The fallacy of entertaining Lambo v negative Hughton

[Guest]

Excellent post, thank you.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

We are on the same points as Fulham et al. No middle to low PL team gets many points. All such teams go on long runs without wins. The fixture computer has an effect on points accumulation, depending on who you have played at a given point. We are currently the joint 10th best team in England. We have to stay up this year at all costs, due to the huge influx of money due. We don''t have much money. We never have had. Swansea and west brom have consistent models and playing styles in place and have done very well this year. We couldn''t keep clean sheets and had to learn to defend to have a chance this year. Holt is a talismanic, honest, heavy forward who we relied on to score goals. Hooligan was our chief creative outlet. Replacing these two to the requisite level takes finance. We''ll have it next year. Previously we didn''t. Improving the defense suited our needs and our budget. We don''t lose much. We are defensive. We are good at it. We will stay up. Objective achieved.

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

If Swansea and West Brom succeeded by continuing with a consistant playing style, why couldn''t we have done the same? Your earlier post seems to suggest that we *had* to move to this boring defensive style in order to stay up, when clearly that is not the case. The difference between us and them is that they chose managers to continue the previous managers work while we chose one with a completely different ethos.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

The night club analogy below addresses this. Our gung ho approach had to change. We have taken several points from top 6 teams this year, are hard to beat in most games and have a consistent playing style. The players know their roles and what is expected of them. This has allowed for a consistency throughout the season. Survival will generate increased revenues to revamp the forward line, which will allow for playing style progression.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]We are playing to our strengths, relative to the changed circumstances we now have. 

To compare last season to this is fallacious. Let us use the metaphor of a fight outside a nightclub. Two of us note a gang of eight loitering, they are not especially focusing on us, but are feared by others. We are fearless and keen to make an impression on girls and our peers. We spring a surprise and ferocious attack on the group. We have some success and come away relatively unharmed having inflicted some notable damage due to our audacity. All terribly exciting and a famous success.  [/quote]WTF?You''d best go and watch Green Street again.Future metaphors could include"A drug dealer""A street gang""Keanu Reeves in the Matrix"

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

In coaching terms Lambert could cover for defensive weaknesses / a lack of defensive organisation because he had the element of surprise, lower expectations and not a great deal to lose. Given that he is career driven, you could argue that even glorious failure with the gung ho nightclub (ahem) strategy improves his Personal standing in the game and ensures attention- grabbing drama. He had already over-achieved, had credit in the fan bank and rode a wave of winning momentum from lower leagues. Hughton could use none if that. The strategy was not repeatable. His attacking strategy was far more exciting, but the penalties for failure were far less for him. The moment he succeeded against the odds (gloriously and entertainingly), he left because the next step was hard, long term, less exciting and the odds were well against it. 10th with 9 games to go? Attractive or otherwise, a grat achievement that looked highly unlikely pre- season (or from Easter 2012?)...not least to Lambert.

[CambridgeCanary 0]

[quote user="school boy error"]If Swansea and West Brom succeeded by continuing with a consistant playing style, why couldn''t we have done the same? Your earlier post seems to suggest that we *had* to move to this boring defensive style in order to stay up, when clearly that is not the case. The difference between us and them is that they chose managers to continue the previous managers work while we chose one with a completely different ethos.[/quote]

There''s the biggest problem of all.

Lambert was unique. His third generation Clough style was highly personal and very dependent on his personal charisma. Several players have said that he is he most charismatic manager they have ever played under. As I''ve repeatedly said, the energy and inspiration was beginning to run out in the last third of the season but even so, we were never going to replace him with the same.

Swansea replaced the bland Rogers with someone with the same philosophy. West Brom similarly with Clarke and Hodgson. We never had that option not least because Lambert didn''t have a distinctive style.

The irony is that Hughton relies more on style and less on inspiration so we could have continuity if he left.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Spot on. A messiah is a wonderful gift, but hard to manage as a club. Building the players into more than they are is a fantastic skill, but it is almost impossible to maintain for even the medium term at a high level. This is why such messianic figures move on regularly, at the highest point of achievement if they are clever, and try never to reveal the feet of clay. This can be identified as instilling a false - or temporary -confidence in the players. The alternative is the realism of Hughton, whereby you stare so hard in the mirror at your relative merits and demerits, that you are forced to accept your shortcomings. In the short term this apPears unnecessarily negative, but psychologically it encourages a stripped back honesty and a collectivism of a different sort. Every day that you work hard, you must be improving. You have faced your weaknesses and are addressing them. This is very much a long term building process, that strips back any false pride or confidence and the real strength of character. It also fosters a daily sense of earning your rewards. That you are not reliant on luck or inspiration, but that hard graft brings rewards. You give nothing away. You respect opponents and do not just "play your own game", if they have Rooney or Suarez or Xavi or three up front or three in centre midfield, you face it, try to negate it. You play both black and white pieces in the chess game, predicting your opponents moves and defending against it.

[Bill 1,788]

Whar a ridiculous pile of old sh ite you post

 

"This is why such messianic figures move on regularly"

 

er, Brian Clough

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Bad example. Clough was considered messianic, but a famous quote of his is "they come to me full of false pride; I strip them down and give them real pride". Psychologically this is the Hughton way, not the Lambert way.

[ron obvious 1,501]

Stuart Pearce:

"Under Mr Clough, coaching was more a case of sowing seeds in your mind," Pearce once said. "When I first came to Forest, he would come into the dressing- room and say `You''re always on your arse, son.'' I''d go away and think `What did he mean by that?'' Then I''d dive into a tackle, someone would skip by me and I''d know."

[Beefy is a legend 224]

Well said Parma Ham,

It was always going to be a tough act to follow Lambert. And let me say that in none of this do I decry his achievements. It was 3 great years, and I''ll never forget some of the games in that era, being at Portaloo Road for the 5-1 has to be one of my greatest memories of attending a football match.

What I am saying is that Hughton seems to have been cast as this defensive merchant who will forever want to grind his way to 40pts each season, and that we are doomed to miserable percentage football until he is sacked. I don''t believe that''s the case.

City1st, I take your point re. Lambert in the League One season. To say it took half a season to get us going may have been an exaggeration. Perhaps a couple of months is fairer. I realise the results were there after that 4 game run without defeat, but I still think we performed better as Lambert became established and found the trust to get Wes consistently in the side.

Of course, it is far tougher to come into a Premier League side and ''get them going''. There is no doubt that Hughton''s management style is markedly different to Lambert. That is not Hughton''s fault, if anyone has to be blamed, blame McNally. But ultimately this season should, in my view, be seen as a success if we maintain PL status, which we are on course to do.

[writeronthestorm 4]

[quote user="Beefy is a legend"]

Whilst no one wants to see Wes playing out wide, I''m not so convinced that we are being ''found out'' tactically. Despite the assertions that we aren''t playing well, we''ve only lost 1 game in 6, at Old Trafford.

We are still a pig to play against. It''s not harem scarem excitement but it is still proving effective. We have not lost a single game against any of the bottom 6. The results show that we''re not doing too badly, especially at home. At the start of the season I''d have definitely taken 6 wins, 6 draws and 3 defeats for our home record at this stage. The defeats being against Chelsea, Citeh and Liverpool. Hughton can''t be doing that badly!

My point is that however dull the games have been lately, and some of them have been entertaining, we are picking up points regularly and getting the job done. That is what Hughton is here to do. We''ve beaten Man U, Arsenal, Everton at home and drawn with Spurs. Pretty impressive stuff for a guy who some argue is tactically inept.

 

[/quote]

Totally agree...

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

Very much agree with the OP.

 

Also I''d say Clough was the prime example of the messianic manager, but part of the reason he did so well was his double act with Peter Taylor.  If you look at the period when he was at the top, he had a few years at Derby when he led them from the second division to the first division title and the infamous semi-final of the European Cup, then his ill-fated brief spell at Leeds, before moving on to Forest where he managed to put together an odd mix of players and get them all to perform well beyond their normal footballing abilities and win two European cups in the process. 

 

Lambert''s success with us in getting the players to over-perform is very reminiscent of Clough, but it''s worth remembering that Clough''s career tailed off after his European successes (and after Peter Taylor retired).   I think Lambert was fully conscious that he had probably taken us about as far as he was capable of doing when he decided to jump ship.