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Bunn - Appeal?

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will we appeal Bunn''s red card?

For me it struck the back of his upper arm, but I only saw this on a grainy stream...can anyone shed any light as to whether it was a definite hand ball?

If it wasn''t do we have grounds on an appeal?

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''Accidental'' or ''deliberate'' is at the discretion of the match officials / referee for an outfield player, and for that reason it should not have been a penalty against Bassong.

My understanding is that the same discretion is not applied to goalkeepers outside of their area. If it touches the hand or arm then it is handball.

The FA rules state that when a foul has been committed (which it was) and the offending player was the last man, a red card should be issued.

Unfortunately it did hit Bunn''s arm, he was outside of the area, and he was the last man. The referee was doing his job correctly by issuing a red card.

The penalty though, that was really harsh. But the linesman gave that, so the linesman is the bad guy here. There is a thread aimed at the referee on here, but unfortunately the official to have cheated us today is that linesman not the referee.

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But like I said above drurys testamonials, I don''t believe that ''discretion'' can be applied to gk''s outside their area..... it is handball whether accidental or deliberate.

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1) Was it a handball if yes then 2 if no then appeal.2 Was it deliberate if yes then 3 if no then appeal.3) Did it prevent a clear goal scoring opportunity if yes then 5 if no then 4.4) Correct ref decision would be to award direct free kick and caution player with yellow card - appeal.5) Correct ref decision would be to award direct free kick and send player off - don''t appeal.It was not a clear goal scoring opportunity so only ambiguity is whether Foy awarded the red for serious foul play. The defence to a serious foul play accusation is that Bunn raised his hands out the way and any contact was the result of an unintentional rebound off his body. Had Bunn gone in hands first deliberately trying to play the ball then sfp might be upheld.I''d expect any appeal to succeed and Foy to find the appeals procedure and subsequent review of his performance uncomfortable.

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If it hit his arm outside the box then he''s stopped an obvious goal scoring opportunity so has to go.

I think I''m slightly more p**sed off with the handball that was given for the Sunderland player which was blatantly in the penalty box and the referee gave a free kick.

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Not only did that numpty of a Lino miss the offside for their pen, but he didn''t give us a pen for the handball by Rose. That is just plain incompetence and I would love to see the Assessors report, and where he is going to be running the line next week. Watch out Lowestoft! (Sorry Lowy fans)

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]But like I said above drurys testamonials, I don''t believe that ''discretion'' can be applied to gk''s outside their area..... it is handball whether accidental or deliberate.[/quote]Goalkeeper outside area receives same treatment as any outfield player under the laws of the game ie there are no rules specifically concerning goalkeepers outside their areas. Not a red card offence full stop even if he did handle it.

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Will we appeal? no idea, depends what they think when seeing more angles.

Was it a red? NO WAY, hit his chest then his arm/arm pit from what I could tell.

but what no one has said is why the hell did Turner put Bunn in that position to start with.

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If Hughton wants to push for an appeal, think McNally would back him:

 

david mcnally@davidmcnally62

Bunn did not deliberately handle the ball. Fletcher offside in penalty incident. Rose handled ball inside the area.

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[quote user="refjezdavies"]If it hit his arm outside the box then he''s stopped an obvious goal scoring opportunity so has to go.

I think I''m slightly more p**sed off with the handball that was given for the Sunderland player which was blatantly in the penalty box and the referee gave a free kick.[/quote]Disagree with your first point as generally an obvious goal scoring opportunity involves an attacking player being in control and heading towards goal.Agree with your second point as this was the decision which ultimately most influenced the result.

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[quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="singupcarrowroad"]But like I said above drurys testamonials, I don''t believe that ''discretion'' can be applied to gk''s outside their area..... it is handball whether accidental or deliberate.[/quote]

Goalkeeper outside area receives same treatment as any outfield player under the laws of the game ie there are no rules specifically concerning goalkeepers outside their areas. Not a red card offence full stop even if he did handle it.
[/quote]

 

I argued that with Michael Bailey on the text commentary - goalkeeper is treated same as any player outside the box under the rules.  To argue otherwise as Pink''Un journo was doing is plain wrong and bad form. 

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[quote user="YellowBlood"]Will we appeal? no idea, depends what they think when seeing more angles.

Was it a red? NO WAY, hit his chest then his arm/arm pit from what I could tell.

but what no one has said is why the hell did Turner put Bunn in that position to start with.[/quote]

Turner tried to clear a ball and failed, however saved about 4 or 5 clear chances by Sunderland so kinda made up for it.

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"Not a red card offence full stop even if he did handle it"

What are you talking about? He was the last man, in which case it is a red card offence 100% of the time, if going by the rule book.

Also, you do realise that you are disagreeing with somebody who has ''ref'' at the beginning of their username?

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[quote user="shefcanary"]

[quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="singupcarrowroad"]But like I said above drurys testamonials, I don''t believe that ''discretion'' can be applied to gk''s outside their area..... it is handball whether accidental or deliberate.[/quote]

Goalkeeper outside area receives same treatment as any outfield player under the laws of the game ie there are no rules specifically concerning goalkeepers outside their areas. Not a red card offence full stop even if he did handle it.
[/quote]

 

I argued that with Michael Bailey on the text commentary - goalkeeper is treated same as any player outside the box under the rules.  To argue otherwise as Pink''Un journo was doing is plain wrong and bad form. 

[/quote]

I think as a referee you have to look at each different scenario on its own merit.

Had Bunn not accidentally or deliberately handled the ball outside the box, Graham would more than likely have had a free shot at goal without a goalkeeper, therefore by the letter of the law Bunn had to go.

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You can''t make that interception with your arms raised like that as a ''keeper. Everyone knows that. It gives the referee a reason to make a decision on whether handball has taken place.

If he decides it has then it that situation it has to be a red card.

It hit his arm so there is no way that would be overturned on appeal.

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[quote user="shefcanary"]

[quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="singupcarrowroad"]But like I said above drurys testamonials, I don''t believe that ''discretion'' can be applied to gk''s outside their area..... it is handball whether accidental or deliberate.[/quote]Goalkeeper outside area receives same treatment as any outfield player under the laws of the game ie there are no rules specifically concerning goalkeepers outside their areas. Not a red card offence full stop even if he did handle it.[/quote]

 

I argued that with Michael Bailey on the text commentary - goalkeeper is treated same as any player outside the box under the rules.  To argue otherwise as Pink''Un journo was doing is plain wrong and bad form. 

[/quote]You were quite correct to push the point it''s yet another myth perpetrated by pundits and has no footing in the laws of the game. If MB would like to point out to us where in the laws it becomes a red card offence for a goalkeeper to handle (per se) outside the area I''d be very interested in seeing it.Wait for the muppets on MOTD to give us their interpretations of the rules of football tonight. £ to a p they look to see if it does touch his arm at all in super slo mo rather than analysing why the ref deemed it deliberate and how it prevented an obvious goal scoring opportunity which are conditions which both must also be met for a sending off.

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[quote user="YellowBlood"]Will we appeal? no idea, depends what they think when seeing more angles.

Was it a red? NO WAY, hit his chest then his arm/arm pit from what I could tell.

but what no one has said is why the hell did Turner put Bunn in that position to start with.[/quote]

Turner was trying to head it back and just got way too much height on the header

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"] He was the last man, in which case it is a red card offence 100% of the time, if going by the rule book. [/quote]Could you show me this please?

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In response to the Op. Yes I would, There was nothing deliberate about Mark Bunns''s handball ( if you call the underarm handball )

There was no change of movement in Mark''s actions. HARSH

We had a number of decisions go against us today and were magnificent. Bassong''s hand ball was also not deliberate, unlike Rose, who moved his arm towards the ball in the box.

Great performance.

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[quote user="QHcanary"] It gives the referee a reason to make a decision on whether handball has taken place.

If he decides it has then it that situation it has to be a red card.

It hit his arm so there is no way that would be overturned on appeal.[/quote]Could you show us this in the rules please.

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I don''t think the club will appeal, as reluctantly it was a penalty, albeit a very, very soft and annoying one. Bunn was very unlucky and his anger shows a passion that not all players have shown over the years.

Bunn was having a good run and has improved greatly, especially since Camp''s arrival. As a previous poster has said, Camp is the signing of the season!

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Agree with you refjezdavies on where it hit bunn I thought it was his arm pit said on the pinkun match report it hit his elbow I still think it hit his arm pit

What happened if it was mignolet think he would have been sent off doubt it. It wouldn''t have been a goal scoring opportunity cause if holt was on the pitch he probably would have blasted it 20 yards over the bar cause he was on the bench maybe he would have been sent off as well

Elbow, armpit, elbow, armpit lets just say it hit bunn on his bunns.

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[quote user="QHcanary"]You can''t make that interception with your arms raised like that as a ''keeper. Everyone knows that. It gives the referee a reason to make a decision on whether handball has taken place.

If he decides it has then it that situation it has to be a red card.

It hit his arm so there is no way that would be overturned on appeal.[/quote]

 

Agree. There is sufficient doubt for the referees position to be supported on appeal.

 

So I doubt if we will appeal and if we do my prediction is that it will fail.

 

 

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I think the fact that we''re trying to analyse the minutia of the law suggests we would not win an appeal. As I understand it, any handball has to be deliberate. It does seem to hit Bunn''s arm pit so whether it was or not only Bunn will know - BUT that is the ref''s decision and the FA will not turn over the red because of Bunn''s intention in this instance, it would undermine the ref far too much.

As for the goalscoring opportunity, how can that be argued against? If he doesn''t handle it (whether deliberately or not), then Graham is through to score in an open net.

As for the Turner incident (which I saw mentioned in here and can''t see mentioned elsewhere) - what a ridiculously poor decision from Turner. He was 40 yards out, why on earth did he think it was a good idea to head that back? Yes he got too much height on it, but as a defender in that situation you play the safe option, or you play the averages - and heading backwards over 40 yards with a striker closing in anyway is not playing the averages. Get it up high and towards the wings. A shame, as Turner was immense for the rest of the game but one poor decision cost us potentially 2 points.

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[quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="QHcanary"] It gives the referee a reason to make a decision on whether handball has taken place.

If he decides it has then it that situation it has to be a red card.

It hit his arm so there is no way that would be overturned on appeal.[/quote]Could you show us this in the rules please.[/quote]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

If the referee decides it was a handball then Bunn, as last man, is judged to have denied a clear goal scoring opportunity by foul play.

That''s a red card. The legitimacy of the handball decision doesn''t alter the fact that once he gives handball he has to send him off.

It''s no different to Turner catching Danny graham up and scything him down.

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The Law in question is under the general Fouls and Misconduct, Law 12. The two critical aspects are:

Was the handball intentional? Remember the position of the hand is of no consesequence in making this decision

Did Bunn deny an "obvious goalscoring opportunity"

 

If the answer to both is in the affirmative, it is a red card.

 

Here is a link

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_12_fouls_misconduct_en_47379.pdf

 

 

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