The fallacy of entertaining Lambo v negative Hughton

[Beefy is a legend 224]

All of those posters who constantly harangue Hooton for negative tactics should do well to note that Aston Villa have only scored 11 goals in 14 home games this season, whereas NCFC have 16 from 15 games.

It just goes to show that you have to fit tactics around the players at your disposal. Hughton took Newcastle up from the Championship with a swashbuckling style that saw them lose only once in their last 32 matches. They accrued 102pts, scoring 90 goals (highest in the division) and conceding 35 (lowest in the division).

Now, I think most would agree that Newcastle had the strongest squad in the Championship that season, and to some extent were expected to bounce back into the Premier League, but the fact is that they did it in style with a huge points total and plenty of entertainment.

That indicates to me that Hughton is not an inherently ''safety first'' manager. Further, Villa''s record this year indicates that Lambert is not all ''goals, goals, goals''.

Managers have to shape tactics around their squad''s strengths and weaknesses and find the method that they believe is best suited to earning the most points. Since the signing of Becchio and Big Kei we are more often playing 4-4-2. The results have had limited success, and my own view on this is that we have a lack of creativity and passing ability in central midfield. Bradley Johnson has had a solid, consistent season and I don''t want to knock him because he does what he does well, but my view is that next year we will need more nous in that central area to create more chances for the forward players. I think Alex Tettey is the best of the central midfielders we have but even he is not exactly known for his sliderule through balls and that is where I believe we are a little short.

If Hughton addresses those areas and perhaps adds a quality striker in the summer then I do believe we will see a more eye-pleasing style next season. Let''s just get to 40pts...

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

Well said. Also to expand on the lack of creativity, I think going 4-4-2 has showed just what we miss when we can''t fit Wes into the side. Johnson is clearly not a creative player, howson is not showing any of the promise of last season (and is now not just an isolated game), and fox has clearly done something to upset CH.

Tettey as yet hasn''t played in a 4-4-2 however being the same type as Johnson, I believe without that creative player in CM, Wes needs to be back in and yes a return to 4-5-1.

Creative central players at our disposal = Wes

[Butterbean_Canary 0]

[quote user="Beefy is a legend"]

All of those posters who constantly harangue Hooton for negative tactics should do well to note that Aston Villa have only scored 11 goals in 14 home games this season, whereas NCFC have 16 from 15 games.

It just goes to show that you have to fit tactics around the players at your disposal. Hughton took Newcastle up from the Championship with a swashbuckling style that saw them lose only once in their last 32 matches. They accrued 102pts, scoring 90 goals (highest in the division) and conceding 35 (lowest in the division).

Now, I think most would agree that Newcastle had the strongest squad in the Championship that season, and to some extent were expected to bounce back into the Premier League, but the fact is that they did it in style with a huge points total and plenty of entertainment.

That indicates to me that Hughton is not an inherently ''safety first'' manager. Further, Villa''s record this year indicates that Lambert is not all ''goals, goals, goals''.

Managers have to shape tactics around their squad''s strengths and weaknesses and find the method that they believe is best suited to earning the most points. Since the signing of Becchio and Big Kei we are more often playing 4-4-2. The results have had limited success, and my own view on this is that we have a lack of creativity and passing ability in central midfield. Bradley Johnson has had a solid, consistent season and I don''t want to knock him because he does what he does well, but my view is that next year we will need more nous in that central area to create more chances for the forward players. I think Alex Tettey is the best of the central midfielders we have but even he is not exactly known for his sliderule through balls and that is where I believe we are a little short.

If Hughton addresses those areas and perhaps adds a quality striker in the summer then I do believe we will see a more eye-pleasing style next season. Let''s just get to 40pts...

[/quote]

Best post in ages. Love it,

OTBC

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Beefy is a legend"]

Managers have to shape tactics around their squad''s strengths and weaknesses and find the method that they believe is best suited to earning the most points. [/quote]

Exactly! 

 

[Howson is now! 0]

[quote user="Paranoia Man in Cheap Sht Room"]Creative central players at our disposal = Wes[/quote]

 

Creative central players at our disposal that directly assist and score at an effective rate = Nobody. This is something I feel needs to and perhaps should have been addressed ahead of the striker situation as without the service, the strikers will always find it difficult to score. This was the role I was hoping (and still do) that Howson would play, but he''s not been put in the same type of areas that we''re playing Wes. While Wes may be able to draw players into the game, 2 assists and 2 goals in 26 appearances is not good enough for your most creative player. *Puts on tin hat for criticising Wes.*

[River Wensums Plughole 0]

I still think that we could do with getting the ball out wide more often. We had Holt and Kamara up front on Saturday and every time some sort of decent ball went into the box we caused problems. The pitch was getting cut up in the middle so why not use the wings more. I''m not saying this is the total answer but it''s another option especially as Saturday when they had 5 in mid field. Also why Wes on the left? Not his position! Bennett would have been a better option. Also Fox should have come on at some point on Saturday. Just an opinion.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

I was all for dropping Wes and going 4-4-2 as a solution to the lack of goals. However all I''ve seen so far is getting horribly overrun in midfield (regardless who we''re playing) and even less of an attacking threat.

I''d love to get to the point where we play attacking football with a 4-4-2 setup as I think we have a very solid defence but at the moment playing to our strengths means 4-5-1 with Wes as the attacking threat through the middle.

Also agree with the point about getting more balls into the box from the wings, particularly when playing 4-4-2. Had heard this was a way of playing for every CH side in the past and with Kamara and Holt in the middle this should be a promising option. however lack of pace on the wings mean both snoddy and pilks have to beat their men and use some trickery to even get into a decent crossing position.

[Bill 1,788]

"Managers have to shape tactics around their squad''s strengths and weaknesses and find the method that they believe is best suited to earning the most points"

 

Whereas in reality we have a manager who is currently trying shape the squad around his tactics, as with having Wes play wide on the wing, bringing him on to replace Pilks.

 

That''s why so many players are looking out of sorts, why we saw on Saturday players not knowing what to do with the ball and often having little option as to what to do with it, with players not making them selves available.

 

Whatever those tactics are they have been quickly found out by other clubs and Hughton appears to be struggling to know what to do for the best. The reality is there for all to see.

 

 

 

 

[ron obvious 1,711]

In reply to the fallacy argument: it was ever thus.

Every time I watch an old Top Of The Pops I wonder where all that crap music came from.

You only remember the good bits.

[Bury Yellow 2]

Totally agree City 1st. I would also add that there is something mightily wrong when the two strikers spend their times out wide. Compare to the Saints two strikers on Saturday who whilst missing chances at least were in the position to make them. To make it worse our two continually went wide at the same time!

It is obvious that these players are playing to strict instructions. For some to continue to defend the coaching staff and just blame certain players after what we have witnessed is quite baffling.

Look, we all want the best for our team and I''m very much in the camp of let''s ensure we stay up, then see what CH is really made of but boy it makes for tough watching.

[Beefy is a legend 224]

Thanks for the kind responses chaps,

I agree that we need to utilise our width better. Snodgrass is second only to Bassong for me in the POTS standings. The thing is, you need to get the ball out to wide men early, in good positions, for them to be effective. Sadly none of our midfield players, given Foxy''s exile, have the ability to play an early 30 yard pass to feet. It really is centre-mid where I feel we most need to add real quality. As has been said, Howson has had a disappointing season. I feel he needs more license to get forward because his strength is going forward with the ball and playing forward passes, which he can''t really do in this system of two holding midfielders. I''m not saying we should change the system because it''s getting us points, it just isn''t the best system for Howson. I think he needs to beef-up a bit too, he seems to be knocked off the ball too easily at times.

The fact is that Hoolahan came on instead of Bennett because, simply, Hughton thinks Wes is a better footballer and is worth putting on the pitch even if he''s a little out of position.

 

 

[Beefy is a legend 224]

Whilst no one wants to see Wes playing out wide, I''m not so convinced that we are being ''found out'' tactically. Despite the assertions that we aren''t playing well, we''ve only lost 1 game in 6, at Old Trafford.

We are still a pig to play against. It''s not harem scarem excitement but it is still proving effective. We have not lost a single game against any of the bottom 6. The results show that we''re not doing too badly, especially at home. At the start of the season I''d have definitely taken 6 wins, 6 draws and 3 defeats for our home record at this stage. The defeats being against Chelsea, Citeh and Liverpool. Hughton can''t be doing that badly!

My point is that however dull the games have been lately, and some of them have been entertaining, we are picking up points regularly and getting the job done. That is what Hughton is here to do. We''ve beaten Man U, Arsenal, Everton at home and drawn with Spurs. Pretty impressive stuff for a guy who some argue is tactically inept.

 

[Bill 1,788]

But that overlooks the fact that we are no more than grinding out results on the back of that unbeaten run in the autumn.

 

So is our current tactics one based on that points cushion ie we can afford to grind out draws that will see us ''home'' or that we have little option as we have been ''found out''. I suspect it is the latter. In which case change is needed.

 

Too many of our goals and goal scoring chances came from set pieces. It doesn''t take other clubs much to wise up on that, which is one explanation for our recent goal drought. We seem more concerned with winning free kicks than we do winning games.

 

Snoddy made a couple of telling remarks on Radio Norfolk before the game on Saturday. I checked back and it was as stated elsewhere, that the players have to stick to the managers tactics, but ....

 

So we are left with the question. Is this a temporary blip to see us ''over the line'' or the way things are for the future. For my part either is of concern. We should be going out to win and to finish as high as we can, not grubbing about like some cowering dog fearful of a nine point gap. If it is the way ahead gawd help us all.

 

 

[canaryfan68 0]

Have to say that these comparisons can be made to look how you want them too, after all lambert took over a team that nearly went down last season whereas hughton didn''t. I suggest we look at the situation in 12 months time and compare then as then you will get a ''truer'' picture. I have to agree with some of the points made but there''s an argument to be made constructively from both sides.

[Beefy is a legend 224]

[quote user="canaryfan68"]Have to say that these comparisons can be made to look how you want them too, after all lambert took over a team that nearly went down last season whereas hughton didn''t. I suggest we look at the situation in 12 months time and compare then as then you will get a ''truer'' picture. I have to agree with some of the points made but there''s an argument to be made constructively from both sides.[/quote]

 

Agreed. You have to give people a chance. It took Lambo half a season to really get us going in League One. He was judged over three years. Hughton is in his first year. He has to be given the chance to get his players in before he can properly be judged.

As I''ve said before, I suspect we''ll seen a more expansive style next season. If we don''t then maybe that will be the time to say that we don''t want to see the Club happy to grind it''s way to 15th place every season. For now, 15th is still a big plus for a Club whose playing budget is probably the smallest in the division.

[Beefy is a legend 224]

[quote user="canaryfan68"]Have to say that these comparisons can be made to look how you want them too, after all lambert took over a team that nearly went down last season whereas hughton didn''t. I suggest we look at the situation in 12 months time and compare then as then you will get a ''truer'' picture. I have to agree with some of the points made but there''s an argument to be made constructively from both sides.[/quote]

 

Agreed. You have to give people a chance. It took Lambo half a season to really get us going in League One. He was judged over three years. Hughton is in his first year. He has to be given the chance to get his players in before he can properly be judged. Most of his signings have been what I would deem ''successes'' - Bassong, Garrido, Bunn, Turner, Snodgrass, Tettey.

As I''ve said before, I suspect we''ll seen a more expansive style next season. If we don''t then maybe that will be the time to say that we don''t want to see the Club happy to grind it''s way to 15th place every season. For now, 15th is still a big plus for a Club whose playing budget is probably the smallest in the division.

[crab 0]

''It just goes to show that you have to fit tactics around the players at your disposal.''

and

''Managers have to shape tactics around their squad''s strengths and weaknesses and find the method that they believe is best suited to earning the most points.''

 

Well Paul Lambert managed to produce both better results and infinitely better entertainment with those players. To suggest that we didn''t, or don''t have the players to produce a more expansive style of play is utter rubbish. Who exactly did we lose from the squad who has cost us so dearly? Aaron Wilbraham perhaps?

 

''I suspect we''ll seen a more expansive style next season.''

 

Where exactly is the evidence for this? Hughton has barely come under any pressure at all despite the dross he continues to serve up. What makes anyone think he''ll change?

[Beefy is a legend 224]

''It just goes to show that you have to fit tactics around the players at your disposal.''

and

''Managers have to shape tactics around their squad''s strengths and weaknesses and find the method that they believe is best suited to earning the most points.''

 

Well Paul Lambert managed to produce both better results and infinitely better entertainment with those players. To suggest that we didn''t, or don''t have the players to produce a more expansive style of play is utter rubbish. Who exactly did we lose from the squad who has cost us so dearly? Aaron Wilbraham perhaps?

 

''I suspect we''ll seen a more expansive style next season.''

 

Where exactly is the evidence for this? Hughton has barely come under any pressure at all despite the dross he continues to serve up. What makes anyone think he''ll change?

 

Look, I''m not going to argue that, on the whole, the games last season were more entertaining. Lambert had built up his own core of players over 3 seasons to play in styles that he was comfortable with. Again, I''d go back to the League One season and some pretty drab affairs early in his reign - Walsall at home anyone? Managers gain the confidence to play more expansively as the build a group of players and a style which is tried and tested.

I will, however, argue that there were some pretty poor games last season. Man City, Sunderland, Blackburn, Stoke, Newcastle, Fulham away, West Brom, Spurs, Wigan, Man City, Liverpool at home were all games where we were very poor. It is only natural to remember the Swansea 3-2, the Spurs away win, the 3-3 with Arsenal but there were some pretty ordinary displays in there too.

The evidence for my view that a more expansive approach will be adopted this season, is based upon Hughton''s previous record of entertaining football at both Newcastle and Birmingham. That bears out the fact that he is not an inherently ''negative'' manager. And if you think this season''s football is ''dross'' you obviously weren''t at Charlton on the last day of the Championship season under Gunn. Some people have very short memories.

 

 

[Bill 1,788]

"It took Lambo half a season to really get us going in League One."

 

That is absolute nonsense !

 

Lambert won the first two games and then drew 3 and lost 1 of the next four games. From then on in it was pretty much wins all the way ............ without six new players to start with. Check the results for that season.

 

Whilst your refusal to see the blindingly obvious might be admirable for it''s intention it doesn''t help when you post up silly stuff like above.

 

 

[Highland Canary 78]

It may well be a falllacy but as one who goes to away games as well, it wasn''t half good fun. Three exceptional years under Lambert that we should forever cherish.

[crab 0]

Trust me, i was at Charlton! I wouldn''t dispute that was the lowest point in our history. My argument isn''t that our team is anywhere near as poor as that side. We were a joke team that season with joke managers. But even Gunn and Roeder weren''t anywhere near as negative and tedious as Hughton. Incompetent maybe, but not as boring.

What irritates me is the way all of you Hughton apologists are starting to make things up. Pretending that PL wasn''t as good as he was. Pretending that Hughton doesn''t have any attacking options. The tools are there, Lambert proved it. Hughton chooses not to use them.

And yes there were some poor performances last season. It was our first year in the Premier League, of course we would take some beatings. But not once did PL send a team out with the negative mindset that we see week in, week out this season. How many entertaining games have there been this season? Five maybe? And as for the asserton that Hughton is not an inherently negative manager, that made me almost fall off the sofa! The evidence of the last 9 months suggests otherwise!

 

 

[Bill 1,788]

I''m not so sure if Hughton is negative as that he is trying to install some weird ''zonal'' play into the tactics. A notable example was Howson on Saturday. Quite a few times when we had won a throw Howson turned his back and walked towards what seemed some pre determined position, almost oblivious to the throw.

 

The players seem more concerned with occupying some set space than man marking or closing down the opponemts. Watch on Sunday how much we will spend in what''s knwn as funnelling back (towards our goal) than actually challenging the man with the ball. if anyone has a recording of Saturday''s MOTD there are a few good examples on their.

 

The result against Everton was in my mind in spite of Hughton, not because of him. We are seeing a re emergence of the Don Revie style of management and coaching. We need a good motivator and someone who will let the players get on with it once the game has started. As things stand that is not what we have.

 

 

[Bws Cat 0]

"The result against Everton was in my mind in spite of Hughton, not because of him. We are seeing a re emergence of the Don Revie style of management and coaching. We need a good motivator and someone who will let the players get on with it once the game has started. As things stand that is not what we have."

Is that disguised as Hughton out?

[Bill 1,788]

No

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

Its very disingenuous to be comparing Hughton''s season with Newcastle in The Championship, when they were far and away the best squad in the league, and Lambert''s season with Villa in the Prem, where they are probably the worst squad in it.Its especially bad when there is an obvious other comparison, Lambert at Norwich in the Prem vs Hughton at Norwich in the Prem.Its almost as if you are just picking the facts to suit your agenda.

[Bill 1,788]

"Its almost as if you are just picking the facts to suit your agenda"

 

blimey, fancy some suggesting Beefy might do that

 

it''s not hs style

 

he prefers to make them up instead

 

 

[a1canary 0]

Very much agree with the OP. It''s bonkers to abandon the formation/personnel (now they are all available) that made us invincible for a period. Why wouldn''t you go back to it? The problem came when we had key personnel that made it work unavailable, principally Bassong and or Holt. When either were out, disaster followed. But they''re both back now.

All i would add though is that it would be really interesting to also give the diamond a go featuring the following:

----------Bunn------------

SW-----MT---SB------JG

----------AT/BJ-----------

-----RS---WH----AP----

--------GH-----KK------

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,462]

We are playing to our strengths, relative to the changed circumstances we now have. 

To compare last season to this is fallacious. Let us use the metaphor of a fight outside a nightclub. Two of us note a gang of eight loitering, they are not especially focusing on us, but are feared by others. We are fearless and keen to make an impression on girls and our peers. We spring a surprise and ferocious attack on the group. We have some success and come away relatively unharmed having inflicted some notable damage due to our audacity. All terribly exciting and a famous success. 

This is a promoted side, habitually used to winning, with low expectations and little to lose. The general who conceived the plan is a genius. 

In reality, given the numbers involved, and the relative strengths of the group, this was the only viable strategy. 

For oppressed onlookers, this is Frey, exciting and attractive. A wonderful break from the norm. 

The following Friday the two return again to the same spot. Does the strategy work again? 

As per the nightclub analogy, our strengths were: 

Element of surprise 

Momentum 

Winning mentality 

Fearlessness (born of low expectations and little to lose) 

This evangelical fervour was perceived due to the above, rather than real. The messianic Lambert traded on this successfully for one year. Then left when the odds were against the strategy working twice. 

Our "real" strengths were limited to the creativity of Hoolahan, the talismanic quality and forceful presence of holt and the defiance of Ruddy. Nearly every other club had better resources on paper and financially. 

Hughton is not an evangelist. He grasped the realistic nettle and added set piece quality from and reinforced the whole defense with bassong, turner, garrido under the not unreasonable assessment that - a la the nightclub analogy - we were not going to survive using the outscoring the opposition methods of the surprise element year one. 

Whilst this year two strategy is not - and could never be - as exciting as the year one fearless hung ho nightclub attack (or the joyful ascent through the leagues against inferior opposition), it is being proved as a strategy that achieves the objective of stating in the league. This was the one and only objective for this year. 

We are staying up despite playing teams better than us on paper and far richer in terms of access to finance. 

This is a practical achievement that Lambert instinctively felt was beyond the club. 

To most neutral observers in football it us an excellent achievement. 

In time - with greater resources and better players - Hughton and the club will add quality attackers and gradually expand the playing style.

  

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

So how have Swansea and West Brom continued to play the same style of attractive football after their first season in the league then?

[Bill 1,788]

"it is being proved as a strategy that achieves the objective of stating in the league."

 

and there it all falls apart

 

we are currently on a run that would over the season see us finish bottom

 

if we truly are in this grinding out draws for this absurd twaddle about only satying up then why not try to hold onto the draw at everton, what was Holt doing in the s''oton penalty box when we were seconds from anoth ''all important draw'', why risk it ?

 

the problem with the apologists is that there is little else they can cling to other than this conjured up ''jam tomorrow'' theory that can be thrown up against any argument that points out the bleedin'' obvious

 

something has badly gone wrong, 8 points out of a possible 24 ... after we brought in new players