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Warren Hill

Hughton and improvement

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[quote user="CaptnCanary"]

[quote user="morty"]If the club made the buyback scheme more realistic then you could have used that.But last time I looked it was something stupid like a fiver, and you don''t even get the money, I think it counts as a credit against next years season ticket![/quote]

FAO morty - OTgot your msg but the thread seems to have been deleted. I totally agree. I did actually call the club this morning to ask about buy back as I''ve not been in this situation before. They said I would get 6 or 8 quid. But that would be a credit as a discount, NOT off next seasons season ticket, but off the following seasons season ticket. That''s pretty pathetic. I would like to use the scheme and allow the club to make a bit more money but they should at least offer half the sale price. What would they have sold it for? £40?

[/quote]Its ridiculous, a totally unrealistic scheme, I''m surprised anyone uses it at all.

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"We look more solid defensively" is like stating the bleedin'' obvious..........

We have two full-backs who (correct me if I''m wrong) venture forward far less than last year. More often than not Hughton plays with two defensive midfielders, who by general consensus, can''t pass and certainly can''t shoot, whose sole purpose is therefore to help the side out defensively. Is it no surprise that we look more solid defensively? With that increase in manpower of 50%, the defence should be nigh on impenetrable. With three games to go and an inevitable number of goals yet to be conceded, the ''goals against'' column is not that much different to last year.

One of the biggest concerns has to be the conversion of Norwich''s captain, talisman, and goal-scoring machine into a pale shadow of his former self. His goals tally last year in the league is three goals short of Benteke''s current total, but ahead of Lukaku''s at this moment in time. He has turned a prolific Championship striker (Becchio) into an insignificant bench-warmer. It doesn''t augur  well for the goal-machine that is RVW.......

This of course has gone hand in hand with the demise of accurate crossing and the general lack of attacking intent. Only once this season have Norwich gone a goal behind and then gone on to win the match, a statistic that offers little hope whenever Norwich concede the first goal.

The jury is very much still out with Mr.Hughton. I''m sure everyone very much wants him to succeed, but there has been nothing to suggest so far in 2013 that he is the man to take the club forward. 

 

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[quote user="unique"]

"We look more solid defensively" is like stating the bleedin'' obvious..........

We have two full-backs who (correct me if I''m wrong) venture forward far less than last year. More often than not Hughton plays with two defensive midfielders, who by general consensus, can''t pass and certainly can''t shoot, whose sole purpose is therefore to help the side out defensively. Is it no surprise that we look more solid defensively? With that increase in manpower of 50%, the defence should be nigh on impenetrable. With three games to go and an inevitable number of goals yet to be conceded, the ''goals against'' column is not that much different to last year.

One of the biggest concerns has to be the conversion of Norwich''s captain, talisman, and goal-scoring machine into a pale shadow of his former self. His goals tally last year in the league is three goals short of Benteke''s current total, but ahead of Lukaku''s at this moment in time. He has turned a prolific Championship striker (Becchio) into an insignificant bench-warmer. It doesn''t augur  well for the goal-machine that is RVW.......

This of course has gone hand in hand with the demise of accurate crossing and the general lack of attacking intent. Only once this season have Norwich gone a goal behind and then gone on to win the match, a statistic that offers little hope whenever Norwich concede the first goal.

The jury is very much still out with Mr.Hughton. I''m sure everyone very much wants him to succeed, but there has been nothing to suggest so far in 2013 that he is the man to take the club forward. 

 

[/quote]

Completely and utterly agree. Particularly the Grant Holt point.

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[quote user="unique"]

"We look more solid defensively" is like stating the bleedin'' obvious..........

We have two full-backs who (correct me if I''m wrong) venture forward far less than last year. More often than not Hughton plays with two defensive midfielders, who by general consensus, can''t pass and certainly can''t shoot, whose sole purpose is therefore to help the side out defensively. Is it no surprise that we look more solid defensively? With that increase in manpower of 50%, the defence should be nigh on impenetrable. With three games to go and an inevitable number of goals yet to be conceded, the ''goals against'' column is not that much different to last year.

One of the biggest concerns has to be the conversion of Norwich''s captain, talisman, and goal-scoring machine into a pale shadow of his former self. His goals tally last year in the league is three goals short of Benteke''s current total, but ahead of Lukaku''s at this moment in time. He has turned a prolific Championship striker (Becchio) into an insignificant bench-warmer. It doesn''t augur  well for the goal-machine that is RVW.......

This of course has gone hand in hand with the demise of accurate crossing and the general lack of attacking intent. Only once this season have Norwich gone a goal behind and then gone on to win the match, a statistic that offers little hope whenever Norwich concede the first goal.

The jury is very much still out with Mr.Hughton. I''m sure everyone very much wants him to succeed, but there has been nothing to suggest so far in 2013 that he is the man to take the club forward. 

 

[/quote]

 

Hooray![Y]

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So saying that we''ve improved defensively is stating the bleedin'' obvious, yet within three lines you are intimating that we haven''t.

 

We''re also playing 6 at the back, apparently.

 

Look, you''ve got a downer on pretty much everything, that''s your right. I can see things from another angle, an angle that you either just don''t get or one that you refuse to see. Again, that''s fine.

 

Every point in your post takes a negative slant, that betrays your comment that the jury is out because it very much appears that you''ve got him guilty, sentenced and the noose tied.

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We have gone backwards in leaps and bounds, yes a 10 match run but the rest has been dire. Too many people looking to make excuses for him, we are poor compared to last season!

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@ The OP - One of the best posts I''ve read on here without a doubt. Very well thought out and made me think about my own opinions a little bit.

Whilst I think CH has been quite negative tactically, I suppose, in a way, he''s had to be due to his/the boards failure to land a striker he actually wanted, therefore he''s left not having the right confidence in the strikers he''s putting out there week after week.

Becchio was a clear panic buy when Morison, to coin a Lambert phrase, "wanted away" to Leeds. Kamara was an after thought once the Hooper and RVW deals looked unlikely.

The one person I don''t understand in this whole season has been Harry Kane. Why? It''s reported that we signed him because a late deal for CMS fell through, but why were we even after CMS last summer when it was decided he wasn''t worth pursuing when we were trying to get promoted to the Premiership? Why was that the level of striker we were pursuing when it''s clear that goals win you football matches?

I do hope the striker situation is put to bed this summer with one or two more solid additions (as well as RVW) to our front line. Then next season we can look at an attacking improvement, rather than going away to teams like Wigan and Stoke and not managing a shot on target, which I''ve found frankly embarrassing.

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[quote user="Vanwink"]We have gone backwards in leaps and bounds, yes a 10 match run but the rest has been dire. Too many people looking to make excuses for him, we are poor compared to last season![/quote]

 

Wow, wonder what would have happened if "his lordship" had stayed?

(Maybe there''s a clue in the league position of the team he is currently managing?)

 

I don''t think people are making excuses for CH - I think a lot of people are making reasoned observations as to why we are where we are. A lot has to do with the legacy left by PL of Championship & League 1 players not having the sustainable quality required for the Premiership. Last year we were lucky to have got the points on the board before we were "found out" (our last third of last season form, if translated into this season, would have had us relegated already).

 

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[quote user="Warren Hill"]

So saying that we''ve improved defensively is stating the bleedin'' obvious, yet within three lines you are intimating that we haven''t.

 

We''re also playing 6 at the back, apparently.

 [/quote]

We have better players than last season, including far better defenders, and a worse points tally.  This season was always going to be difficult, every season in the Premiership will be.

As for 6 at the back...   looked more like 7 away at Stoke and Arsenal.  the back 4, and BJ and Howson played in their usual defensive positions, and Tettey sat further behind them. In fact our full backs, despite being well back in their own half, were in front of Tettey.

And some people are surprised we only had a couple of shots, and didn''t get a single one on target.

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So we were lucky last season, give me strength, we played exciting attacking and often winning football, contrast that with the dross this season has dished up.

If we have improved so much under Hughton why are there so many people criticising him, don''t recall our manager last season being anything other than supported by all the fans and posters, there''s you measure of improvement under Hughton

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Vanwink, you too seem to fail to grasp the nettle.

 

If we''d have played with last seasons squad this season, you think that we''d have had an identical season to the one before, do you?

 

The improvements to the squad have almost allowed us to stand still, in this league, that is an achievement. It might not provide you with the results, style of play or possibly anything else that you would like but it''s not about you, me or anyone else. It''s about stabilising the club and trying to establish ourselves as a Premier League club.

 

I reckon we''re still a long way from doing that, I reckon we''ve got plenty of tough seasons to come, with us taking some tonkings along the way. But our intent is clear, that we will keep improving our playing stock but as I keep saying, you have to improve enough to stand still first, to improve quicker than that will take serious investment and a good deal of luck.

 

Arsenal play good football, they''ve been in gradual decline for a number of years, selling their best players (Fabregas, Van Persie, Henry etc) and replacing them with very good but inferior ones (Podolski, Arteta, Cazorla etc) has taken them from title challengers to challenging for the top 4. Because they needed to improve to stand still as Man United, Spurs, Man City (not so this season) and Chelsea look to improve their stock year on year, Arsenal have fallen backwards.

 

 

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Warren what you seem to have failed to grasp is that management, in any walk of life, is about getting the best out of the resources you have. What I have seen this season is players who were progressing now going backwards, Pilks, Holty, Wes, to name but three.

You can''t honestly put you hand on your heart and claim thatbHughton is getting the best out of this squad, the squad is not managed properly in terms of rotation or subs, players often look as I f they don''t really know what the game plan is and there is never a plan B. My mind goes back to Readingbaway early season, a game that was there for the taking against a poor Reading team, what do we do to try and win it, nothing, just sit back and take a point. We will probably regret not getting the two extra points at the end of the season!

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But the two seasons are not comparable. If they were then Lambert absolutely bombed at Villa. But as it happens he hasn''t even been able to get them on par with the much maligned Hughton''s Norwich.

 

 

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[quote user="Vanwink"]So we were lucky last season, give me strength, we played exciting attacking and often winning football, contrast that with the dross this season has dished up.

If we have improved so much under Hughton why are there so many people criticising him, don''t recall our manager last season being anything other than supported by all the fans and posters, there''s you measure of improvement under Hughton[/quote]

I can assure you there were plenty of posters criticising team selection, tactics and priorities last season.   From the Leicester cup match onwards there was a bad taste there which lasted to the end of the season against Villa - and even that match was tainted with rumour and speculation.   In short Lambert''s reign last season was not the bed of roses people like to make out.   The final outcome of the season was ok, but the methods were often questioned.

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Yes you were a critic last season were you not LDC. But only in a constructive way as I recall, nothing the venom that is around the board now dear boy!

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Is Hughton getting th best out of this squad Nutty?

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I agree LDC. At this time last year City were in a run of 12 matches that included 2 wins, 2 draws and 8 losses. 8 points from 12 matches. I can remember the hopeless feeling during all those losses. It isn''t all the manager, the players have to take responsibility as well. This will be true on Saturday as well!

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[quote user="Vanwink"]Is Hughton getting th best out of this squad Nutty?[/quote]

 

Hard question to answer. If you compare to last season you''d say no. But is that comparison fair? If it is then is Lambert getting the best from Villa?

 

When was the last time we were less than 2 wins off the relegation places?

 

 

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[quote user="Yelloow Since 72"]I agree LDC. At this time last year City were in a run of 12 matches that included 2 wins, 2 draws and 8 losses. 8 points from 12 matches. I can remember the hopeless feeling during all those losses. It isn''t all the manager, the players have to take responsibility as well. This will be true on Saturday as well![/quote]

 

Yelloow - glad to see that you also accept that players have to take some responsibility - not just the management. (I''m pretty sure that CH''s instruction to the team was NOT "Don''t you dare shoot at Stoke''s goal. Anyone found trying to score a goal will no longer have a future etc etc"!) [Y]

 

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[quote user="Vanwink"]So we were lucky last season, give me strength, we played exciting attacking and often winning football, contrast that with the dross this season has dished up. If we have improved so much under Hughton why are there so many people criticising him, don''t recall our manager last season being anything other than supported by all the fans and posters, there''s you measure of improvement under Hughton[/quote]

 

Yes, we were very lucky last season - our cause being helped considerably by being on the crest of a double promotion - in the words of Boris, we felt "invincible"!

 

However, as I mentioned in the earlier post, last year we were lucky to have got the points on the board before we were "found out" (our last third of last season form, if translated into this season, would have had us relegated already). It''s easy to selectively take pieces of text out of context to back up one''s own position.

 

As for "so many people criticising" CH - I think you will find it is the same few names on this board who feel that they are in the majority!

 

Now, a reasoned debate would probably ascertain what the managers objectives were and debate as to whether he was achieving them. We all know that his objective was to keep us in the PL this season, with the limited resources available, and then develop from next year. Has he achieved that objective? So far, yes he has!

 

An unreasoned debate would certainly ignore the debating criteria, try to find negative comparisons with past glories etc etc.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]Hard question to answer. If you compare to last season you''d say no. But is that comparison fair? If it is then is Lambert getting the best from Villa?[/quote]That is a fair question NN, and so far I''d say possibly not (as they are too close to relegation to say otherwise) - BUT, he''s integrated an awful lot of young players into the first team which means that if they do stay up, he''ll have a very settled side next season and he''ll probably be looking to offload more high earners in the summer as well such as Bent etc.Lambert took over a team in trouble with few real quality players (and some high wages to boot), and has spent the season moulding them into a new unit and bringing the younger lads in to replace the failing ''superstars''.Hughton took over a relatively settled team that kept their best players, added more quality to it, but then spent the season trying to make all of them defenders, and it''s now looking like another 6-8 players coming in on top of this (I assume another 5-6 defenders/defensive midfielders, so we can play a 5-4-1 or something).Bearing those factors (and those factors alone) in mind, I''d say that Lambert is close to getting the best out of what he has (especially Benteke who''s now been slapped with a 30 mil price tag if they stay up!), whereas Hughton has made at least half of our players appear to go backwards and played bloody dire football at times to boot.We could argue that this is irrelevant if Villa go down and we stay up, but in my mind Lambert had the harder job to do (and bigger expectations with it), and is close to pulling it off to a large degree. Again assuming both clubs stay up, then come next season and potentially more players (for both sides), I can see Villa finishing in a much better league position than they have this year, whereas unless something drastically changes in the approach by Hughton, I think we could end up being close to the bottom again.It doesn''t make Lambert the ''messiah'', but it does raise concerns about Hughton for me...

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Is Hughton getting the best out of the squad?

No.

-Kamara, although he has played on the wing before, is not a winger. No way. So inaffective.

- Hoolahan has a period where he was a world beater. What happened?

-Becchio never plays.

-Holt always seems so angry on the field. Rarely scores.

-E. Bennett still struggles to cross good, challenging balls on a consistent basis, but to be fair, couldn''t under Lambert either.

-Howson looked a great signing last season. Not now. What happened?

This list could go on. I think the above, especially relating to Howson, is quite worrying. Hughton certainly not getting the best out of this squad.

However, if I was a Newcastle fan, I would be more worried about Pardew not getting the best out of an even better squad, so it''s all relative really.

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"Wow, wonder what would have happened if "his lordship" had stayed?

(Maybe there''s a clue in the league position of the team he is currently managing?)"

.....well I guess there was an outside chance that we would have signed Benteke, depending on how much influence Lambert had on the signing....

As for being ''found out '' with a third of the season to go, I''d say that is considerably better than this season when we were ''found out'' at Christmas, and have extracted a miserly 13 points since then......relegation signed, sealed and delivered if converted to a whole season.....

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But that''s not how it works is it? A season is the good and bad bits put together. The positives could say the ten match unbeaten run means that we should be challenging for Europe. The negatives say that the run since Christmas means we should have been relegated ages ago.

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[quote user="Row D Seat 7"]@ The OP - One of the best posts I''ve read on here without a doubt. Very well thought out and made me think about my own opinions a little bit.

Whilst I think CH has been quite negative tactically, I suppose, in a way, he''s had to be due to his/the boards failure to land a striker he actually wanted, therefore he''s left not having the right confidence in the strikers he''s putting out there week after week.

Becchio was a clear panic buy when Morison, to coin a Lambert phrase, "wanted away" to Leeds. Kamara was an after thought once the Hooper and RVW deals looked unlikely.

The one person I don''t understand in this whole season has been Harry Kane. Why? It''s reported that we signed him because a late deal for CMS fell through, but why were we even after CMS last summer when it was decided he wasn''t worth pursuing when we were trying to get promoted to the Premiership? Why was that the level of striker we were pursuing when it''s clear that goals win you football matches?

I do hope the striker situation is put to bed this summer with one or two more solid additions (as well as RVW) to our front line. Then next season we can look at an attacking improvement, rather than going away to teams like Wigan and Stoke and not managing a shot on target, which I''ve found frankly embarrassing.[/quote]

Well, as I posted a few weeks ago, it appears we had a deal to sign Frazier Campbell that O''Neill blocked at the last minute. Perhaps we were taking Kane anyway for the squad and were left with just him.

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Also, just go bak to August. In the press and on here there was an obsession with "second season syndrome" and strong views that we would struggle as enthusiastic promoted teams are supposed to struggle in the second season. Some thought we were gone before a ball was kicked.

Now, as we it on the edge of the relegation battle, the wails seem to be that we haven''t qualified for Europe. Instead, we should be taking quiet pride that we''ve done better than many reckoned.

Now there are plenty saying a good team has got worse. In August there were plenty saying we were not good enough and had not moved on the way other teams like QPR had.

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The detractors may well point out that one of them was a penalty....but I reckon two shots on target at home against fellow strugglers is a vast improvement on the three recent games when Norwich failed to trouble the keeper over 270 minutes of football......

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