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Indy

Is it about time for a three challenge rule? Allowing managers to challenge such poor penalty awards?

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Conspiracy theory………

 

SKY need something to keep people interested in the last 6 weeks of this season……

 

Man U have won the league, City are second and the London clubs are in a scrap for the 2 Champions league spaces.

 

Did the linesman really give a corner which wasn’t, leading to a penalty which wasn’t and a clear offside for the third goal to kill the game which wasn’t given.

 

So the lino could see a tug of the shirt (IMO both players had hold of each other and the Arsenal player did not have control of the ball, so not a scoring chance) from 50 yards yet he could see that no City player touched the ball leading to the corner from which the penalty was awarded and even after that the offside was right under his nose.

 

Sorry but clearly guidelines set to ensure the small teams are made to sweat and the big teams protected or a guy who should not be allowed anywhere near a football pitch again.

 

What should happen next, well surely a complaint by City to ensure this Linesman gets further training in the rules of the game and suspended from future matches.

 

Funny how this game worth millions is effected by such individuals. Surely a three review process must be looked at by the authorities so that managers can challenge such penalty awards and clear offside. The game is worth far too much to let these little people influence the game at this level.

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Whilst I see what you''re saying, what happens next then?Replay the game? Stop the game whilst the manager discusses it with the ref?

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Well morty, it works well in cricket for years in American football and it''s also used in Rugby to confirm the correct choices.

 

The manager should be given three challenges during the game to challenge the ref.

 

It would not take up much more time and would be a fair process to review the bad refereeing.

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[quote user="Indy"]

Well morty, it works well in cricket for years in American football and it''s also used in Rugby to confirm the correct choices.

 

The manager should be given three challenges during the game to challenge the ref.

 

It would not take up much more time and would be a fair process to review the bad refereeing.

[/quote]Again, I''m seeing what you''re saying, but I''m not entirely convinced.Yeah, it has worked well in rugby, and having the ref use a mike has also.But if its an obvious answer, why hasn''t it been implemented yet?

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[quote user="Ches right hand man "]Because football doesn''t have natural pauses. [/quote]You may have hit the nail on the head there actually.

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[quote user="Ches right hand man "]Because football doesn''t have natural pauses.
[/quote]

Exactly - impossible to compare football to cricket or American football and to a lesser extent rugby. All are incredibily disjointed games with a pause every minute or so; football flows (which is why many love it).

 

When would the manager call the challenge? When would it be reviewed? Who reviews it? Some decisions need viewing from several different angles and how many times have we seen the situation when even after seeing it 50 times from every imaginable angle a consensus still cannot be agreed.

 

Also, might this not favour the richer teams who can afford to have cameras everywhere, watching everything? What happens in the FA Cup when Man U play Bury and they can only afford one camera man (and that is some guy on his iPhone)?

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[quote user="Ches right hand man "]Because football doesn''t have natural pauses. [/quote]^^ This.As much as it sucked being on the receiving end of refereeing incompetence on Saturday, I''d hate any sort of challenge system / video review system in football. It works well in Cricket, tennis & American Football because it can integrate into the game without really affecting the flow of it. This would not be the case in football.

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So your telling me that between the penalty award and the taking of that penalty there was not an natural break in play? It was about three minutes where the fourth official could have looked at the monitor and clearly turned over the penalty award.

 

Football has natural breaks all through it, they only actually play about 65 minutes of the 90, the reast is made up of breaks!

 

I must be watching a different game to you guys.

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[quote user="Ches right hand man "]Because football doesn''t have natural pauses. [/quote]There was a pause between the ball going out of play and the corner kick being taken.There was a lengthy pause between the award of the penalty and the taking of the kick.There was a pause between the award of the free kick for handball in the area against Sunderland.There was a pause between Barnett bringing the Stoke player down 3 yards outside the box and the penalty being taken.There was plenty of time between the foul on our player and the Walcott offside for a review request to be made before the ball was in the net. Fact is if play is stopped for any type of foul there will be a pause, the more controversial or incorrect the refs decision the more lengthy this pause seems to be.Poor reffing has cost us approx 10 points this season, at £800k per place that''s a lot of money, same goes for last year we had some shocking decisions against us which ultimately cost us millions of pounds.

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[quote user="Indy"]

So your telling me that between the penalty award and the taking of that penalty there was not an natural break in play? It was about three minutes where the fourth official could have looked at the monitor and clearly turned over the penalty award.

Football has natural breaks all through it, they only actually play about 65 minutes of the 90, the reast is made up of breaks!

I must be watching a different game to you guys.

[/quote]But that is if a penalty is awarded. What about if the contentious decision is the other way? i.e. A penalty not given, but an opposing manager thinks there should be. There is no 3 minuite break in play for this scenario. Or an offside not given. Or a free kick not given.What then? Do we wait until the ball goes out for a throw in for a natural break to review a decision?

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[quote user="Indy"]

Conspiracy theory………

 

SKY need something to keep people interested in the last 6 weeks of this season……

 

Man U have won the league, City are second and the London clubs are in a scrap for the 2 Champions league spaces.

 

Did the linesman really give a corner which wasn’t, leading to a penalty which wasn’t and a clear offside for the third goal to kill the game which wasn’t given.

 

So the lino could see a tug of the shirt (IMO both players had hold of each other and the Arsenal player did not have control of the ball, so not a scoring chance) from 50 yards yet he could see that no City player touched the ball leading to the corner from which the penalty was awarded and even after that the offside was right under his nose.

 

Sorry but clearly guidelines set to ensure the small teams are made to sweat and the big teams protected or a guy who should not be allowed anywhere near a football pitch again.

 

What should happen next, well surely a complaint by City to ensure this Linesman gets further training in the rules of the game and suspended from future matches.

 

Funny how this game worth millions is effected by such individuals. Surely a three review process must be looked at by the authorities so that managers can challenge such penalty awards and clear offside. The game is worth far too much to let these little people influence the game at this level.

[/quote]

All the training in the world won''t make a scrap of difference if you are fundamentally bent.

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On the whole ''football has no natural pauses'' debate; why can''t we look to Rugby as a role model

takes no longer than 30 seconds to look at a television replay

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Because they want to keep living in a secret, corrupt game where linesmen take great care to cover their mouths so no-one can see what they are saying. The cretin West is the perfect example of all that is wrong with today''s officials. He has the perfect accomplice in Jones, a week as water referee whose only interest is protecting his marks by keeping on the right side of high-profile managers like Wenger. Just ask WBA for their opinion of him and his bent sidekick.

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[quote user="AJ"]On the whole ''football has no natural pauses'' debate; why can''t we look to Rugby as a role model takes no longer than 30 seconds to look at a television replay[/quote]

Doesn''t matter how long it takes to review a decision - the issue is a football game can quite easily go 4 - 5 mins without the ball going out of play. When is the decision reviewed? And do you pull the game back 5 mins if the incorrect decision was made? What happens if after a challenge to a decision is made there isn''t another break until full time? Do you start keep the players on the pitch and start again from when the offence happened?

 

Stoppages in rugby come every 30 seconds or so - and the clock is stopped when the ball isn''t in play; completely different from football.

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Let''s break this down to where a challenge should and could be made.

 

Offside, after a goal is scored, as per no ball in cricket and offside in Rugby a standard quick review by the officials.

 

Penalty award, review after.

 

Red card or serious fould play (as per Ageuro this weekend cup seni, disguasting little ****).

 

If a penalty is not awarded or goal dissalowed for offside then there should be a challenge allwoed by the Manager! just the three per game. It would not take up much time nor would it be every two minutes because it would be upto the manager to use them wisely.

 

I just don''t buy into this Even it''self out over the season, it doens''t matter over the seaosn but does matter over each game and points lost causing relegations and the loss of 45 million pounds on a p**s poor or biase ref!

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[quote user="AJ"]On the whole ''football has no natural pauses'' debate; why can''t we look to Rugby as a role model

takes no longer than 30 seconds to look at a television replay[/quote]But you''re missing a whole piece of the story here.Video review is only used in Rugby for if a try has been scored or not. It has been very successful for this, as there is a natural stop in play at this time.Video review is not used in rugby for penalties and decisions any other time in play. If this were the case, you would find it wouldn''t be as well received in that game.Is there a natural break in play when a goal may or may not have been scored in football? The answer is not always, no.I''d also argue the "it takes no more than 30 seconds to review a decision" in football. How many replays do Goals on Sunday take at incidents, only to have the panel split on the decision?

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Not only are we penalised well above the league average it strangely seems the case that most of our penalties are awarded to teams of a similar stature to ourselves, a penalty in a  defeat to  Chelsea makes much less difference at the business end of the year than a penalty awarded in a match against the QPR''s, Wigans, Stokes West Broms etc of the league. 2011/2
13-Aug-11 away Wigan 1-1 21'' Watson, Ben (jul85)
21-Aug-11 home Stoke City 1-1 65'' Walters Miss
27-Aug-11 away Chelsea 3-1 82'' Lampard
11-Sep-11 home West Brom 0-1 76'' Odemwingie Miss
17-Sep-11 away Bolton 1-2 64'' Petrov, M
29-Oct-11 home Blackburn 3-3 94'' Holt
14-Jan-12 away West Brom 1-2 68'' Long
11-Feb-12 away Swansea C 2-3 87'' Graham
24-Mar-12 home Wolves 2-1 45'' Holt
2012/3
18-Aug-12 away Fulham 5-0 87'' Sidwell
25-Aug-12 home QPR 1-1 19'' Cissé, D Miss
01-Jan-13 away West Ham 2-1 3'' Noble, M
02-Feb-13 away QPR 0-0 56'' Taarabt Miss
09-Mar-13 home Southmptn 0-0 93'' Holt Miss
17-Mar-13 away Sunderland 1-1 40'' Gardner, C
13-Apr-13 away Arsenal 3-1 85'' Arteta
FWIW this years penalty net gain top two are Chelsea 9 for 1 against and Man Utd 5 for none against. No surprises there then.....

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Absolute Rubbish, The 3 challenge system would work perfectly well in a game of football. There are plenty of pauses and most major incidents take approx 3-4 mins to sort out while players Push/Shove/Fake injury etc... and most surround a referee!! There is one simple reason that it will not be implemented and that is " The big clubs like it just the way it is" They 100% know that they get 80%+ of decisions in their favour and thus will never allow such a system. The FA, Prem League, UEFA and FIFA are all absolute corrupt and pathetic organisations ran by weak muppets. As such the game continues to get more and more toxic in order to gain money from around the world at the expense of the fans. I believe this will continue until the larger (Money) clubs create their own European super league , maybe then we can see some competitive sport rather than scripted plays under the control of Big club managers and corrupt officials!

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I''m very much in the "it just wouldn''t work in football" camp with this one.We can all talk about over-rules, situations were a penalty is given but there was no foul for example, but in football there is no way you could possibly implement a system where a foul isn''t spotted by an official and a challenge is required.  Take the following example...City are drawing 1-1 in the 89th minute against Man City on the final day of the season needing a point and still have an appeal remaining.  Lescott cleanly wins the ball from Holt who falls over and suddenly Man City are on the attack 4 vs 2.  At this point Norwich appeal the decision, the game gets stopped and the incident reviewed.  Man City will restart the game with a freekick where Holty claimed the foul and we''ve suddenly got 11 men behind the ball.Imagine the alternative situation of playing on until the ball is next out of play; we could all be celebrating a Norwich goal, only for 30 seconds later play to be pulled back for a penalty to the opposition.I''m all for TV being used for retrospective punishment (especially against diving etc.), but it has no place during the 90 minutes.  Goal line technology is black and white, it''s either in or not, but for other decisions it has to be down to the referee and officials as much as we hate it when decisions go against us.What I''d like to see is the match officials report made public after each match so the fans can fully understand the rationale behind the decisions.  I''d love for the referees mics to be open, but with the language on the football pitch that will never happen (can you imagine Wayne Rooney calling the referee Sir like in rugby?)!

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Originally I thought the same as many that there are not enough natural pauses for an appeal to work.

The answer is quite simple. Appeals should be allowed when a decision has been made. As a decision is made the game stops, then an appeal can be considered.

Appeals would not, however, be allowed if a decision is not made, i.e. possible penalty, possible foul, possible handball etc.

This would not be ideal but it would, nevertheless, clarify and correct many incorrect decisions that are made.

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People and their it wont work scenarios! It would and it would add to the game. Big Clubs dont want it!! Simples.Hawk eye is a step in the right direction but a fraction of what is required. Would Hawk eye have changed arsenal saturday!! NO

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[quote user="Matt Juler"]
What I''d like to see is the match officials report made public after each match so the fans can fully understand the rationale behind the decisions.  I''d love for the referees mics to be open, but with the language on the football pitch that will never happen (can you imagine Wayne Rooney calling the referee Sir like in rugby?)!
[/quote]

Danny Baker has a brilliant story regarding miked up refs, I can''t remember the exact details but in a game lower league game on TV a ref suddenly sent off one of the teams'' star player for no obvious reason. The ref then walked up to the edge of the pitch and a microphone and said ''you may wonder why I just sent him off, it''s beacuse he called me a c*nt, my mum a c*nt and my wife a c*nt''.

 

I think this shows what the viewer would be subjected to for 90 mins.

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[quote user="Yellow Wall"]Originally I thought the same as many that there are not enough natural pauses for an appeal to work.

The answer is quite simple. Appeals should be allowed when a decision has been made. As a decision is made the game stops, then an appeal can be considered.

Appeals would not, however, be allowed if a decision is not made, i.e. possible penalty, possible foul, possible handball etc.

This would not be ideal but it would, nevertheless, clarify and correct many incorrect decisions that are made.[/quote]So, we''re saying a decision given wrongly is more important in the game than if a decision is wrongly not given?Sorry. Can''t agree with that.

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Because football doesn''t have natural pauses.

Eh ! The idea is good and not difficult to impliment, If you only allowed challenged for an offside or foul that resulted in a goal and a pen (before it was taken) thats seems a natural break to me.

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[quote user="Long drives home"]People and their it wont work scenarios! It would and it would add to the game. Big Clubs dont want it!! Simples.

Hawk eye is a step in the right direction but a fraction of what is required. Would Hawk eye have changed arsenal saturday!! NO
[/quote]

Surely until there is an answer to these senarios it obviously wouldn''t work.

 

As someone said how enraged would you be if a perfectly fine Norwich goal was ruled out to take play back potentially a couple of minutes for the other team to be awarded a freekick or a penalty?

 

Do you then turn back the clocks to add on that extra time also?

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If you look at the contentious decisions on Saturday and see whether a "right to challenge" would have made any difference.

The corner leading up to the pen. Probably would have been reversed and us awarded a goal kick. Is a factual issue that probably could be determined by a fourth or fifth official.

The penalty. hard to say. Even having viewed it many times it is hard to find a consensus over whether it should be a pen. Kamara commits a foul in pulling his shirt but then is also being fouled by Giroud. In that scenario what does a video ref do? its in the category of technically a foul but 6 of one, half a dozen of the other and its the type of challenge you see 20 times a game without being penalised. Would he have reversed the decision or upheld it on the basis that (as in cricket) it wasn''t 100% obviously wrong?

Could we have appealed the 2nd goal on the basis that Giroud pulls Bassong by his shirt into the path of the ball resulting in the own goal?

Offside for the third goal would have been ruled out if we''d appealed as again a matter of fact rather than judgment.

So it probably would have prevented 2 of the goals at least and on balance would therefore have led to a fairer outcome. I have to say i''m not sure though about an "appeal" system by the manager. perhaps a better option would be for the 4th official on the touchline to have access to all of this technology and be able to refer decisions such as the corner to them if the captain requests it.

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There are some decisions that will remain controversal no matter if play is stopped to review it or not and I think most non-city fans thought it was a harsh penalty given against us on saturday, a ''harsh penalty'' not a ''wrong penalty''. Technology may reduce the number of bad calls made by the ref but wont eliminate them and is that enough insentive to go down the road of American Football/Cricket who''s games go on for hours anyway?

 

One change I would support however is the introduction of technology for offsides and do away with linesman. There is absolutely no need to have linesmen now. A camera and computer can tell if a player is offside immediately, 100% accuratly, 100% of the time. Some of you will be driving around in cars that make 500 decisions every SECOND so if you think that this change would slow the game down I urge you to stop living in 1955 and join us in 2013.

 

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[quote user="Indy"]If a penalty is not awarded or goal dissalowed for offside then there should be a challenge allwoed by the Manager! just the three per game. It would not take up much time nor would it be every two minutes because it would be upto the manager to use them wisely.[/quote]Seriously? Imagine this scenario...City are under pressure, all the players are in our half, the ball is booted forward and collected by Kei Kamara who charges forward and is one-on-one with the keeper. Kei rounds the keeper and just as he''s about to release his shot, the opposing manager appeals for offside. The appeal is dismissed so City are awarded a free kick with all the opposing eleven players behind the ball...after the police have quelled the riot?

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I said this on another thread about a 3 review system. For cases like the corner on Saturday use there is a natural break in play so its easy to do without much fuss. Where you have a decision not given, its then something the 4th official can review as play goes on and then brought back as necessary.

I just think there''s so much at stake nowadays for there not to be something like this to help out. I''d prefer that the integrity of the game be maintained rather than ensuring the game flowed (I can''t imagine it interrupting the game too many times) or the argument that I really hate - having something to debate in the pub after the game.

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