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[quote user="JF"]Couldnt have done to well at Newcastle jas cos he got sacked. I believe we will be fine this season and we could easily finish top 12, but if we do it doesnt mean these problems dont exist, we are completely inaffective going forward and he must address that, if he doesnt then maybe our board will decide he isnt the man to take us forward, the same as newcastles did.[/quote]

 

Maybe they will. Who knows. But if they don''t what then?

 

Just how far did you expect the momentum to take us had Lambert stayed? I''m struggling with this. Despite Lambert having spent much of January''s budget on a central defender Hughton decided to spend much of the summer budget on two. Is this because he couldn''t motivate the central defenders he inherited or is it because they weren''t good enough?

 

 

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The momentum arguement has gone it ran put last season.iIf we stay up next year he will have the biggest transfer budget in our history, a chance to bring in some real quality and i for one am exited to see who we bring in. Hopefully for all of us he can build his team and make them perorm but i and many others worry that he hadnt got anything more in his locker than being a defensive manager.

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YellowBlood wrote the following post at 2013-04-01 7:52 PM:

He can only work with what he has got.

Hughton brought in Becchio and Kamara, and got rid of Vaughan, Martin and Morrison - and he doesn''t fancy Jackson - so he made the choices to work with what he has got and play the tactics that he does - and week after week it doesn''t work at all - the goals for column proves exa cult that.

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[quote user="JF"]The momentum arguement has gone it ran put last season.iIf we stay up next year he will have the biggest transfer budget in our history, a chance to bring in some real quality and i for one am exited to see who we bring in. Hopefully for all of us he can build his team and make them perorm but i and many others worry that he hadnt got anything more in his locker than being a defensive manager.[/quote]

 

The problem with that massive transfer budget is that all the other teams have it too. So how does that give us an advantage. We will never be better off than we are now unless the fair play rules make for a level playing field or we get more funds from elsewhere.

 

 

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Swansea and west brom manage just fine on a similar budget.

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"He can only work with what he has got"

Of that there is no doubt. But, and here it is, it''s what you manage to create with what you have got is how you measure a manager. A good manager will motivate his team and get the players playing with confidence at their best, that is his job. Since Christmas the whole team has lost confidence and direction, the forward thinking players have lost their positivity going forward and we rarely look like we will score.

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And another point on the "he can only work with what he has got" comment... how comes the players here from last season were more effective then? The ones that weren''t here were the Manager''s purchases. So don''t give me that rubbish, as the players we have at the moment are effective enough if used correctly and motivated/trained the right way.  The truth is we have gone backwards, not forwards under Hughton. We are on less points than last season and, more worryingly, playing worse football. That is the reason why so many supporters aren''t happy. It is not just about survival, it is about competing. That is why I, amongst many others, travel home and away. So don''t be so naive and just accept a decline to mediocrity! I''m certain we will survive this season, but something urgently needs to be done before next season to improve our situation.

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[quote user="JF"]Swansea and west brom manage just fine on a similar budget.[/quote]

 

So do we don''t we?

 

Or do you think that Swansea and West Brom won''t be scrapping for points to survive next season?

 

Perhaps there will be different teams to hold up next season. But the bottom line is that the wealth of the clubs is reflected in the finishing positions. Last season and so far this season we have over achieved.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

 

Hughton isn''t Lambert. Somethings were better under Lambert and some better under Hughton. We may not have gone to the DW and not scored but equally Man U and Arse wouldn''t have come here and not scored. We had no choice but replace Lambert after he left.

 

[/quote]

 

It is probably time to reveal the true* story behind Lambert''s departure. He didn''t walk out; he was sacked for disobeying orders. Bowkett and McNally drew up this seven-year plan which included promotion to the Premier League, followed by immediate relegation. Lambert went along with the first part with promotion but then ignored instructions by keeping us up. What he didn''t know was that the directors - who''d made some unwise use of club funds during the Ebor meeting at York - needed us to be relegated because, under the terms of the loan refinancing, that gave us three extra years in which to pay off our debts.

---

* "true" in the sense of wholly fictitious.

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Hughton picked up a team that had over performed last season and had to do enough to keep us up to have achieved his goal this year. There will be many reasons why Lambert went but one of them will certainly be that he felt the squad had gone as far as it could, this year was always going to be tough and when we stay up it will be job done, we could still finish comfortably mid table, which I actually think we will.

On that basis I judge Chris Hughton to have been a success. He has money to spend and I trust him to spend it wisely. Hold fire on you judgement till this time next year, My belief is that by then we will be comfortable mid table, we will have seen some good games, but people will still be moaning that we are not in the top 4. Sadly we probably never will be.

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I think you are missing the point NN. Its the style of football and the way we approach a game that is what alot of fans have a problem with. If you added up our shots on target from the last 6 games i doubt it would reach double figures. To go to wigan and not create a chance or a single shot on target is unacceptabe, and this is happening every week home and away. The club really need to rebrand the golden goal competition to first shot on target, many other teams with our budget manage to play are far more adventourous game, after all isnt going to the game meant to be entertainment? Something thats been missing for some time now.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

 

Hughton isn''t Lambert. Somethings were better under Lambert and some better under Hughton. We may not have gone to the DW and not scored but equally Man U and Arse wouldn''t have come here and not scored. We had no choice but replace Lambert after he left.

 

[/quote]

 

It is probably time to reveal the true* story behind Lambert''s departure. He didn''t walk out; he was sacked for disobeying orders. Bowkett and McNally drew up this seven-year plan which included promotion to the Premier League, followed by immediate relegation. Lambert went along with the first part with promotion but then ignored instructions by keeping us up. What he didn''t know was that the directors - who''d made some unwise use of club funds during the Ebor meeting at York - needed us to be relegated because, under the terms of the loan refinancing, that gave us three extra years in which to pay off our debts.---* "true" in the sense of wholly fictitious.

[/quote]LMAO thats up their with the right hook on Holty, Tierney banging Morrows misus and Gunny being three sheets to the wind on the side lines.Classic.

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Some interesting points on this thread, however I''d disagree with a couple of them.

Firstly, I don''t think it''s possible to judge Hughton as a success or a failure until the season has finished. His goal was to keep us up, he hasn''t succeeded or failed at that yet, the fact is he got us into an excellent position to achieve it and built up a healthy points cushion to the relegation zone, however in recent weeks that buffer has been squandered. 1 win in 15 is greatly concerning.

Secondly I don''t think I don''t think it''s fair to question the player''s motivation. If anyone can think of a performance from a player who hasn''t given their all, I''d like to hear it. They are professional sportsmen who want to win matches and want to be Premier League players with all that goes with it.

The question of confidence is an altogether different matter. Lambert had the ability to take players who many wouldnt have looked twice at and give them the belief and confidence that they were good enough to go and compete with the best teams in the country. That they''d earned the right to be there. Unfortunately I''m not sure Hughton appears to share that ability.

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[quote user="JF"]I think you are missing the point NN. Its the style of football and the way we approach a game that is what alot of fans have a problem with. If you added up our shots on target from the last 6 games i doubt it would reach double figures. To go to wigan and not create a chance or a single shot on target is unacceptabe, and this is happening every week home and away. The club really need to rebrand the golden goal competition to first shot on target, many other teams with our budget manage to play are far more adventourous game, after all isnt going to the game meant to be entertainment? Something thats been missing for some time now.[/quote]

 

You made that up didn''t you?

 

Why???

 

 

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Made what up? We never created a chance or had or a shot on target, Thats a fact. There has been many games recently where the same has happened, Man U, Newcastle and Fulham i think were similar stories of very few attempts. Are you actually watching any of our games lately?

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Is it a fact we never had a shot on target? If it is then my wireless is playing up. I remember the keepers making saves in both the Fulham and Newcastle games. All over this board we have Norwich fans trying to outdo eachother in criticisms. I don''t see the need for it. I think that being 14th in the Prem is an achievement of some note. I''m sure we would be more competetive at a lower level and to be fair think there''d be a bit more excitement too. But be careful what you wish for.

 

 

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"I agree with the fact we straight swap strikers as well."

I don''t always. Against Wigan we did well until Kamara started to flag. Holt came on prior to them scoring. In most circumstances you would say that Holt throwing himself upon an opposition defense for ten minutes would be enough to swing the momentum a bit more in our favour. Arguably it did that a little, and their goal was fortuitous when you consider Camp''s poor handling of the shot.

"Lambert was a very exciting and attacking manager who was reckless, we are now overly cautious under Hughton."

I will never be ungrateful for what Lambert did for Norwich City FC - how could anyone be, but last season I thought we saw some of his limitations, some areas where he yet needed to learn.

We may well remember Lambert for his game changing substitutions - but how many times were those substitutions needed because he got his game plan wrong initially?

We lost a lot of games last season for setting out the team wrong. Playing a diamond midfield and surrendering width to teams.

As for rotating - I think Lambert did this last season for a couple of reasons (note emphasis on ''think'').

Firstly when you have a squad of predominantly Championship ability players you need to keep the opposition guessing on how you are going to line up and who with, otherwise face being ''found out'' like Blackpool and basically become too predictable.

Secondly, to aid with the above, you want all players firing on 100% of their ability, perhaps even playing beyond their average for most games. This means players will need more rest from time to time to ensure they are playing fully fit, fully ready.

Add this to how Lambert is approaching games with Villa and it is interesting. He doesn''t rotate as much and appears to be preferring sticking with a similar formation and line up.

I''d say that Hughton is actually doing nothing any more different to a lot of other managers out there. He isn''t playing attacking football so to speak but we are also not playing like Stoke or how Bolton and Blackburn used to. We are middle of the road in that sense. I wonder how this opinion would change if we converted a larger percentage of the chances we create? Especially some of the well orchestrated moves that end disappointingly.

I wouldn''t mind seeing the stats for how many goals we have conceded late on in games, as to me it often feels like we have played well against a lot of teams for around 70-80 mins and then tire and concede which is almost exactly what happened at Wigan.

It''s why I would say we don''t deserve to go down. In many ways we have played well this season. And from friends further a field and supporters of other teams, they all feel we don''t and suggest that there are a good 4-6 teams that are ''worse'' than us.

People have to consider that Stoke have stayed up for the amount of time they have for being ''tough'' and hard to beat whilst playing far from attractive football. Bolton went down when a new manager tried to change that approach, you could argue the same at Blackburn.

I will agree on one thing, Lambert did seem to get the best out of some of our players - however that can be said of many players under different managers. That isn''t a given, Lambert has gone through most of this season without really suddenly inspiring the Villa team to the same extent. If it was that straight forward Bent would suddenly have become one of the best strikers in Europe.

Sometimes, much like love - a relationship, things just click. You have the right manager, with the right board and with the right players - a bit of magic like that is pretty rare. How Ferguson has managed that for the length of time he has is testament to the man and his club for backing him (although being the wealthiest club in the world makes that a little easier).

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[quote user="JF"]Made what up? We never created a chance or had or a shot on target, Thats a fact. There has been many games recently where the same has happened, Man U, Newcastle and Fulham i think were similar stories of very few attempts. Are you actually watching any of our games lately?[/quote]

Nutty is right.

This might be argued of Wigan but we had plenty of chances, just couldn''t turn them into a meaningful shot on target. However the BBC match report has us having 9 shots of which five were on target. Wigan had 13 of which 6 were on target. We also had 55% possession. And another point to consider, we drew away to Wigan last season, arguably in similar circumstances after having enough chances to have won the game comfortably. This is the premier league, the margins are incredibly narrow.

To say we created nothing - no chances what-so-ever, is nothing but lying, and that would be a fact.

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The bbc match report of the wigan game is nonsense it has been discussed on other threads on this site. We had no shots on target against wigan and every other media report other than the bbc states this.

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And to note the only worth while effort we had at goal was a bradley johnson shot that went wide.

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It was appalling, the BJ shot and that was it. It was a bit nearer the goal than most of his efforts this season to be fair, but certainly sums up why are not scoring goals and not winning games.

But rest assured, all is well!!!!!!

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Check your facts before accusing people of lying.

www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/261870/stats

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[quote user="JF"]The bbc match report of the wigan game is nonsense it has been discussed on other threads on this site. We had no shots on target against wigan and every other media report other than the bbc states this.[/quote]

Like I said, you could consider that to be the case against Wigan. However you have just said that we had chances - what you are therefore arguing is the shots on target - so we had none - but we still had at least 9 chances, something else you say we didn''t have.

Arguably we would have had more if our possession and build up play was matched by the quality of the final ball and shots on target.

Sorry, but it would appear you are simply picking out the bits that suit your argument whilst ignoring the others which totally undermine it.

As I said at the time, the nature of the defeat to Wigan is actually confounded by the fact that we were the better team both in possession and without it for the majority of the game, we couldn''t turn that into goals and a win, whilst a poor Wigan side struggled for most of the game and won with what must be considered a bit of a soft goal to concede.

Had we have been outplayed I think people would actually have been less ''angered'' and more ''resigning''.

But then that has been one of our downfalls this season, even as far back as the draws with QPR and West Ham at the start of the season.

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I see the complacent are resorting to making things up now, perhaps that''s the way they keep their spirits up!

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What a pathetic post chicken. Here is how it was, we had No chances in the match, no shots on target all we created was a 20 yard johnson shot that went wide, it wasnt even a half chance. Having plenty of the ball means f all if you cant create anything with it. No amount of nonsense you write changes the fact we created nothing against wigan. Ps before i now get accused of being a ''pantwetter'' i think we will stay up comfortably.

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Like I said JF, maybe my wireless is playing up but I distinctly remember hearing Bennett and Hoolahan having efforts blocked and Kamara also having efforts on goal saved. But I wasn''t there you obviously were. But I was at the Fulham and Newcastle games.

 

Now why are you bringing pantwetting into this? Can''t we have one thread that discusses football without the childish stuff?

 

 

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[quote user="JF"]Check your facts before accusing people of lying.

www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/261870/stats[/quote]

But you were. You said we had not shots at all, no chances, nothing.

Even if you feel that Sky is the more accurate match review (which I somewhat question) you simply can not state it as fact.

If you want to put together a decent argument you need to present your sources first before you state things as fact.

The reason why I often refer to the BBC stats is because of this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21909250

If you note it includes the match day summary reports as issued during the game by their observer. You can see where and how they consider the shots etc as most of it is there in writing. It doesn''t make it an exact science but at least it is there to question.

Also I note that the Sky report has blocked shots but does not state if those shots were on target. Now I understand that some will be further out and hard to be sure about but I think it is fair to say that if it is a block on the goal line you could class it as a shot on target . . . . . it''s why you may get differences to stats. But you can''t dismiss one just because it doesn''t agree with you!

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