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Jonny Howson...

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[quote user="KeelansGlove"]

Can someone please explain it to me. I may be a little simple.

Howson doesn''t tackle , doesn''t shoot , doesn''t drop a Fox or Wes type ball creating a goal scoring opportunity yet some on here still praise his contribution. I am seriously underwhelmed and thankfully would suggest the lions share of our budget for next season will be spent on a player who can hopefully do all of these things. Celebration of 5 yard runs and passes in the centre circle baffle me.

Johnson and Tettey for me every time for the rest of the season injuries permitting. Leave the attacking to players that know what they are doing.  

[/quote]

You could argue that Micheal Carrick doesn''t do those things either but is up for player of the season.

 

What Howson does well is maintain possession and link defence to attack. Just as important as the cross that leads to a goal is the pass to the player that provides the cross (this is why I pay very little attention to assist stats). Johnson and Tetty are both good at their roles, but both are a little limited in actual football senses, they break up play and press excellently - which of course is a vital job - but they aren''t brilliant at moving the play on. Tettey gives possession away a little too often if he tries a pass over 10 yards and Johnson is similar.

 

Also when Johnson and Tettey are both playing there isn''t a player to drive forward with the ball, forcing opposition players to break their shape, creating openings. Tettey did this a little at the beginning of the season but seems to do it less recently (I think he has been hampered more by injuries than we are told about, he lost close to a whole season at Rennes with injuries).

 

For me I would like to see a midfield anchored by Johnson with Tettey and Howson in front - as long as Tettey is still able to burst forward.

 

Howson isn''t a flashy player but has been excellent in the last few games for Norwich.

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Explains a lot as I would consider Carrick one of the most over rated players in the league.

Teams like Manu might be able to afford a player swanning around the midfield "linking" without creating much but teams like Norwich

cannot afford such luxuries. Howson hardly ever tries a pass over 5 yds and most are sideways.

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[quote user="KeelansGlove"]

Explains a lot as I would consider Carrick one of the most over rated players in the league.

Teams like Manu might be able to afford a player swanning around the midfield "linking" without creating much but teams like Norwich

cannot afford such luxuries. Howson hardly ever tries a pass over 5 yds and most are sideways.

[/quote]

I think regardless of the team, a linking midfielder is one of the most important positions. I would also say that pretty much every team (apart from Stoke) has at least one. Without this type of player you are stuck with long balls from back to front all game long - which can work, but will never take a team that far.

 

No problem with sideways, 5 yard passes - they are there to keep the ball with your team and keep the other team moving. Spain and Barcelona have been dominating world football with the 5 yard pass for a few years now. The days of the 40 yard punt are coming to an end, even in the Premier Leauge - Stoke are currently the last home of this style and even Big Sam has introduced ball playing midfielders.

 

If you don''t like midfielders that ''swan around'' linking play you probably aren''t going to enjoy Premier League football much longer as that seems to be the next big trend.

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Howson surely offers more going forward. He is much more likely to create something than either Tettey or Johnson, and probably packs a more effective shot. (Johnson seems to have forgotten how to get his Howitzers on target.) He is also quick off the mark and quicker than most of the team over short distances.

 

The problem could be a defensive one. If we play two wingers, and one of them is the recently injured Pilkington, then we may be be short of tracking-back defensive cover, and we have the rather narrow defensive midfield of two players. If one were Howson, then we could be overrun through the middle. Significantly Reading''s goal was scored by a man who ran through the centre from way back on the half-way line.

 

CH seems to have been converted to playing two strikers, at least at home, so he has to solve this problem

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Thats all well and good in theory bethnal,  if thats what howson actually did or offered.    Carrick is a POTS candidate because he demands the ball,  makes himself available to his colleagues and makes key tackles as well as creating.    Howson does that occassionally but not even every game.

 

For me Howson strengths are the extent of ground he covers, he is a committed player who harries and does usually cover well, he is a team player who supports others moving out of position.     However for a ball player he is most effective when he does not have the ball.    Sat was typical of the seasons performances.  He looked good in fits and starts,  but failed to find his target in 20% of his passes (and this was a good game) despite being the passer of the central duo.  He  made two runs with the ball at his feet - losing possession both times.

 

He touches the ball far too infrequently - he had the ball less than half the time and made half the passes that BJ did why?    Yes he moved the ball more successfully (BJs a very poor 68%),  but the game goes on around him far too frequently.    His ground coverage does help cover him,  but on Sat he gave up on tracking their goal scorer far too easily (he started alongside him) and simply makes too few tackles, 1 on sat, 1 effective clearance and no fouls committed.   Its like that game in game out - and for 1 assist all season.   What does he bring to the team?

 

I have no doubt there is a very talented footballer in there,   but he has to show that in his performances on the pitch.   It has become more than a coincidence that we have lost more than 50% of our games where Howson has started,  both this season and last.   He is just currently ineffective;  hopefully with some confidence he will change that.

 

I am with KeelansGlove - do people really feel his contribution was truly MOTM standard? 

 

 

 

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

I think regardless of the team, a linking midfielder is one of the most important positions.[/quote]

 

I completely agree with this - we just need to buy an effective one come the summer

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Thats all well and good in theory bethnal,  if thats what howson actually did or offered.    Carrick is a POTS candidate because he demands the ball,  makes himself available to his colleagues and makes key tackles as well as creating.    Howson does that occassionally but not even every game.

 

For me Howson strengths are the extent of ground he covers, he is a committed player who harries and does usually cover well, he is a team player who supports others moving out of position.     However for a ball player he is most effective when he does not have the ball.    Sat was typical of the seasons performances.  He looked good in fits and starts,  but failed to find his target in 20% of his passes (and this was a good game) despite being the passer of the central duo.  He  made two runs with the ball at his feet - losing possession both times.

 

He touches the ball far too infrequently - he had the ball less than half the time and made half the passes that BJ did why?    Yes he moved the ball more successfully (BJs a very poor 68%),  but the game goes on around him far too frequently.    His ground coverage does help cover him,  but on Sat he gave up on tracking their goal scorer far too easily (he started alongside him) and simply makes too few tackles, 1 on sat, 1 effective clearance and no fouls committed.   Its like that game in game out - and for 1 assist all season.   What does he bring to the team?

 

I have no doubt there is a very talented footballer in there,   but he has to show that in his performances on the pitch.   It has become more than a coincidence that we have lost more than 50% of our games where Howson has started,  both this season and last.   He is just currently ineffective;  hopefully with some confidence he will change that.

 

I am with KeelansGlove - do people really feel his contribution was truly MOTM standard? 

[/quote]

It is certainly true that Howson is better at going forward than defending - he has given possession away less than most in the last few Norwich games and although isn''t on the ball as much as other players as you also said much of his best work is off the ball.

 

I really like Howson as a player, and once he had a consistant run in the team he has improved a lot - he has been unfortunate that he has been played as a deeper defender for a lot of those games though rather than in a position further forward when he has less tracking back to do (although he is generally very good at this). I would have liked to see play more in the position he did against Arsenal, where he was probably Norwich''s most influencial player going forward - although less creative than Hoolahan he is better at breaking into the box and a little more direct.

 

The player I would compare him most to is Frank Lampard, who in his earlier days was wasted playing in a deeper position, but once allowed more freedom to get forward showed his true qualities. Whilst Howson certainly isn''t Frank Lampard, he is better than many people seem to think.

 

Whilst he isn''t perfect as a ball player, he is the best Norwich currently have and if he hadn''t been asked to fill in a role he wasn''t suited to I think we would have seen a lot more from Howson. Don''t read too much into statistics (especially the patchy free stats available online), the worst are assists. I could get a Premier League assist by standing in the box and the ball bouncing off my arse, but a player who hit a 50 yard crossfield ball into me would get nothing for an excellent pass - and neither would the player making a run off the ball to create the space.

 

I don''t think he was man of the match on Saturday, but he had a good game and deserves a game against Stoke (hopefully in a 4-2-3-1 just behind the striker).

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"hogesar"Problem is, we said exactly the same towards the end of last season. Never really materialised until, you guessed it, the end of the season.

Problem with this statement is we only signed him in January and he was injured and didn''t play his first game until the 3rd of march (stoke), so not sure how you expected him to perform when he wasn''t at the club!!!

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He looks to have more freedom at the moment which is key- I think what has been key not just for Howson but for the team in general is players are less restrained. You look at the first goal v Swansea Benno, Wes and Snoddy all got beyond Kamara and turned the Swansea defence.

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]Whilst he isn''t perfect as a ball player, he is the best Norwich currently have[/quote]I''m pretty sure a certain Mr Fox would have something to say about that...The problem there however is that Fox doesn''t have the overall energy and physicality that Howson does, leading to a different type of issue.Personally I''d rather have Fox''s passing and vision over Howson''s running, but in truth we need a better player than either of whom, one who has ALL of those attributes instead of them being split across 2-3 players...

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I think considering that Howson has still made less than 40 Premier League appearances, he''s still got his best years infront of him and his performances are being increasingly stronger I think it''s worth people getting behind him and recognising the talent the guy has got.

 

I know there''s a few people on here who think differently but I think Howson will be very much part of Hughton''s plans going forward and I also think he''s got quite a high ceiling in terms of his potential.

 

He''s a very good player and in time I think he''ll change a few minds - provided people are prepared to change their minds and admit they might have got it a bit wrong.

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Can someone find a stat of Goals assists and saving tackles for Howson ?  Anything else is just hot air. We will spend money to replace him in the summer thankfully but would much rather have Fox or Surman alongside BJ or Tettey maybe both away from home.

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KeelansGlove wrote the following post at 23/04/2013 12:53 AM:

Can someone find a stat of Goals assists and saving tackles for Howson ?Here you go:  http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/168Apparently our 17th best player (overall) despite making 26 appearances this season.

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Howson is a player I really like, for so young he has the attributes, I agree when played to his strengths his performances are much better.

I also agree our four man midfield is not up to scratch, it is a lot better than last seasons four man midfield, but we do need to improve this set up, I believe tettey can have another stormer next season. We need a genuine class wide player and central midfielder. We have disruptive players who will improve with a better central midfield partner.

Really rvw''s insight into our transfer dealings would be right, two wingers and a central midfielder. I do not think eb is up to playing regularly and pilky is not consistent enough. You need these wide players to contribute.

I think we have improved greatly defensively, but it would be nice to defend with attacking football and possession, I think next season we will. Howson will still be a part of that but he will improve alongside these better players coming in.

I expect tettey and bj to battle it out for that other position, for me I would like tettey to be given that role. I think he is the better player who will improve. Bj is very consistent but with tettey as well we have two players who will improve.

Howson will improve and with better players our teams can be better. Eb and pilky may well improve with new players coming in, but they will be back up if two new wingers come in, Snodgrass has done enough to say he needs to be a first teamer but he may well get a battle for that place with another wide player.

We cannot buy too many unproven top level players (championship and below) we need to look to Europe and premiership cast offs - bassong and turner.

Our players will improve, but get in the right players this summer and we will be developing the talent of Ryan Bennett, pilky, butterfield and Howson.

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[quote user="KeelansGlove"]

Explains a lot as I would consider Carrick one of the most over rated players in the league.

Teams like Manu might be able to afford a player swanning around the midfield "linking" without creating much but teams like Norwich

cannot afford such luxuries. Howson hardly ever tries a pass over 5 yds and most are sideways.

[/quote]

Carrick is class. Any person with a football brain would understand this.

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[quote user="hogesar"]Problem is, we said exactly the same towards the end of last season. Never really materialised until, you guessed it, the end of the season[/quote]He SIGNED halfway through the season! You can''t really hold it against him for not playing for the first half of the season!!

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[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Can someone find a stat of Goals assists and saving tackles for Howson ?  Anything else is just hot air. We will spend money to replace him in the summer thankfully but would much rather have Fox or Surman alongside BJ or Tettey maybe both away from home.[/quote]

Do you think when Chris Hughton wants to buy a new player he''ll just look at a bunch of stats and make a decision from that or do you think he will actually go to watch that player in person to appreciate all the aspects of their game that stats don''t show?

 

Jonny Howson is a good player and only a fool would think otherwise.

 

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[quote user="Kolin Kob"][quote user="hogesar"]Problem is, we said exactly the same towards the end of last season. Never really materialised until, you guessed it, the end of the season[/quote]He SIGNED halfway through the season! You can''t really hold it against him for not playing for the first half of the season!![/quote]

I don''t think you understand. In fact, you don''t understand.

Yes he signed halfway through last season. He started playing more towards the end of that season, and as i said above, people including myself were talking about how he could potentially be a key player for us next season (which, if you''re following, would be this season), based on those performances.

However, that never materialised at the start of THIS season, and now the OP is stating exactly the same that many others did at the end of last season.

Geddit?

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[quote user="GJP"]

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Can someone find a stat of Goals assists and saving tackles for Howson ?  Anything else is just hot air. We will spend money to replace him in the summer thankfully but would much rather have Fox or Surman alongside BJ or Tettey maybe both away from home.[/quote]

Do you think when Chris Hughton wants to buy a new player he''ll just look at a bunch of stats and make a decision from that or do you think he will actually go to watch that player in person to appreciate all the aspects of their game that stats don''t show?

 

Jonny Howson is a good player and only a fool would think otherwise.

 

[/quote]

He has the potential to be a good player. Since he''s been here there''s not been enough consistency to claim he is a good player. Good players are, by nature, consistently quite good.

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The thing that confuses me most about Howson is where he should play. So far in his Norwich career he''s played as a deep-lying playmaker at the base of a diamond, a box-to-box midfielder in a 4-4-2, a deep-central midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 and an advanced midfielder in a 4-4-1-1. He is an incredibly versatile player, both Hughton and Lambert were comfortable playing him in a variety of midfield roles. Sometimes I wonder if this versatility has effected his adaption to the premier league. Johnson, Fox, Tettey, Hoolahan et al. have pretty much played the same role for this club, Howson has never had that chance. 

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TBF Hogesar, Howson had a different manager at the start of this season, compared with end of last, and Hughton was very focused on tightening defensive side. As the season has progressed, we are seeing more of Howson, who is turning in some very good performances over recent games.

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Howson was one player at fault when the Stoke scorer started his run from the centre circle towards our goal, but others also failed to close him down until it was too late. He occasionally makes poor passesses, but then others give the ball away - one of our greatest failings, according to CH. Even Bassong recently seems to have failed at times in this.

 

What he does do very well is to get forward quickly with good control and spot a passing possibility. He has one of the best shots from a distance in the team. He would have scored at least one goal by now, but one of our players got in the way!

 

It was difficult for him to break into the team because Tettey and Johno are arguably better defenders, and with 2 strikers or one plus Wes, and also two wingers, there is no place for him in the midfield. If we are looking for good approach play to supply RvW, then at his best he really ought to play. To get to his best he needs game time, - something that has only just happened.

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[quote user="Salopian"]

Howson was one player at fault when the Stoke scorer started his run from the centre circle towards our goal, but others also failed to close him down until it was too late. He occasionally makes poor passesses, but then others give the ball away - one of our greatest failings, according to CH. Even Bassong recently seems to have failed at times in this.

 

What he does do very well is to get forward quickly with good control and spot a passing possibility. He has one of the best shots from a distance in the team. He would have scored at least one goal by now, but one of our players got in the way!

 

It was difficult for him to break into the team because Tettey and Johno are arguably better defenders, and with 2 strikers or one plus Wes, and also two wingers, there is no place for him in the midfield. If we are looking for good approach play to supply RvW, then at his best he really ought to play. To get to his best he needs game time, - something that has only just happened.

[/quote]which in turn means to get the best out of RvW, we need to play just one DM, and as Tetty and Johnson are not good enough all round players we need that one creative DM. Biglia comes to mind again. but this means Jonno being sidelined, unless he can learn how to pass.

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

It is certainly true that Howson is better at going forward than defending - he has given possession away less than most in the last few Norwich games and although isn''t on the ball as much as other players as you also said much of his best work is off the ball.

The player I would compare him most to is Frank Lampard, who in his earlier days was wasted playing in a deeper position, but once allowed more freedom to get forward showed his true qualities. Whilst Howson certainly isn''t Frank Lampard, he is better than many people seem to think.

I don''t think he was man of the match on Saturday, but he had a good game and deserves a game against Stoke (hopefully in a 4-2-3-1 just behind the striker).

[/quote]Not sure how he could be man of the match, he did very little overall.  He is very slow to do anything in possession. I hope he continues improving as at the moment he really is not up to this level.

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[quote user="crabbycanary"]TBF Hogesar, Howson had a different manager at the start of this season, compared with end of last, and Hughton was very focused on tightening defensive side. As the season has progressed, we are seeing more of Howson, who is turning in some very good performances over recent games.[/quote]

Maybe true, but so did everybody else. And in the first half of the season it wasn''t like we didn''t try more attacking models. We''ve played Holt up top with Jackson etc, we''ve had Tettey not match fit at points in the season etc etc.

As for `some very good performance over recent games`. I''d say he''s had about 3 all season, but yes they have been fairly recent.

That''s not enough for me to have the same opinion i did last year that he could me a massive player for us the following year.

Obviously, the season isn''t over yet and he''s still got more time to win me over.

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