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Tumbleweed

CH must go

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.........and do something pretty spectacular this summer.

 

Many on here have said, by way of justification for the turgid stuff we now witness, that we are "work in progress". I just don''t buy it. CH has done well and brought in some better players, he has spent some money and inhertited a team on the rise under Lambert with terrific morale and commitment. It is commonly accepted that the prioritry was to stabilise the defence, and most commentators believe he has done that. Is this really true and are we now better placed than we were before CH arrived?

 

Well the evidence is scant.  We have fewer points, have scored fewer goals, won fewer games, and have conceded just about the same number of goals as after 29 games last time. We have, by my estimate, received more stuffings this time than last, at least on goals scored. We have lost just one less than last time. So the evidence is not there in the table. Perhaps more damming are the match by match stats which regularly show us concedeing possession and shots to opponents above and below us. Staggeringly despite them being away from home and a newcomer to the league with a  new manager who can''t speak English according to the Beeb they had 15 shots to our 3.  A ratio of 5 to 1!!

 

Evidence on the pitch is even harder to come by. Other threads are detailing this and we see it with our own eyes. I don''t need to cover it here.

 

So despite spending the money and having Tettey, Bassong, Whitaker, Garrido, Becchio and Kamara to name a few who must all be regarded as better quality additions, I would argue that we have moved backwards. We are at the moment a pretty poor, unimaginative and limited team which seems to approach each game like we are minnows who should be proud that we have battled the big boys and wrestled a point out of them. Despite having arguably better players.

 

The question is therefore how will this be addressed in the summer? Where is the supposed work "in progress"? There is no "progress" at the moment. Nor have we really stabilised as both stats and performances are below where we were last year. I am just as happy as anyone that we look as though we will scrape survival this time round, and not actually too fussed that we grind out draws. But am I being greedy in looking for the seeds of progression which will germinate and keep us in this league for future seasons? I cannot find them. All I can think is that there must be some monumental plan to do something extraordinary come June. Will it be new coaching staff? Will some youth players burst through? Will we turn BJ into a rampaging forward attacking player to make Frank Lampard look like an underachiever? Will we spend £40m on a totally new squad? Will we change tactics and actually move forward together with pace as one silken finely tuned footballing machine? Will we approach each game proudly acknowledging our right to feast at the top table rather than appearing as pathetically grateful holiday-makers? Will Grant Holt start eating more greens and fewer Nandos?

 

Hopefully it will be all or some of the above. And hopefully someone, somewhere has a giant master plan for a very busy summer indeed.

 

 

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I disagree with almost all of this;

 

The defence has obviously improved, the number of clean sheets prove this. Going by goals conceeded is false analysis for me - it''s similar to people who say that as Arsenal have scored as many goals this season they don''t miss Van Persie. Norwich have conceeded a large number of goals in a few nasty thrashings, that is better than conceeding soft goals through out the season (which is what happened last season). I wouldn''t say Norwich have gone backwards, but the league is of a higher quality this season than last. The only team in the League this time round who I would say are of poorer quality than the bottom 3 last season are Reading (and on their day they have had some great performances). Norwich haven''t moved forward at the same pace as some other teams, I agree, but with the change in manager and hands being tied by debt repayments that was always going to be the case.

 

Do you really believe this Norwich team is worse than the one last season? Would you rather see Ward and Whitbread back as the first choice defenders?

 

As for conceededing possession and shots on target last season Norwich were the first team in Premier League history to have less possesion than Stoke in a game, and that was at home! Last season Norwich had the 2nd worst possession statistics (only beating Stoke), played more long balls than anyone and had the 2nd worst passing stats (only beating Stoke). There is a lot of revisionist history going on about last season, that Norwich were this amazing team that scored for fun and passed teams of the pitch, which is nonsense. Norwich tended to have two big guys up front and just pumped long balls up to them - or Holt would win soft freekicks for goals from set plays. The latter is a tactic Norwich have kept of course.

 

I honestly believe if Lambert had stayed and Norwich tried the same again they would be languishing at the bottom of the league. So much of the success of last season was based on the momentum of the previous 2 seasons, but that could never be carried forward into this season. Something needed to be done to address the obvious defensive frailities of the club. (Not to mention the fact that 2 of the regular back 4 left on free transfers).

 

The transfers made in the summer (Bassong and Turner in particular) along with the attempts to bring in players such as van Wolfswinkle and Hooper in January show Norwich are starting to up the quality of players they are targetting and can sign. This summer I would expect the club to push on again and bring in some higher quality players. Hughton has had about half a summer window and a January window (which are notoriously shitty for signing players) to work on the squad - I look forward to him having a full summer window to work in, as so far I can''t think of a permanent signing he has made which hasn''t been a success.

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I''m not suggesting the team is worse, far from it. I''m actually arguing that the team is better, at least on paper, but the results and performances on the pitch have not borne this out. Thus, any improvements in quality of playing staff seem to have been outweighed by issues elsewhere. The number of clean sheets is of course good, but as one poster said in another thread we''d hope clean sheets at the other end would reduce, not increase in line with our own! My concern is that we have lurched so suddenly to a different extreme of style and priorities but do not seem to be any better placed, despite the stronger squad, that''s why I''m wondering what is going to happen in the summer.

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I have a lot of respect for Bethnal and his obvious knowledge and Tumbleweed makes his point admirably.

It does seem that local media and many many supporters are airing the view of worry if not shock of the standard of performances. I don''t know about the stats and history can be distorted but we played some truly great football last year reflecting the character of our manager and coach. We are now doing exactly the same thing with Hughton and Calderwood

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I think the big difference to last year is generally that it is a surprise when we concede a goal. I personally dont think the League is any better than last year perhaps poorer. Hughton is still struggling with the balance between defense and attack, I think we need a couple of additions in the Summer and Hopefully we can start to see something more like Hughtons Newcastle.

A real Box to Box Midfielder (Like Yaya Toure) maybe Bridcutt ?

And a Striker to move us to the next level (hopefully not Hooper)

Stay up and this season has been a success even if its not pretty.

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You can use stats however you like to suggest that we were a ''long ball'' team last season, but the fact of the matter is that we were not. On numerous occasions last season we played some very adventurous and exciting football. We didn''t always get the results but we worked damn hard to win the game. Can you really say that this season?

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[quote user="Bury Yellow"]I have a lot of respect for Bethnal and his obvious knowledge and Tumbleweed makes his point admirably. It does seem that local media and many many supporters are airing the view of worry if not shock of the standard of performances. I don''t know about the stats and history can be distorted but we played some truly great football last year reflecting the character of our manager and coach. We are now doing exactly the same thing with Hughton and Calderwood[/quote]

 

I don''t dispute whatb you say but i am totally with Bethnal.

 

Great games last season but also Blackburn and Stoke away, Wigan at home and many more.  Not coincidentally, most bad performances were in the last third of the season when the adrenalin was running out and other teams had worked us out.

 

History is being rewritten with Stalinist intensity.  By the end of last season we were a team in decline and needed a serious overhaul.  Why do you think Lambert left?

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Part of what you say is correct Cambridge e.g. Liverpool at home I think, Lambo dropped in form Holt and the game was poor and we were outplayed. Blackburn away he dropped the in form Pilkington at his home club and relatives there, again a poor display. There is no doubt Lambert was not happy by that time but there were still some games to enjoy before the season end.......Villa at home last game of season I recall :-)

I cannot debate tactics as I''m not qualified to do so. When I played many years ago (Local Senior reserve standard) we just went out to play with only the basic plans including kicking the other team off the park!!

What I do know is that overall last year the football was exciting, subs made and tactics deployed were superb. Whether Lambo/Culverhouse could have repeated this year I really have no idea.

I do admit I have no respect for Calderwood and have no idea what Trollope brings to coaching

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CH must go..... when do you want this to happen and with who?Total SUICIDE at this stage of the season, the second season in the Prem was always going to be tougher.

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The simple equation is that we are achieving less with more this season. That worries me. With very few exceptions we were a threat last year, and we aren''t anymore. Even some of the games we have won we have ridden our luck somewhat, Sunderland at home being a prime example when we should have closed it out but were hanging on for an entire half. On Saturday we should really have been down and out by the time Holt won that penalty. Yet we have better players. For us to kick on and not be struggling next year I''d like to understand how things will change because I am not sure I know what the answer is and the amzing victories against Man Utd and Arsenal just add to my confusion.

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With Bethnal, cambridge and co on this one. Lambert''s only tactic is comparable with Blitzkreig - fast breaking getting the ball into corners early (even when using the diamond we got out wide and put balls into the box), using an aerial threat pumping the ball into the box and letting the tanks up front get on the end of it. We didn''t play intricate passing football.

If anything, it will be under Hughton that we start to play "Spain-esque" football. At the moment we haven''t got players who can keep the ball anywhere near well enough. However, we have sured up the defence and I imagine that over time and with new signings, we will begin to retain the ball better and start to play a solid game, keeping the ball, probing for an opening.

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Indeed we haven''t got the players to play the kind of football that so many would like. As has been pointed out, we were in massive decline towards the end of last season in terms of results and performances and that would have continued this season without change.

Could we really have relied on some of our previous manager''s signings who are still on our books? Howson, R Bennett, Ward, Ayala, Tierney, Butterfield, Vaughan?

You can''t make a silk purse out of a pig''s ear. I just don''t think too many of our supporters realised how many pig''s ears we had.

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Obviously those who have dared to criticise CH and his coaching men haven''t been convincing enough as Nutty Lappinitup et al have not responded yet :-)

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They could be recovering from Aggy''s assertion that we will be playing Spain-esque football. I suppose if you play without a forward as in the 2012 Euros that might be true, but I was seeking to consider plausible suggestions for June/July''s revolution (with the exception of Grant''s diet) rather than something which might be regarded right now as somewhat fanciful..............

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There''s comments on this thread about how poor we were in the second half of last season, and how that poor form justifies Hughton''s approach this season. Some even suggest that history is being revised. The facts are, however, that we won 7 games, (not including some impressive cup wins as well), after New Year last season. We didn''t quite suffer the loss of form being suggested. Those results over the course of the whole season would have seen us survive comfortably. And our players weren''t ''pig''s ears''. They were decent hard working players, who were at the top of their game and were given the confidence to go out and express themselves by our manager.

This season, since New Year, we''ve won once. And we were lucky. Hughton looked the most surprised man in the ground when Holt scored against Everton. We haven''t been unlucky. We haven''t deserved any better than our current results (1 win in 12 games!). The one 45 minutes of quality football that we''ve managed in that period (first half v Tottenham) was undone by a complete tactical retreat and the surrender of two crucial points. I know the season isn''t finshed yet, but how many more games are we realistically going to win. Reading at home maybe? I challenge even the most ardent Hughton apologist to argue that we''ll do any better than that. We have a much better squad of players this season. Some of Hughton''s signings have been excellent (although Yellow Wall- wasn''t Butterfield a Hughton signing? You can''t blame Lambert for that as well!), but this is the only positive thing i can say about our manager. We have much better players who seem terrified to go out and play. They are clearly given no license to go out and express themselves by the coaching team. Our only tactic seems to be to draw free kicks aroud the box, and we rarely score from open play. In fact we rarely score full stop. Take out the freak match v 10 man Man City, and the lucky win against Everton, and we''ve scored 3 times since Wigan at home in mid December. Barely any of our players look like they are enjoying their football.

Yes, we crashed and burned on a few occasions last season. But the poor performances were a sprinkling across the whole season. This season is game after game of turgid rubbish. Whilst last season there were a handful of really poor showings, this season there''s only been a handful of enjoyable games. Last season we went to Old Trafford, gave it a real go, and left with our heads high. This season Hughton masterminded the most negative display i''ve ever seen from a City manager. I was embarrassed to walk out of Old Trafford with a Norwich shirt on! And that''s at a club which has made an empire out of having embarrassing fans. Our away support is ebbing away, and much more of this and our home support will follow suit.

It amazes me that Hughton has not, to date, been under the slightest bit of pressure. It amazes me that so many fans are prepared to tolerate this rubbish. We are watching football which is more negative than it was under Worthy in the dog days of his reign. I hope the booing after the final whistle on Saturday is a long overdue turning point. Perhaps our supporters are finally tired of putting up with this. There is no evidence to suggest that Hughton is capable of transforming our tactics over the summer, and no reason to think that he''d want to do so.

Hughton MUST go in the summer. We will not produce a freak ten game run every season to save ourelves.

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crab - Some of Hughton''s signings have been excellent (although Yellow Wall- wasn''t Butterfield a Hughton signing? You can''t blame Lambert for that as well!), but this is the only positive thing i can say about our manager

Although Butterfield was a Hughton signing I think most of the groundwork was already in place and the transfer had all but been agreed.

It was certainly not a transfer that he instigated as well as finalised.

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