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ron obvious

The Penalty: this looks about right to me

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http://soccerrefereeusa.com/index.php/entry/71-arsenal-defeats-norwich-after-assistant-referee-awards-it-crucial-penalty

I think the point is that the linesman may have seen KK fouling, but was in no position to see what had gone on beforehand. The ref was perfectly positioned to see the whole incident however.

Whether corrupt or not, there can be little doubt that the linesman was not impartial.

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Cheers Ron. Interesting stuff. Will anything get done? Will it heck as like. Days on end we heard about Manures CL sending off exit and how unfair it was. Nary a mention about us today. C''est la vie.

Also add that Irvine Welsh thought we were shafted as well. Always liked him.

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[quote user="ron obvious"]http://soccerrefereeusa.com/index.php/entry/71-arsenal-defeats-norwich-after-assistant-referee-awards-it-crucial-penalty I think the point is that the linesman may have seen KK fouling, but was in no position to see what had gone on beforehand. The ref was perfectly positioned to see the whole incident however. Whether corrupt or not, there can be little doubt that the linesman was not impartial.[/quote]

 

Well spotted, in particular, this section sums up CH''s "almost criminal" comment:

 

According to Law 6 of the Laws of the Game, subject to the decision of the referee, assistant referees duties include, among others, to indicate “when misconduct or any other incident occurs out of the view of the referee” and “when offenses have been committed whenever the assistant referees have a better view than the referee (this includes, in certain circumstances, offenses committed in the penalty area). (Emphasis added.)

 

In addition, IFAB interpretations state that “the assistant referee must raise his flag when a foul or misconduct is committed in his immediate vicinity or out of the referee’s vision. In all other situations, he must wait and offer his opinion if it is required. If this is the case, the assistant referee must report what he has seen and heard and which players are involved to the referee.” 

 

Furthermore, “before signaling for an offence, the assistant referee must determine that:

  • the offence was out of the view of the referee or the referee’s view was obstructed

  • the referee would not have applied the advantage if he had seen the offence”

(Emphasis added.)

 

The USSF Advice to Referees on the Laws of the Game, section 6.3 titled No Signal for Fouls Observed by the Referee, also stated that:

 

Assistant referees should not signal at all for fouls or misconduct that clearly occur in the sight of the referee, that are doubtful or trifling, or for which the referee would likely have applied advantage. Assistant referees may, however, bring such events to the attention of the referee at a stoppage of play.

 

As the Laws of the Game and the above-referenced interpretations clearly provide, assistant referees are allowed to indicate fouls inside penalty areas only when fouls are committed in their immediate vicinity or out of the referee’s vision.  Here, Mr. Jones was, quite literally, staring at the entire tussle between Kemara and Giroud from merely 10 yards away and determined that no foul was committed.  Mr. Jones’ view was unobstructed and under no circumstances could Mr. West believe that the incident occurred out of the view of the referee Jones. Importantly too, the foul was not committed in Mr. West’s immediate vicinity and he did not have a better view than the referee.  Simply put, under current interpretations of the Laws of the Game, Mr. West had no authority to signal for penalty here.

 

BTW - Do these rules apply to the FA?

 

Also, according to referee interpretations, do they apply equally to the big (and loudest?) 4 teams as to the rest of the PL?

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"Webbo118"I think it''s called "brown envelope protection"

The lesser of two evils is sheer incompetence. It doesn''t look good either way.

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When I saw it on MOTD the picture was from the ref''s angle. Giroud is also pulling Kamara''s shirt which is why I think the ref didn''t give the penalty. The reason I reckon the lino gave it was because he can probably only see Kamara.

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What I don''t get is why, given the circumstances re: positioning, the ref let himself be overruled. It is really rather astonishingly poor officiating, but no doubt he''ll just carry on.

We really have been on the crappy end of things ths season, and last, in particular with Clattenburg''s self-confessed mistake v Wet Spam, and now this - I fully expect a half-arsed apology to be made on the quiet, in a few weeks - sadly far too late.

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As much as its annoying I work in London with loads of gooners who were happy to brag today which after the match at Carrow road I deserved.

Argued as I tried we probably didn''t deserve the free kick that Turner put away.

We shall move on and a Reading home win is what we need don''t you think?

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[quote user="Herman "]"Webbo118"I think it''s called "brown envelope protection" The lesser of two evils is sheer incompetence. It doesn''t look good either way.[/quote]

I have seen sheer incompetence on many, many occasions. This was something else.

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What annoys me is the lino''s blatant bias - first the award of the corner which was really a goal kick, as far as anyone else could see, that led to the penalty then later failing to flag for offside which led to a goal.   It''s just too damn blatant and the really annoying thing is there doesn''t seem to be anything anyone can do about it/

 

Having given Arsenal a corner which they failed to convert into a goal he then waves for a penalty that not one Arsenal player even appeals for such was his desperation for them to get a goal

 

Grrrrrrrrrrrr!

 

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A lot goes on sub-consciously at the pressurised atmosphere that is premiership football.   The lino may or may have not been thinking straight, but  the least you can say is that he was determined to make a point about something.    Someone else mentioned Snodgrass''s reaction to him at the corner decision.   Refs and linesmen would find decisions much easier to take if they weren''t hounded at every decision they make.   Surrounded by players, verbally abused - and it goes on all the game, every game.    Decisions are not changed by any of this, all it does is make the officials'' job harder. 

Not defending the lino at all  - but sometimes your sub-conscious dictates things that you do on the spur of the moment.   A deep down bias maybe, or maybe more likely, a reaction to some of the abuse you have been receiving during a match.    It happens, it shouldn''t, but it does.

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xymox said -

"As much as its annoying I work in London with loads of gooners who were happy to brag today which after the match at Carrow road I deserved.

Argued as I tried we probably didn''t deserve the free kick that Turner put away.

We shall move on and a Reading home win is what we need don''t you think? "

Did your gooner mates make you write this as well? Man up FGS, they got the win courtesy of incompetent officials. Go tell them that..... if you dare?

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As for Snoddy giving the lino a hard time after he got the corner decision wrong.  If that led to officials being biased against teams, Man U would be stuffed.

 

And the poster who works in London with bragging gooners - were the bragging about how much they''d paid the lino ?

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Right, having obsessively replayed the KK free kick & the corner preceding the first Arsenal goal I can positively state the following:

Kamara was clipped. Gibbs tries to run across his trailing leg as he heads back into the penalty area, said trailing foot then knocks against the other & he goes over.

The corner was wrong on two counts.Firstly, as Snodgrass is being shoved as he shepherds the ball out. Secondly, as he buckles a foot comes round from behind him & kicks the ball over the line Snodgrass had not touched it previously, & it would have been physically impossible for him to have his right hip up in the air when his left leg had buckled.

What seems to happen against teams like Arsenal is that, while we may get a few minor decisions in our favour, the ones that really matter always go for the opposition. You have to ask yourself: if a similar incident had occurred at the other end of the pitch, is there any possibility that we would have got a penalty? we all know the answer.

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Just as a side point, Howard Webb has been demoted to refereeing Shrewsbury vs Colchester this weekend after ''having a mare'' in the Sunderland vs Newcastle game.

But you don''t see this for many other refs who have a mare. So what''s different about Howard Webb? Is it because it was televised? Or Pards kicking up a fuss?

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I have been thinking about this, and have a solution.Leeds fans delude themselves into thinking they were rightful champions of Europe, and only thwarted by dodgy officials.So all we need to do is ignore the goals that shouldn''t have happened and from now on we shall refer to the game as one that we won 1-nil.Yay[:)]

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BHwViUoCQAAPLSF.jpglarge.jpgI think this image shows how wrong the assistant was to give the penalty and also the referee not to over rule him as having just as good if not better view. To me ( as a local league referee) as soon as both players start pulling shirts difficult to rule especially for a penalty.The unlucky part for us is that the Arsenal player pulled the shirt on the blind side of the assistant where as KK pull was in clear view of assistant.As many of my fellow referees have pointed out how on earth did the referee let an assistant with a distant  partial view overrule him from a much closer better position.Any Gunner fan or neutral pundit who thinks it was a penalty should be shown this picture and if I were the Norwich manager I would send this picture to the officials concerned!

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I also realise why shirt pulling is such a hard one for a referee, if an attacker does it worst that will happen is free kick against him, whereas if defender does it could be penalty. The trouble is if an attacker get hold of your shirt to stop you what is your natural reaction, if I let him do it and ref does not spot it could be goal, so grab back! And as the Arsenal player demonstrated and in the recent Man City Chelsea match if you are cunning can hide from officials

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[quote user="CJ"]BHwViUoCQAAPLSF.jpglarge.jpgI think this image shows how wrong the assistant was to give the penalty and also the referee not to over rule him as having just as good if not better view. To me ( as a local league referee) as soon as both players start pulling shirts difficult to rule especially for a penalty.The unlucky part for us is that the Arsenal player pulled the shirt on the blind side of the assistant where as KK pull was in clear view of assistant.As many of my fellow referees have pointed out how on earth did the referee let an assistant with a distant  partial view overrule him from a much closer better position.Any Gunner fan or neutral pundit who thinks it was a penalty should be shown this picture and if I were the Norwich manager I would send this picture to the officials concerned![/quote]

A very good point CJ - how could the ref let the lino overrule him when the ref was best placed to see the incident is so infuriating.

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I totally agree with you CJ + ICF. The ref doesn''t give it because they are both shirt pulling. The lino gives it because he can only see Kamara. When the ref had the better view it drives me up the wall that he accepts the lino''s desicion

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Think part of the problem is , its difficult for a Ref to overrule (he should do but...) when a lino indicates a flag across the chest for a Pen. Cant remember was the the action of the lino ?

Far better a Lino just waves his flag to draw attention and offer an opinion so the Ref can then make a judgement call offer an opinion.

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