer period than just one season. But obviously this is distorted by the fact that big teams tend to get more decisions going their way due to a) referees being pressured into giving more decisionstheir way (either by by a large crowd or just by reputation) and b) the top sides tendency to play more attacking football and thus get into areas where they can benefit from dubious penalty calls more often.[/quote]

One retired referee (possibly Poll) admitted that he and his colleagues always had at the back of their mind what the reaction would be of top -six managers (and particlularly Ferguson) if they got a big decision wrong. Particularly giving a penalty against the big club. From memory Man Utd went ten years from 1993 (after we scored from the spot) with one only home league penalty being awarded against them.So decisons will not even out between a lower team and the elite, but then that is probably true for all lower teams aginst the elite and not just us.one.But within a section of a divison decisions probably do even out. They will even out within the top six, and they will even out within mid-table teams, and within the relegation strugglers. So we get a soft penalty against Southampton but are refused one against Sunderland.

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[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="I am a Banana"]We need to attack to get the penalties.[/quote]

Oh, so we''re never in the oppositions penalty area? That''s funny, we were 1-0 up against Arsenal away at the Emirates...

There is literally no hope for you.
[/quote]

Yeah, but be honest though, how many true goalscoring chances have we created this season compared to last ?  Far less I''d bet !!

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

But within a section of a divison decisions probably do even out. They will even out within the top six, and they will even out within mid-table teams, and within the relegation strugglers. So we get a soft penalty against Southampton but are refused one against Sunderland.

[/quote]And Sunderland are awarded a soft or non penalty, that makes it 2-1 against in just the two matches . Did Bunns sending off affect the Wigan game also, Camp was at least partially to blame for their goal imo. We''ve had three for and 13 against since our return to the prem, it hasn''t evened out over two seasons....

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Is there any evidence of ''decisions evening themselves out?''

No. Why? Because referees do not go into games thinking oh Norwich were hard done by in the last game, i''ll give them a couple of soft decisions. Referees make their decisions regardless of what has happened in previous games. The whole ''decisions even themselves out'' is not based in any fact and is only spouted out to quieten down clubs like Norwich and Bolton when a series of decision go against them.

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[quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

But within a section of a divison decisions probably do even out. They will even out within the top six, and they will even out within mid-table teams, and within the relegation strugglers. So we get a soft penalty against Southampton but are refused one against Sunderland.

[/quote]And Sunderland are awarded a soft or non penalty, that makes it 2-1 against in just the two matches . Did Bunns sending off affect the Wigan game also, Camp was at least partially to blame for their goal imo. We''ve had three for and 13 against since our return to the prem, it hasn''t evened out over two seasons....[/quote]

 

Zak, that is a pretty stark statistic! But what are the figures for the two seasons for Swansea and QPR, the two teams that came up with us? I have no idea, and it may be we have been particularly hard done by. Perhaps referees do to an extent see us as "little Norwich". But in general I think the idea that decisons even out within a section of the league holds good.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

Zak, that is a pretty stark statistic! But what are the figures for the two seasons for Swansea and QPR, the two teams that came up with us? I have no idea, and it may be we have been particularly hard done by. Perhaps referees do to an extent see us as "little Norwich". But in general I think the idea that decisons even out within a section of the league holds good.

[/quote]Swansea: 6 for / 7 againstQPR: 6 for / 4 against

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TIL 1010 Just so you know you silly Banana we have scored three goals in our last two games

We have let in 5 though. Tighter defence? not so sure myself.

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[quote user="Comfort Big Fish Ramatebele"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

Zak, that is a pretty stark statistic! But what are the figures for the two seasons for Swansea and QPR, the two teams that came up with us? I have no idea, and it may be we have been particularly hard done by. Perhaps referees do to an extent see us as "little Norwich". But in general I think the idea that decisons even out within a section of the league holds good.

[/quote]Swansea: 6 for / 7 againstQPR: 6 for / 4 against[/quote]

 

 

Thanks. Quite a contrast there with our figures, although it may be that the majority of those penalties for Swansea and QPR were against similarly small or medium-sized teams. But perhaps we are particularly hard done by. Looking back yesterday at last season''s DVD we were denied two obvious penalties in north London. Firstly when Holt, clean through against Spurs, was dragged to the ground. There was no 50-50 about that. And against Arsenal Russell Martin was pulled down at a set piece when he had stolen a march on his marker.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]I tend to think that decisions do even themselves out but probably over a longer period than just one season. But obviously this is distorted by the fact that big teams tend to get more decisions going their way due to a) referees being pressured into giving more decisionstheir way (either by by a large crowd or just by reputation) and b) the top sides tendency to play more attacking football and thus get into areas where they can benefit from dubious penalty calls more often.
[/quote]



One retired referee (possibly Poll) admitted that he and his colleagues always had at the back of their mind what the reaction would be of top -six managers (and particlularly Ferguson) if they got a big decision wrong. Particularly giving a penalty against the big club. From memory Man Utd went ten years from 1993 (after we scored from the spot) with one only home league penalty being awarded against them.

So decisons will not even out between a lower team and the elite, but then that is probably true for all lower teams aginst the elite and not just us.one.

But within a section of a divison decisions probably do even out. They will even out within the top six, and they will even out within mid-table teams, and within the relegation strugglers. So we get a soft penalty against Southampton but are refused one against Sunderland.

[/quote]

Complete fallacy and no evidence to support it. You probably have digested too much of the sh*** regularly totted out by Match of the Day pundits. It is one of the things they love to say.

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[quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]I tend to think that decisions do even themselves out but probably over a longer period than just one season. But obviously this is distorted by the fact that big teams tend to get more decisions going their way due to a) referees being pressured into giving more decisionstheir way (either by by a large crowd or just by reputation) and b) the top sides tendency to play more attacking football and thus get into areas where they can benefit from dubious penalty calls more often.[/quote]

One retired referee (possibly Poll) admitted that he and his colleagues always had at the back of their mind what the reaction would be of top -six managers (and particlularly Ferguson) if they got a big decision wrong. Particularly giving a penalty against the big club. From memory Man Utd went ten years from 1993 (after we scored from the spot) with one only home league penalty being awarded against them.So decisons will not even out between a lower team and the elite, but then that is probably true for all lower teams aginst the elite and not just us.one.But within a section of a divison decisions probably do even out. They will even out within the top six, and they will even out within mid-table teams, and within the relegation strugglers. So we get a soft penalty against Southampton but are refused one against Sunderland.

[/quote]

Complete fallacy and no evidence to support it. You probably have digested too much of the sh*** regularly totted out by Match of the Day pundits. It is one of the things they love to say.

[/quote]

 

Is that what they say on MotD? I have no idea because I never watch the programe, but I thought their mantra was the more general one about decisons evening out rather than what I am suggesting, which is that they even out within a section of a division, ie evening out for the top clubs against each other and for the bottom clubs against each other. You say it is a fallacy, so do you evidence that it is not the case?

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There is no doubt that the big 4/6 get favourable decisions through the course of a season. It is often quite humorous talking to the supporters of the big teams when a decision goes against them when they play a team from their level and to hear their managers bleat on about the injustice. My reply is always: ''This is what happens to us when we play you, now you know how we feel all of the time!''

However, I do think that the rest of the league probably do get even treatment against each other.

If you look carefully at the pictures on this site of Saturdays game a lawyer could easily come to the following conclusions:

There is evidence to suggest that a penalty could be granted although the nearest prosecutor (ref 1) did not think so and only ref 2 (lino) did.

There is evidence to suggest that the second goal should have been disallowed for exactly the same offence. The second furthest prosecutor (lino 1) was unable to be sure on this occasion to prosecute (presumably the third official was even further from the scene). Please note that the main prosecutor gave the same decision on both occasions, namely ''nothing to worry about here''.

There is clear evidence that Whittaker is fouled, Walcott is a metre offside in the build up to the third goal. There is no defence for either offence IMO.

All things being equal, the game should have finished a draw, either with no penalty being given or the second and third goals being disallowed.

However all sports fans know that if the penalty had not been given it was more than likely that the best that Arsenal would have got from the game was a draw and probably would have lost as it appeared that they were running out of ideas. This could not be proven in a court of law.

What do you think jury?

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My theory about why we don''t get the same sort of decisions going for us as against us is one based around the preconceptions and reputations of players in the officials minds.Obviously officials are not perfect, and football happens so fast that there are occasions where they have to essentially guess at what the correct decision is, and I believe they, perhaps not consciously, factor in who the players are.Take Walcott''s offside for example, the lino clearly had no idea where Walcott was when the ball was flicked on, only that as he received the ball he was now in a position that would have been offside. He then has to make a decision about whether or not its likely that Walcott was actually offside, I can''t imagine that the thought of "this is Theo Walcott, he cost 15m quid and gets paid 100k a week from one of the biggest clubs in the land, he''s also pretty damn quick" doesn''t go through his mind, leading to the decision that yes, he probably did time his run correctly. While if the same thing happened up the other end with hairy arsed lower league chancer little Rabby Snodgrass, he''d probably be more willing to assume that the player was offside.Similarly with shirt pulling and wrestling in the area, something that happens literally all the time, and yet it seems like we are the only team that ever gets punished for. You see Kompany basically trying to rip Torres'' shirt off yesterday but of course he doesn''t get punished as he''s Vincent Kompany, well spoken cultured continental type, he would never even need to resort to such tricks, not like MLS reject Kei Kamara and lower league defender Ryan Bennett.Basically I think officials fill in the gaps of their incomplete picture of what just happened with the reputations of the player''s involved, and because we''re a team mainly full of players from the lower leagues, its unsurprising that we don''t get the benefit of the doubt.

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