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lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel)

Stadium expansion

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Am I right in thinking that if we stay up this season then plans to develop Carrow road will commence?

If so is the plan to start construction work during next season or 2014/15? If next season then detailed plans must already be in place.

I''d like to see the City stand replaced with a stand similar to the Jarrold stand. With regard to capacity I reckon we could fill 30k reqular but should we build bigger for the bigger games? I like seeing Carrow road packed to the rafters and a capacity of 32-33k might mean a few empty seats for the lesser games.

 

 

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Am I the only one who thinks we shouldnt bother. I think it would be alot better to spend large sums of money like that on other things such as players and development to make sure we actually stay up for good. It would be amazing to have the city stand as big as the Jarrold but I think we should wait a another 4 seasons till we have a better footing in the prem.

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[quote user="lincoln canary"]

Am I right in thinking that if we stay up this season then plans to develop Carrow road will commence?

If so is the plan to start construction work during next season or 2014/15? If next season then detailed plans must already be in place.

I''d like to see the City stand replaced with a stand similar to the Jarrold stand. With regard to capacity I reckon we could fill 30k reqular but should we build bigger for the bigger games? I like seeing Carrow road packed to the rafters and a capacity of 32-33k might mean a few empty seats for the lesser games.

 

 

[/quote]

 

No. Almost certainly not. That previous mantra abour expansion if we stayed up into a third season got severely watered down in an online webchat McNally did in, from memory, September of last year, and Bowkett a month later also was much less bullish about the idea. The current form of words is on the lines of "If we consolidate our position in the Premier League [which is far less precise than ''after two seasons''] we may [not ''will''] think about some expansion [ as opposed to the previous definite figure of an etxra 8,000 seats]."

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Ive always been a fan of the City Stand being redeveloped into something of similar size to the Jarrold, the additional seating bringing us up to around 30,000 would be approprite, we would pack it out for pretty much all the games; Season ticket waiting list, away team demand and general sales figures suggest that we would be able to fill a large ammont of that, if not all of it for the bigger games. It would also be good to upgrade all of the facillites on that side of the ground, better hospitality, changing rooms, media facilites etc. However, I  personally think we need at least another 2 seasons to really prove that we arnt contenders to drop out of the league anymore (though always a possibility) and sure up the finances. Yet again this Summer and next Id rather see 20 million go into the transfer kitty than into a new stand at this present time. I think in Mcnallys mind it will be a good 5 years and thats if we are top flight and looking Stable like an Everton or Fulham.

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Have we not done this to death already lol?I think the best we could expect is maybe 32,000 for the big games, and 28,000 for the lesser ones, and thats being optimistic.Which creates a dilemma, do you just expand a little bit, or go the whole hog and go for say, 35,000 and put up with the empty seats?I can''t remember the maths but basically the cost of each seat means that you have to fill it, week in week out, for something like 3 seasons.Factor in the debt that we get into for the build costs (taking vital funds away from the first team) and also lost revenue while its being built means there is risk.I would re-evaluate this time next season, and frankly I wouldn''t be surprised if we actually see a small drop in matchday attendance as the novelty wears off for some people, and they realise they can''t actually afford it.

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i have always been in favor of expanding, whether there is the need right now I don''t know.

But I do think that expanding the stadium would create a dual legacy both being debt-free and a bigger stadium.

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Earlier this year I was told by someone that works at the club that a temporary stand would be put in the hotel corner this summer if we stay up.

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[quote user="ncfc_greg"]Earlier this year I was told by someone that works at the club that a temporary stand would be put in the hotel corner this summer if we stay up.[/quote]I believe this was looked at last summer and there was issues with it.

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[quote user="Baracouda"]i have always been in favor of expanding, whether there is the need right now I don''t know.

But I do think that expanding the stadium would create a dual legacy both being debt-free and a bigger stadium.[/quote]But so as not to detract from the playing budget, we would have to take on a debt to cover the construction..Without looking "cup half empty" how many times have we seen clubs in the championship with "stadium half empty"Ask Wolves fans if they would have rather spent money on players lol.

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your right Morty.

However, I assumed rightly or more likely wrongly that the expansion would be no moren of 10-15m.

Considering we are clearing our debt of 27m in two seasons. (27m is what i think it was, over 20 anyway).

Therefore, 2+2 = we could pay for it one season, and as such would be a good thing. (debt free end of this season with a 35k stadium)

However, if my assumptions are wrong then I may reconsider my ''approval''. That been said I haven''t looked into great depth, only been approving of concept, but never that much to look into great deal such as costs etc. So it''s more than likely i''m wrong.

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[quote user="Baracouda"]your right Morty.

However, I assumed rightly or more likely wrongly that the expansion would be no moren of 10-15m.

Considering we are clearing our debt of 27m in two seasons. (27m is what i think it was, over 20 anyway).

Therefore, 2+2 = we could pay for it one season, and as such would be a good thing. (debt free end of this season with a 35k stadium)

However, if my assumptions are wrong then I may reconsider my ''approval''. That been said I haven''t looked into great depth, only been approving of concept, but never that much to look into great deal such as costs etc. So it''s more than likely i''m wrong.[/quote]Yeah that all makes sense.But what if we go down?And all of a sudden we''re in the Championship, with a great big stadium with empty seats in, and a debt of 30 million?If it was YOUR money would you risk it? I''m not so sure I would.

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If it was my money then I would go for it.

On the assumption end of season3 we will have cleared majority of the stadium debt, if paying a similar amount of money to our current debt plan.

The reasoning being, that with our wages increase in TV money and more importantly parachute payments, there is a good chance we could go down, and still be making a healthy profit (not sure just guessing, maybe someone more in the know could verify that).

With McNally I have complete faith that he would organise NCFC for a very good shout of going up, in the time during the parachute payments. In a similar vein to a West Brom.

The flip side would be, that we would have 15th largest ground in the country. Currently we have 29th largest ground in the country.

so even if we got regulated, and if we did get promoted during the parachute payments, we would have very strong foundation or if we don''t get relegated next season (which i still believe we are on an upward curve).

The other clubs, Wolves, Birmingham''s etc have all come down i''m lead to believe with enormous debt and wage bills. Neither would be the case for Norwich. I believe McNally is the difference maker in comparison to other similar sized clubs.

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Yup, I hear all that, and don''t entirely disagree.But....Fans through the turnstiles don''t actually matter that much any more, 70 odd million quid of Premiership television money matters a whole lot more.How many teams actually come straight back up though?For me its a massive risk, as really we don''t actually have the local population that create a big enough demand, like I said, expand to 35k (which is the likeliest scenario) and you are going to have a lot of empty seats for a lot of games.I seem to remember a certain Mr Chase putting bricks and mortar before first team, and look how that turned out.The dynamic has changed entirely for me, if there was an option to add maybe 5000 seats at a minimum cost (ie another tier on the city stand, which can''t be done) then it would be ideal, but we are looking at demolishing the stand entirely and starting from scratch.

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yes, the 5k would be perfect.

Naturally, nothing should come before the first team development. However, I do fear it could be something you either do now, or never do.

Every season we stay in premiership our wages will go up, which will probably mean that stadium expansion could not happen for quite a few seasons as the disposal income drops.

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[quote user="Baracouda"]yes, the 5k would be perfect.

Naturally, nothing should come before the first team development. However, I do fear it could be something you either do now, or never do.

Every season we stay in premiership our wages will go up, which will probably mean that stadium expansion could not happen for quite a few seasons as the disposal income drops.[/quote]Its tricky, its a huge decision, and if the board got it wrong it could be looked on as monumentally stupid.We''re sitting pretty right now, demand is outstripping supply in the seat department, liek I say, it wouldn''t surprise me if attendances actually tailed back a little next season.Oh and theres also the issue of where the hell you going to put all the season ticket holders from the city stand during construction? We had the benefit of smaller crowds when we did the south stand!

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Stadium Half Empty Syndrome - does that apply to us? Since the South Stand became the Jarrold/since our play off season - how many bread and butter league games (not cup) have been below 20k? How many below 22k? It''s 10 years sustained attendances including bouncing to the 1st tier, way to the 3rd and back again. That''s credible reason not to look into it more than many other clubs wallowing in Championship prime ''hoping'' to get to the play offs.

This seasons season ticket waiting list may be lower that last years but that''s a trend more to do with current climate than the clubs progress, imo. Times will get better and when (won''t be if) people have some free cash, where will some head back to? We could miss an chance if sitting on our hands. We could go down again but history of the past decade does suggest we would still get attendances in - none of this below 20k crowds you see at other clubs claiming to be bigger than us. Attendance figures don''t lie - the prices you pay to get bums on seats helps and good marketing/pricing.

I have faith in our fans in turning out, although the past season a minority (be it more vocal) disappointed in how we''re doing in the league - we''re not the biggest club in the country but by heck why the fek can''t a few be more proud?

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The crux of the matter is that when you''re in the Premiership, attendances actually make very little difference, see Wigan as an example.Yes we have made massive progress in recent years, but we are in plateau phase now.I can honestly say, hand on heart, I do not think we would fill a 35k stadium more than 3 or 4 times a season.

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Thorny it''s my current belief, that we could fill it and still fill it in the championship..

But to be fair to the other argument, you only have to look at the teams in the past who was well supported and really struggling to get a crowd i.e Leeds/Sheff Wed/Boro and even our friends down the road. So I do accept things change, and there is a distinct possibility of the crowds would drop after being in the championship a couple of seasons, especially when you look at other teams who expected to keep nearly full crowds.

I was quite 100% for 35k before. But I have realized a lot more, how tricky it could be, and maybe we could have better users for the money. I will for now remain in the ''for'' view tho.

What possibility should be consider is a couple of low levels teams are trialing 3g surfaces. Having played on it a little bit, it''s very good surface and would probably add value to the entertainment on show with true bounces and flat pitches.

But it will make the grounds more readily available and not just for football, would have a lot of market value in theory, and whether would ever change the requirements of the main stand in the future, I don''t know and can''t really perceive how, but who knows what grounds would be used of if they was being used 4 or 5 days a week. But will watch it''s introduction to the game with interest.

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Expanding on my attendance theory, I have 3 season tickets. I can''t actually make every game due to work, but keep buying the season tickets, as I know I will be able to get my 3 seats together, theres no chance of doing this as a casual.But if I knew that I could pick and choose my games, and get tickets for most games, would I keep renewing my season tickets? Probably not.I should imagine the club is actually quite happy with the actual supply and demand situation, to be honest.

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yes i would imagine it is a perception. I suppose, it''s inbred by the commentators, when they mention the ground sizes now and again. A lot of clubs have been referred to by the size of the ground, when viewing them in ''size'' clubs. But I guess it is true, the bigger clubs have bigger grounds.

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[quote user="Baracouda"]yes i would imagine it is a perception. I suppose, it''s inbred by the commentators, when they mention the ground sizes now and again. A lot of clubs have been referred to by the size of the ground, when viewing them in ''size'' clubs. But I guess it is true, the bigger clubs have bigger grounds.[/quote]Through years of success and sensible expansion.And also a throwback from the days when the money you made through the turnstiles actually had a bearing on how much you could spend on players.

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Call me crazy but think we should move the broadcast tv platform to the other side of the pitch so the cameras can look at the Jarrold stand - an instant upgrade perception as a Premier League club... put a big advertising mural on the hotel while we are at it.

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Let''s'' try that again ...

Call me crazy but I think we should move the broadcast tv platform to the other side of the pitch so the cameras can look out at the Jarrold stand - an instant upgrade to our perception as a Premier League club... and put a big advertising mural on the hotel while we are at it.

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[quote user="Yellow Rose of Texas"]Let''s'' try that again ... Call me crazy but I think we should move the broadcast tv platform to the other side of the pitch so the cameras can look out at the Jarrold stand - an instant upgrade to our perception as a Premier League club... and put a big advertising mural on the hotel while we are at it.[/quote]

 

Yes I''ve always thought ths too. The City stand looks tiny on camera and gives the impression of a small ground.

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Wolves added another tier to a stand towards the end of their recent spell in the PL, and they''re now staring League One in the face. Be careful what you wish for IMO. Just one week ago, we were a home defeat away from being perilously close to going down. As another poster said, let''s wait until we''re more like Fulham, who very rarely come close to going down.

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