larger stadium at what cost?

[Bradwell canary 109]

I went to the game when we played Wolves. I could not believe the size of the new stand under construction. I understand that it has cost £18M!!

What a complete waste of money, as they will plying their trade in DIV 1 next season.

I think that our board will take note , as I am sure they will.

At this stage of our development we must only invest in the squad. ( mind you a couple of big screens would not go amiss!)

[Shaun Tilly Lace 0]

Stadium expansion is a tricky thing to get right. All I would say is, when we were in the 3rd Division we could have utilised a bigger capacity in several games, so I don''t think it would be a complete waste of time for us to increase the size of our stadium, whichever division we are in.

[morty 0]

http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/2906259/ShowPost.aspx

Completely agree.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

I''m pretty sure we could fill a bigger stadium regularly. Say 30,000. I think anything larger could have a negative effect on season tickets and less attractive fixtures. But for me the big problem is taking the money away from the football team to pay for it.

 

 

[Hannibal II 0]

I think the ground needs to be bigger at the moment around 32k would be about right. the trouble we have is carrow road behind the city stand is not owned by the club and is not for sale as far as i am aware. That would mean the only viable option would be to put another tier on the Jarrold.

[Salopian 1]

It''s not going to happen in 2013, but they have probably discussed options with architects.

Even if we had had a storming season and finished in the top ten, it wouldn''t have happened this year. We have now paid off the debt, and we have the prospect to signing expensive players, so it might not even be possible in 2014.

[Bury Yellow 2]

Chief Exec has commented this week that there is no plans for new City Stand (Sir Geoffrey Watling).

I''m surprised there would be a problem with the road behind the stand. I thought the club did own it and in Worthy''s day there was a talk of a cantilever incorporating the top tier.

Frustrating though it is to only have a 26000 capacity I think the board are correct in their planning but I can''t wait to see a new two tier main stand with the corner infills increased accordingly. The Carra will look a treat then.

[BigFish 1,986]

[quote user="Hannibal II"]I think the ground needs to be bigger at the moment around 32k would be about right. the trouble we have is carrow road behind the city stand is not owned by the club and is not for sale as far as i am aware. That would mean the only viable option would be to put another tier on the Jarrold.[/quote]

Trouble is we would only fill it around 6 times a season and the big fear is the ground grows so big we never fill and then the incentive to be a season ticket holder goes away and the gates go down.

[Syteanric 1]

River end is now the oldest at the ground... surely due something a bit better?

[basil brush 0]

[quote user="Bury Yellow"]Chief Exec has commented this week that there is no plans for new City Stand (Sir Geoffrey Watling).

I''m surprised there would be a problem with the road behind the stand. I thought the club did own it and in Worthy''s day there was a talk of a cantilever incorporating the top tier.

Frustrating though it is to only have a 26000 capacity I think the board are correct in their planning but I can''t wait to see a new two tier main stand with the corner infills increased accordingly. The Carra will look a treat then.[/quote]

I was at Carrow Road recently on business and was told by an employee that part of the problem is Morrisons. When the Riverside was (re) built, the supermarket chain had to chip in and I think they own the bit between Carrow Road and the main road towards the bridge.

While everyone has their price, this could be the reason why - for the time being at least - the City Stand redevelopment is on ice. Shame, I would love to see it done as it looks like Subbuteo stand!

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Salopian"]

 so it might not even be possible in 2014.

[/quote]

I think you are right and  I suspect they still have to pay the interest they didnt pay during the debt holiday and the early redemption penalty which are likely to be found in those rather large accruals at the last Balance Sheet date.

There''s also alot of work to be done regarding our playing squad.

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Bury Yellow"] Frustrating though it is to only have a 26000 capacity .[/quote]

Dont you mean 27000 approx.?

[Monty13 2,229]

Wolves invested that money when they were almost certain to be in or around the relegation zone that season. I agree we should invest in the squad for now, but the plans for a new stand should be ready to go when it is deemed prudent.

[kingsway 94]

We certainly needa bigger ground and as an earlier poster said we could have had a few 30,000+ crowds in League 1 a few years back so their is no worry about filling the ground especially in the top flight.

 

The only problem is the cost and we''re better waiting a little while longer before doing a major rebuild.

 

Personnally if we are still in the top flight after the end of next season then I''d do it. The Jarold stand could have a 4-6000 upper tier built on it which wouldn''t need the current capacity to go down during the works!

[morty 0]

[quote user="kingsway"]

We certainly needa bigger ground and as an earlier poster said we could have had a few 30,000+ crowds in League 1 a few years back so their is no worry about filling the ground especially in the top flight.

 

The only problem is the cost and we''re better waiting a little while longer before doing a major rebuild.

 

Personnally if we are still in the top flight after the end of next season then I''d do it. The Jarold stand could have a 4-6000 upper tier built on it which wouldn''t need the current capacity to go down during the works!

[/quote]Who said we could have had a few 30,000+ crowds in league one? And what did they base this on exactly lol!!??

[kingsway 94]

We could have sold 30,000+ for the home games against Huddersfield in December 2009, Millwall on boxing day 2009, Gillingham at home when we won the game to clinch the title and Carlisle on the last day.

 

This is without the Leeds game which I heard could of sold 35,000+!

 

OK only hear say from those involved in the ticketing at Carrow Road but I can believe it, remember we averaged just under 25,000 that season the 3rd Division!

 

Like I said in my previous post, attracting 30,000+ average crowds wouldn''t be the problem especially in the top flight, afterall the club said wayback in the Worthy Premiership season in 2004/05 we could have averaged 30,000+ then.

 

Last season I heard we could have broke our ATT record (just under 44,000) if we had the capacity!

 

Look at the FA Youth cup final last night, just under 22,000 and I bet their was many in that crowd who don''t regularly to games and/or wern''t ST holders!

 

Getting them crowds wouldn''t be the problem, paying for new stands without getting into debt and reducing the paying budget is, hence its a very delicate balancing act but one day it will happen and the club will be able to grow to levels it looks capable of doing so!

 

 

[morty 0]

[quote user="kingsway"]

We could have sold 30,000+ for the home games against Huddersfield in December 2009, Millwall on boxing day 2009, Gillingham at home when we won the game to clinch the title and Carlisle on the last day.

 

This is without the Leeds game which I heard could of sold 35,000+!

 

OK only hear say from those involved in the ticketing at Carrow Road but I can believe it, remember we averaged just under 25,000 that season the 3rd Division!

 

Like I said in my previous post, attracting 30,000+ average crowds wouldn''t be the problem especially in the top flight, afterall the club said wayback in the Worthy Premiership season in 2004/05 we could have averaged 30,000+ then.

 

Last season I heard we could have broke our ATT record (just under 44,000) if we had the capacity!

 

Look at the FA Youth cup final last night, just under 22,000 and I bet their was many in that crowd who don''t regularly to games and/or wern''t ST holders!

 

Getting them crowds wouldn''t be the problem, paying for new stands without getting into debt and reducing the paying budget is, hence its a very delicate balancing act but one day it will happen and the club will be able to grow to levels it looks capable of doing so!

 

 

[/quote]I don''t think you should believe all you hear lol. I seem to remember that although the crowds were amazing for league one, there was always tickets left.And you have no idea how many season ticket holders were in the crowd last night either.It is a lot more complex than just pure numbers, its about supply and demand, and I still doubt we would regularly sell out 30,000+ unless one of the big teams were in town.

[basil brush 0]

I remember when we went up in 2004, the midweek home match against West Brom was noted by the ticket office as having such demand that at least 38,000 fans could have attended had we had the capacity.

It is not unreasonable to assume we would get 40,000 on the odd occasion against the largest clubs, though to have a stadium that big is asking too much for the time being.

[morty 0]

[quote user="basil brush"]I remember when we went up in 2004, the midweek home match against West Brom was noted by the ticket office as having such demand that at least 38,000 fans could have attended had we had the capacity.

It is not unreasonable to assume we would get 40,000 on the odd occasion against the largest clubs, though to have a stadium that big is asking too much for the time being.[/quote]38,000, midweek against West Brom, really?

[Bill 1,788]

"Look at the FA Youth cup final last night, just under 22,000 "

 

 

yes, then look at the price

 

whilst a few ''big games'' would attract higher gates, the others would not without fairly hefty price cuts - which would mean price cuts right ac ross the board, which would mean that the overall take would at best be neutral and at worse actually lose money and those figures presume around 95% occupancy

 

so the scenario is that any expansion will be at a cost of the loan, interest on the loan. likely loss of ticket revenue and loss of ticket revenue from the loss of use of the Main stand whilst it is being rebuilt

 

those losses can only come from the playing budget, and will continue to do so for the next decade or more

 

at the moment the practicalities are such that there is NOT a solution to where the 4000 displaced season ticket holders will go during construction of the new stand, aside from the question of whether the club has full access to Carrow Road to build upon part of it

[TIL 1010 4,717]

All this talk of bigger crowds when we were in League One everybody should remember that the pricing structure for that season had already been put in place by Doomcaster & Co.in about January and February some months before Mr Mcnally appeared on the scene. What he has done to prices since is well known by everybody.Selling 30,000 plus tickets at say £25 is somewhat different to the now £50 plus a game.

[Bill 1,788]

What he has done is simply adjusted the prices to meet demand. Sadky, this board is cluttered up with numpties who seem to think that the demand is fairly static and only rises or drops according to the ''importance; of a game. That leads them to think that if by magic a new stand could be built on say the existing Main Stand giving an extra 4000 or even 8000 seats the prices will remain pretty much as they are.

 

So in this la la land the club would simply gain loads and loads more money from those extra seats as and when they are sold.

 

We are pretty much at our optimum  point, regarding price x demand ie we get the maximum return from the maximum seats sold. Add an extra 2000 seats in front of the hotel and you would have to lower the price to fill those seats for many of the games. Howeverb there is a floor to how far tey can be lowered before the price impedes upon season ticket holders value ie why buy a season ticket when it is cheaper to buy casual by missing a few of the ''crap'' matches - that''s why the binners have to keep their casual seat tickets so high and why having a small surplus very soon snowballs into a bigger and bigger surplusof empty seats.

 

£3M ''subsidy'' may not seem much now but a few years back ibto the Championship and it would be crippling

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[star_manic 0]

i estimate that the extra income should we increase capacity and average attendances increase by 5,000, would be in the region of £200,000 per game, minus extra costs- electricity, staff, upkeep etc. in 19 home matches that would be an extra £3.5M approx.

[Tarquin 0]

By contrast, my back of fag packet calculations show a staggering £1 million loss per game!! Fortunately, like you, I haveknowledge of the actual figures/factors involved. And no evidence to back up my contention. Phew, what a relief!

[nutty nigel 7,506]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="basil brush"]I remember when we went up in 2004, the midweek home match against West Brom was noted by the ticket office as having such demand that at least 38,000 fans could have attended had we had the capacity. It is not unreasonable to assume we would get 40,000 on the odd occasion against the largest clubs, though to have a stadium that big is asking too much for the time being.[/quote]

38,000, midweek against West Brom, really?
[/quote]

 

But not at £40/£50 a pop. Over 20,000 for the yoof last night when they were free or a couple of quid. And the game was live on non-premium tv!

 

 

 

 

[morty 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="basil brush"]I remember when we went up in 2004, the midweek home match against West Brom was noted by the ticket office as having such demand that at least 38,000 fans could have attended had we had the capacity. It is not unreasonable to assume we would get 40,000 on the odd occasion against the largest clubs, though to have a stadium that big is asking too much for the time being.[/quote]38,000, midweek against West Brom, really?[/quote]

 

But not at £40/£50 a pop. Over 20,000 for the yoof last night when they were free or a couple of quid. And the game was live on non-premium tv!

 

 

 

 

[/quote]I don''t think we''d get 38,000 for a midweek game against the baggies if they made it two quid a pop lol.I call bullplop.

[TIL 1010 4,717]

[quote user="star_manic"]i estimate that the extra income should we increase capacity and average attendances increase by 5,000, would be in the region of £200,000 per game, minus extra costs- electricity, staff, upkeep etc. in 19 home matches that would be an extra £3.5M approx.
[/quote]

Based of course on selling ALL 5,000 seats for EVERY game. Do you seriously think that would happen ?

 

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="star_manic"]i estimate that the extra income should we increase capacity and average attendances increase by 5,000, would be in the region of £200,000 per game, minus extra costs- electricity, staff, upkeep etc. in 19 home matches that would be an extra £3.5M approx.[/quote]

 

That is priceless

 

The club suddenly abandons it''s pricing structure, something that is has used and developed in more than a decade to both restrict and stimulate demand ....... because somehow by magic it finds itself with an extra 5000 seats.

 

You have to wonder where we find them

 

Even the most basic check would tell you that season 2011/12 earned us £11.3m which works out at around £400,000 per thousand seats ie around £2m. That is with premium prices for casual tickets and virtually every game as good as sold out. Is any body seriously suggesting that we would be able to sell out an extra three to four thoudand more seats for games against the likes of Wigan, Reading, Stoke, Fulham etc ?

 

As stated above the overall take is thought to be neutral or even possible lower

 

 

 

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="Tarquin"]By contrast, my back of fag packet calculations show a staggering £1 million loss per game!! Fortunately, like you, I haveknowledge of the actual figures/factors involved. And no evidence to back up my contention. Phew, what a relief![/quote]

 

You can always check the clubs accounts, they are online

 

which shouldn''t be too difficult a task - not for someone who took the trouble to set up another account just so as not to be seen

 

 

[kingsway 94]

It always amazes me the amount of people who think we don''t need a bigger stadium. They base their assumptions as though we struggle to get 20,000 a game when in reality we have averaged 24,000+ until the ground was increased a couple of years back when we''ve since averaged 25,000 then 26,000+ for the last 2 seasons. Based on these "little ole Norwich" theories we''d of kept the old South Stand with a reduced capacity and other clubs like Southampton, Brighton and Swansea, all clubs not bigger or better supported than us wouldn''t already/or are in the process of increasing capacity! 

 

A fact people overlook is when/if we get to 30,000+ capacity we then have to increase the away capacity to a minimum 3000 if the away team needs it. Thats 500 more than present so the max capacity currently allowed 26,840+ 500 = 27,340, under 5000 to fill in order to average 32,000.

 

I''ve said for a long while that if Carrow Road held 35,000, we''d average 32,000+ in the top flight, 6000 more than we do at present, not a huge amount. We''d get 35,000 against Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal and maybe 2-3 others, 30,000+ for the majority of the other games and maybe 2-3 games when the ATT would drop to 28-30,000.

 

The clubs have always made out the City stand is the obvious stand to be redeveloped but an upper tier on the Jarold would on reality be the best one to do cause the construction could take place without reducing the capacity!

 

Any big development won''t happen until next summer at the earliest anyway but the longer we stay in the top flight then the sense it will make to "grow" the club a massive part of which will be increasing the ground capacity!