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spencer 1970

Rudd would consider leaving us.

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Would hope that we''d get a decent enough fee + a big sell on.

£500k + 30% or something, because I think he''ll end up a good champs keeper at least.

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It''s fair enough for him to make the point.

 

I was thinking on Sunday that Camp came in and did a good job for us, it would be a concern to have an inexperienced keeper come on in that situation. 

 

But then again, how do you bring a young keeper on at a Prem side ?  The answer has to be that you loan him out to the lower leagues to get experience, and ultimately you decide he''s now good enough to be the backup to your established keeper, or you let him go.

 

With Ruddy, Bunn, Camp, Rudd and Steer, clearly over the summer Hughton will have some decisions to make on this position.

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I''m willing to bet Mcnally wil sell him for cheap,cheap,cheap. Let''s sell him for £1M. Oops wait, I forgot Mcnasty wants as cheap as possible as much as possible. No ruthlessness in him.

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[quote user="Cluckin Nora"]I''m willing to bet Mcnally wil sell him for cheap,cheap,cheap. Let''s sell him for £1M. Oops wait, I forgot Mcnasty wants as cheap as possible as much as possible. No ruthlessness in him.[/quote]Do you have nothing better to do with your life?

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I understood that Camp''s was only a temporary contract and that he will leave in the Summer.

 

Both Rudd and Steer are excellent prospects and too good to sell on the cheap. It is a predicament, but a nice one.

 

Season loans would seem to be on the cards for the time being. Decent ones.

 

If we were to sell Rudd now I would want £1m and a 40% sell-on. Port Vale could probably not afford that, besides Theo and Debra have just gazumped me in any case. 

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Yeah, not really surprised about this. Don''t think he''s got enough to make it at this level and I''m not sure he''d make it at the top end of the Championship either but I''m sure he''ll be able to carve out a decent career in league football.

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[quote user="GJP"]Yeah, not really surprised about this. Don''t think he''s got enough to make it at this level and I''m not sure he''d make it at the top end of the Championship either but I''m sure he''ll be able to carve out a decent career in league football.[/quote]

 

what exactly brings you to this assumption?

 

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In most walks of life, if you''re good enough you''re old enough.    There is a totally false mechanism that works in the premiership in that you''re only good enough if you are cynical, money grabbing and have a fancy foreign name. Rudd and Steer, given the opportunity would do ok imo.   You have to be brave to give youngsters a chance.  Quite often they will surprise you and learn quickly.   But..............they don''t get the chance  [:(]    They can''t get the experience at the top level, because they''ve got no experience at the top level.   So they have to go to lower leagues on loan where they get experience at being lower league players.   Where is the logic?    Like I said it should be - if you''re good enough, you''re old enough.  Put them in the first team occasionally and let them learn the hard way.    Paul Lambert follows that rule and just maybe he is right.

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[quote user="Ha ya got a loight boy"]In most walks of life, if you''re good enough you''re old enough.    There is a totally false mechanism that works in the premiership in that you''re only good enough if you are cynical, money grabbing and have a fancy foreign name.

Rudd and Steer, given the opportunity would do ok imo.   You have to be brave to give youngsters a chance.  Quite often they will surprise you and learn quickly.   But..............they don''t get the chance  

They can''t get the experience at the top level, because they''ve got no experience at the top level.   So they have to go to lower leagues on loan where they get experience at being lower league players.   Where is the logic?    Like I said it should be - if you''re good enough, you''re old enough.  Put them in the first team occasionally and let them learn the hard way.    Paul Lambert follows that rule and just maybe he is right.





[/quote]

 

Have to agree with that completely.  In my opinion if Rudd or Steer were on the bench they would have done just as well as  Camp if called upon against Sunderland.  Remember against WBA in the cup last year?   Its just at the moment it is better for them to be on loan than sitting on the bench every game. 

 

Dont blame Rudd for saying something like that, he needs game time now to develop.

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I think the logic is that if your young keeper has to come into the side and learn the hard way, he could make mistakes which cost points. Unlike most lines of work where someone can check what you do, a keeper gets no second chances.

Lets say Bunn hadn''t been brought in and Rudd had cost us 3 or 4 points over the period since Ruddy was injured -I don''t think people on here would be understanding about the decision to gamble without an experienced understudy for a second season.

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With the increased income and the upgrading of the acadamy I think we are going to see far more of this.

 

Younger players out on loan as they develop and can be watched in a more competitive environment.  I read somewhere that Chelsea have around 25 players out on loan.

 

What will be the determining factor will be wheteher they are up to the ''standard'' required rather than whether we need them to fill a gap. We are in a much longer game (so to speak) now.  The club can afford, and will be looking ot a few years ahead, as with bringing in the young keeper from Luton.

 

Exciting times and it will be interesting to see how it evolves, and whether players who have been coached in the Norwich way (whatever that is) are able to effortlessly step up and fit in when their time comes.

 

A few years off for most, but far better the money is spent here than having it chucked at some ''Carlos Kickaball'' who stays for barely a season. Look at the effect such concentration of effort has had on the GB Olympics squad.

 

 

 

 

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I forgot to add this (from SWP above), which sums it up perfectly

 

 

"In my opinion if Rudd or Steer were on the bench they would have done just as well .............Its just at the moment it is better for them to be on loan than sitting on the bench every game.

 

 

On loan playing games , developing etc

 

 

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"It''s Character Forming"I think the logic is that if your young keeper has to come into the side and learn the hard way, he could make mistakes which cost points. Unlike most lines of work where someone can check what you do, a keeper gets no second chances.

Lets say Bunn hadn''t been brought in and Rudd had cost us 3 or 4 points over the period since Ruddy was injured -I don''t think people on here would be understanding about the decision to gamble without an experienced understudy for a second season."

The idea of blooding youngsters has gone out of fashion because of the financial pressure on clubs to be successful.    But if Rudd or Steer came in and make the odd mistake, as all keepers do, then so be it.   A keeper has to be a strong character.   If Rudd and Steer are not considered strong enough characters they should be sold. If we want players to come through we have to put them in when they are young enough to learn to deal with it.   Most players have found their level by the age of 21 or 22.    The breakthrough players come in at 17/18 and get odd games at the top level and eventually become permanent fixtures in their teams.  Put them in, get them the experience at the top level and if they then don''t cut it, sell them on.  There is a popular misconception that youngsters can''t hack the pressure cooker of the premiership.  Imo they can, if you give them the chance. At some stage they have to be given a chance at the top level.  The younger the better.

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" If Rudd and Steer are not considered strong enough characters they should be sold. If we want players to come through we have to put them in when they are young enough to learn to deal with it. Most players have found their level by the age of 21 or 22. "

 

That is absurd.

 

They are being ''put in'', only with other clubs. Keepers tend to be older when they step up, and similarly stay longer.

 

I trust the club, the manager and the coaches to know when they will be ready and what needs to be done to get them there.

 

At the moment I am ok with what they and the club are doing, they also have probably a bit more first hand knowledge and experience than you do.

 

 

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[quote user="City1st"]

" If Rudd and Steer are not considered strong enough characters they should be sold. If we want players to come through we have to put them in when they are young enough to learn to deal with it. Most players have found their level by the age of 21 or 22. "

 

That is absurd.They are being ''put in'', only with other clubs. Keepers tend to be older when they step up, and similarly stay longer.  I trust the club, the manager and the coaches to know when they will be ready and what needs to be done to get them there.  At the moment I am ok with what they and the club are doing, they also have probably a bit more first hand knowledge and experience than you do.[/quote]

Wut was Paul Hart too young to put in the Man City side?   He has made mistakes but is a strong enough character to deal with it.  You don''t know until you try.   That''s all I am saying.  Constantly farming out players to lower league clubs is not giving them the experience that they need to be at the top level.  Its giving them experience to play in the lower leagues.  It might be ok to loan a player out once or twice, but continual loaning out is not development is not imo in the player''s best interest. 

"At the moment I am ok with what they and the club are doing, they also

have probably a bit more first hand knowledge and experience than you

do."

That may be so, but I am still entitled to my opinion based on years of experience with young people.  If you trust them they quite often respond positively. If you don''t trust them, there is very little chance they will respond positively, probably quite the opposite.  

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[quote user="City1st"]

" If Rudd and Steer are not considered strong enough characters they should be sold. If we want players to come through we have to put them in when they are young enough to learn to deal with it. Most players have found their level by the age of 21 or 22. "

 

That is absurd.They are being ''put in'', only with other clubs. Keepers tend to be older when they step up, and similarly stay longer.  I trust the club, the manager and the coaches to know when they will be ready and what needs to be done to get them there.  At the moment I am ok with what they and the club are doing, they also have probably a bit more first hand knowledge and experience than you do.[/quote]

Was Paul Hart too young to put in the Man City side?   He has made mistakes but is a strong enough character to deal with it.  You don''t know until you try.   That''s all I am saying.  Constantly farming out players to lower league clubs is not giving them the experience that they need to be at the top level.  Its giving them experience to play in the lower leagues.  It might be ok to loan a player out once or twice, but continual loaning out is not development is not imo in the player''s best interest. 

"At the moment I am ok with what they and the club are doing, they also

have probably a bit more first hand knowledge and experience than you

do."

That may be so, but I am still entitled to my opinion based on years of experience with young people.  If you trust them they quite often respond positively. If you don''t trust them, there is very little chance they will respond positively, probably quite the opposite.  

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Joe Hart played over 50 times for Shrewsbury before he was at Man City. So he made his early mistakes for another club. Experience is a huge part of goalkeeper''s game. Experience they gain from learning from their own mistakes. Robert Green got that experience playing for us in the Championship but the Premier League is not the place to do it. The subsequent points lost could make the difference.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Joe Hart played over 50 times for Shrewsbury before he was at Man City. So he made his early mistakes for another club. Experience is a huge part of goalkeeper''s game. Experience they gain from learning from their own mistakes. Robert Green got that experience playing for us in the Championship but the Premier League is not the place to do it. The subsequent points lost could make the difference.

 [/quote]

At what age was Hart when he went to Shrewsbury?  In his teens.   I don''t doubt that at a young age (18-21) a loan spell or two is not a bad thing.  After a certain point though, it becomes plain that if the player hasn''t made the breakthrough, he is unlikely so to do.  Its the same in any profession.  To get to the top you either make the breakthrough when you are young or you face a hard slog over years to get there, most not making it and having to be satisfied with lesser positions.   

Rudd and Steer looked to be doing ok but at some point it has been decided they are to be farmed out for extra experience before they can be trusted. The stakes are high in the premiership, but sometimes, you have to trust people. That''s how Lambert worked and he is doing the same at Villa.  Trust people and quite often you will be rewarded.  Don''t trust them and they will almost inevitably think less of themselves as a result. 

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I think as he''s 22 and obviously enjoying playing games at PNE its only natural to want more of it.

The plus side is that if he does well for them we maybe don''t have to sell him IF we get a season long loan for him next year. Then NCFC can asses IF he''s is in the long term plans for us or if we should sell him on.

It does make you wonder that with Ruddy (England international), Bunn (exceeding most fans expectations in recent months), Camp, (IF he stays, a more the capable no''3), and Steer (many who watch the U21/U18''s say he''s a better prospect than Rudd), if our Dec''s days are numbers though....and that''s without assessing Remi Matthews and the lad we nabbed from Luton, Tyler Reading. That''s a keeper-fest if ever I saw one.

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It''s not really about age though is it? It''s about experience. The last time we let a young goalkeeper gain experience with us in thye premier league it didn''t go well.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s not really about age though is it? It''s about experience. The last time we let a young goalkeeper gain experience with us in thye premier league it didn''t go well.

[/quote]

You''re right, it''s not about age, but its not just about experience either.  Its about ability and strength of character.   You can send someone away until the cows come home to a lesser standard league and it still won''t prepare them for the top level.   You''ve either got the strength of mind to deal with the top level of the game or you haven''t.   Andy Marshall didn''t have what it takes and most of us knew it.  A good shot stopper at times, but inconsistent, letting too many in he should have saved.  Rudd and Steer have shown ability and the composure to deal with big matches.  They may relish loan spells and good luck to them, but sometimes you have to take a chance on people.    I''m not really saying the club are wrong to send them away on loan, but players are at this club for a reason.  That reason should be that they are preparing themselves for the top level.  If they are not, they are in the shop window.    Maybe the jury is out on them and the club want to see how they develop. That''s fine, but as with outfield players, sooner or later the loans have to stop and decisions made.  I would have thought Rudd/Steer have shown enough to be able to step in to the odd first team match where needed.   For me its about strength of character and I think both of them have shown they have that.    Their ability doesn''t seem in question.  

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"but I am still entitled to my opinion ....."

 

 

Who said you weren''t ?  It was the validity of your points that was being challenged.

 

 

Otherwise posts above covered most of what else I was going to say, apart from your talk of trust - where is your trust in the club, managrer. coaches etc who have been working with Rudd on a fairly regular basis ? Should they not be trusted, with all their years of experience ?

 

 

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I have to say what I''ve seen of Rudd, he''s a very good shot stopper, but he doesn''t seem too confident from crosses and is hesitant when sweeping behind the defence.

Steer is the much better prospect, although Rudd will carve out a good career for himself in the Championship I''d imagine.

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I like Rudd talking like that he is an international and needs to further his career, that will not happen at Ncfc, ruddy and bunn are set in stone for now. I would keep lee camp if he is happy to be back up.

We have good youngsters but I would agree we need to get them better experience. Forster etc did well by having loans etc.

If Rudd can get a move then good luck to him.

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He could perhaps change his mind if a good club came in with a good offer for Bunn, (-it would have to be well above the £1m we reputedly paid for him,) and Ruddy seems fully recovered and dominant again.

 

From Bunn ''s point of view, Ruddy has years in front of him, and Bunn could face years of bench warming. Could  the latter decide that he, too, would prefer regular football?

 

The future at Norwich could seem bleak for Rudd. Jedd is coming up and of a more likely age to replace Bunn or Ruddy. There seems little prospect of regular selection for Norwich.

 

One final point. He said what he did doubtless because he wishes to play while with his new club, but was it partly addressed to CR. "Do you need me, and what future do I have with you?"

 

If he does well where he is, and they wish to sign him, surely he''ll go. The prospect of regular selection and a good salary would be powerful incentives. As to what he is worth, I have no idea, and perhaps £5k is a reasonable figure. As he is young, I think the actual figure could be decided by some sort of panel.

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The other thing in the young keepers vs old keepers (or any other player) is that ''older'' keepers seem allowed to make mistakes and get over them-Forster and Ruddy both had a few dodgy moments when they first played for us, as did David Marshall. The belief though, was that they would settle into role and find consistency and form-which they both did, the club kept faith in them-as it also did with Bunn-after a few early scares here and there and it has paid off.

 

If a younger keeper makes a mistake it seems fashionable to blame his age and swiftly withdraw him else not play him at all. Friedel and Steer could both play on Saturday-if Friedel makes an error, it would be "uncharacteristic" and seen as a one-off, if Steer did, it might be seen as his youth or that he is not good enough-and I don''t mean from Norwich fans, just a general opinion. Same in all positions.

 

Saints young left back, Shaw-he''s 17, getting rave reviews, attracting bids from Chelsea already of £10 Million plus apparantly-he certainly looked good here a couple of weeks back. Southamptons management deemed him good enough, in he went-to a Premier League side, in their defence, who have been facing a relegation battle-not much pressure there then! I do wonder though, if he was with us, whether he would still be playing in the U-21 side only and making the occasional trip with the squad but not aas part of it as he was declared "nowhere near ready" which is what we are told about the Murphy twins.

 

And it could be that they genuinely not and that in every part of his game, Shaw is leaps and bounds ahead of them-so he is and they aren''t-"ready" I mean. However, it could also be the perception and philosophy of the Manager. Hughton wants tried and tested, reliable, knows what he will get and how players will perform. So no room yet for the unpredicatable. So no Murphy twins, Rudd or Steer.

 

Bunn is another who might be thinking of moving on. If, after all he has proved himself at this level for much of the season, he might find another Prem club willing to give him a chance, never mind a top Champ one-and he''d take that, surely, over sitting on the bench behind Ruddy again? I''m sure there are clubs aware of his situation, status and, now, proven ability in the Prem.

 

I''d guess at Ruddy reclaiming the No.1 spot for next season, Bunn moving on and Camp staying put as the experienced number 2-infact I am sure he was brought in to replace Bunn, long term. As for Rudd-season long loan next time out seems the most likely scenario. I would imagine a lot of things will fall into place and become very clear (Garrido-sign or not for example) as soon as the club knows, for certain, where we''ll be next season. A lot of fans are convinced we''re safe already but I bet the club won''t assume that until its absolutely certain. But then we''ll start to see the bigger picture unfold.

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